Garnascus Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 @Zelmana So, on the flipside here let me ask you this. "this idea is retarded and here is why" "i do not like this idea and here is why" Is it really so much to ask to use the latter instead of the former? Do we really lose anything here?
Scheveningen Posted March 21, 2019 Author Posted March 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Garnascus said: I kiiiiiiinda want to say i agree with this. I mean it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say "you cant call an idea retarded you cant call a person retarded" when i have literally done the former. I want to say that the bar for criticizing an idea is lesser. "Your idea is retarded and here is why". I mean at that point you could even argue "well why do you NEED to call it retarded" and i mean i guess you dont. I do not really know how to tell people they can get really heated in arguments but you cant say X or Y you know? I feel like i could be swayed either way here. I mean, I think the best way to deal with it, in my opinion, is that direct person-to-person insults should be punished immediately. If ideas are attacked and the language is incendiary, a mod can step in and tell the other person to chill out. If the poster refuses to chill out and continues using incendiary language, that is a rule violation in refusing to listen to moderation/admin staff. But that's assuming I would want to reach common ground with someone who quits the discussion as soon as their reasoning for using incendiary language was getting dissected.
Zelmana Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Just now, Garnascus said: @Zelmana So, on the flipside here let me ask you this. "this idea is retarded and here is why" "i do not like this idea and here is why" Is it really so much to ask to use the latter instead of the former? Do we really lose anything here? Certainly. The idea that my language choice offends someone so much that it necessitates a reporting or ruling process. Refer to my "where do you draw the line" post. This will continue to spiral (as it has been for a few years) to be more and more accommodating to individuals with paper thin skin. Yes, we're adults here (most of us), so sure- they can say "uSe ADuLt LaNgUAgE" but honestly just because I use certain words that offend people does not mean that the words need to be censored. A vocal minority of people being offended by the use of "retarded" "moronic" "asinine" "idiotic" and "dumb". I would understand if this were a specific thing such as "this is autistic" and someone with autism being offended. Being offended over such simple word choice is retarded in and of itself. People need to grow some fucking skin and realize people say words they may not like. By being so virtuous and high-horse about "well it is just not polite" or "i am above such peasantry language" is laughable. To be more direct with your question- They're both the same. One uses colorful language to get their emotional state across. Sure. People have a right to be offended, but they are most certainly choosing and seeking out things to be offended by.@Garnascus
Zelmana Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 A quick exercise in retardation: Now, a few entries on these are for legitimate discussion of the use of the word "retard" (mainly Chada discussing it with people), but the point is still clear. It is a word that is used a lot as a means to apply negative connotation to a sentence, subject, or sometimes person. I am okay with moderating the use of these types of things when in context to individual people. Such as saying, "Garnasacus is retarded."
Chada1 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) Look at the context of me saying 'Retarded', which I guarantee has nearly always been in a proper context DENOUNCING ITS USE. The last time I said it in a negative light is literally in 2017!! Edited March 21, 2019 by Chada1
Garnascus Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Zelm i am going to go out on a limb here and say when chada or i say something is retarded there is a different meaning to when you say something is retarded.
Zelmana Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chada1 said: Look at the context of me saying 'Retarded', which I guarantee has nearly always been in a proper context DENOUNCING ITS USE. Did you miss that whole 16 minutes ago, Zelmana said: -snip- Now, a few entries on these are for legitimate discussion of the use of the word "retard" (mainly Chada discussing it with people), -snip- Such as saying, "Garnasacus is retarded."
Scheveningen Posted March 21, 2019 Author Posted March 21, 2019 "I'm gonna use a search engine to look up anytime someone has said a word regardless of context, just to goof on people and claim they're hypocrites." What happened to you saying you weren't gonna reply? Didn't you shut down and quit the discussion the moment I tried to dissect the reasoning as to why you were attributing ideas/concepts/actions as "retarded"? This suggestion is asking for reform. A reform to the rules and enforcement of those rules to ensure that the usage of slurs is minimized entirely so that it can facilitate for far more cordial and constructive conversation. You obviously don't care, however, you are not considering any other points but your own. This is the most ridiculous soapboxing I've ever seen, particularly because it doesn't even make sense from your perspective which you have still not even bothered to explain yet as to why you believe it is okay to attribute concepts/ideas/actions as "retarded" as your first choice instead of literally anything else. Are you so unimaginative?
Chada1 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Zelmana said: Did you miss that whole At first, yes I did. Then I re-read.
Scheveningen Posted March 21, 2019 Author Posted March 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Zelmana said: Did you miss that whole I think you just successfully made your argument even less agreeable by doubling down and continuing to dig yourself into this grave. Very impressive.
Zelmana Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Just now, Scheveningen said: "I'm gonna use a search engine to look up anytime someone has said a word regardless of context, just to goof on people and claim they're hypocrites." What happened to you saying you weren't gonna reply? Didn't you shut down and quit the discussion the moment I tried to dissect the reasoning as to why you were attributing ideas/concepts/actions as "retarded"? This suggestion is asking for reform. A reform to the rules and enforcement of those rules to ensure that the usage of slurs is minimized entirely so that it can facilitate for far more cordial and constructive conversation. You obviously don't care, however, you are not considering any other points but your own. This is the most ridiculous soapboxing I've ever seen, particularly because it doesn't even make sense from your perspective which you have still not even bothered to explain yet as to why you believe it is okay to attribute concepts/ideas/actions as "retarded" as your first choice instead of literally anything else. Are you so unimaginative? Yeah pretty much. I just says 'em as I sees em. It's like a radar or a sixth sense. Retard sense, if you will. If I see something, and it is really dumb and stupid, I think, "Hmmph, that's retarded." and sometimes I will write that down on my keyboard and you may see it.
Skull132 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Word policing should be an immediate no. The application of policy based on the vocabulary used is not effective, and will only serve to deal with the aesthetics of communication, while still leaving the a relatively rotten core. Further, it tends to devolve into a neat little puppet show, the point of which is to usually demonstrate that, "Hey, look, we're actively moderating this!" while letting the discussion still descend into meaningless attacks, just using the vocabulary that the enforces green lit. I will hold that no one in this community has been banned simply for using a specific word; but rather, all bans over using the word, nigger, say for example, are over a more general context of racism and stereotyping. The latter of which are legitimate issues of behaviour and conduct, while the former is not necessarily indicative of anything, depending on the context. As for value judgement. What Loren suggests would work, if we were a small or a professional community. We really are not. We're a group of dudes and dudettes, who are playing a game, contributing their passion and effort into it to varying degrees. Situations will get charged. People will allow emotion into their speech. If people are not allowed to live themselves out, as the saying in Estonian goes, then they will burn out and leave. This is not to say that constantly getting emotional is okay or healthy, nor is this to say that you can just call something stupid and have it conclude your opinion. Areas specific to feedback within this community have rules regarding the requirements for feedback, and those rules generally include the point of, "Feedback must be constructive." Not only does it exclude feedback that is limited to, "This is a good/bad/shit/amazing/whatever idea," it usually means that if you call something stupid, you must reason why. And we largely expect that members of this community, to at least a certain degree, are able to detach themselves from their ideas and can take criticism in that vain into consideration. So, while it may sound like a meme, this is a two-way road. Obviously there exist edge cases, like constantly just exuding strongly worded opinions or whatever else, but with proper reporting, these will eventually culminate into a mountain of logs that the staff will take into consideration and act on. It may be slow, but hey, there it is. And if it isn't there, player complaint or staff complaint, go. And also make note that you have the capacity to block people, both on the forums and on Discord. Use it, if you find the way someone expresses their opinion to be personally disturbing to you, but you disagree with server staff's judgement on the matter. As for the very original topic. I was about to post what Garn posted initially. Very little of what goes on in Discord gets reported directly. This might change if we make reporting easier and less confrontational. Or we just have to crack down on dudes not reporting issues. I have thought about coding an adminhelp feature to the bot, and I can probably do so over the weekend, though it'll require a bit of thought. Specifically, where would you detail the actual ahelped issue: publicly, with the message being removed ASAP, or over PMs, or how?
Chada1 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) Adding a report system would appease me, I'm worried about liberally using my block in my role as Staff because it undermines the expectation of being DMed with issues, so I see the brunt of Discord, negativity, positivity, all of it. I could just do it anyway if that's preferable. Edited March 21, 2019 by Chada1
LorenLuke Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 43 minutes ago, Skull132 said: As for value judgement. What Loren suggests would work, if we were a small or a professional community. We really are not. We're a group of dudes and dudettes, who are playing a game, contributing their passion and effort into it to varying degrees. Situations will get charged. People will allow emotion into their speech. >Small or professional While the former is, barring some sort of cap on membership to any 'kool kids klub', out of one's hands the second one certainly isn't. Is it professional right now? Maybe not. Is there anything preventing staff from treading in that direction? Only hearts and minds. It's there any downside to becoming more professional? Possibly, but none that I fathom that wouldn't be outweighed by the benefits reaped. >will We have situations presently where people will get charged up, and act or speak in ways that end up being in violation of one or more rules. Staff, I would hope, do not allow this fact of a player's emotional involvement coloring their attitude to prevent those actions and words from being moderated. I can invoke mention of several discord and player bans that were applied because cooler heads didn't prevail. And even an incident where no punishment is given, that doesn't mean a lack of action or administrating was had. So, I ask you directly- what does such a policy hurt, and why are your statements indicative of an apologist for staff inaction, when the concern raised can be tied to clearly evidenced issues that would be solved by implementing such a policy? What is the downside but that staff, heaven forbid, might be made to be slightly more accountable for moderation than before?
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 The cultivation of community standards sometimes means the removal of those who wont commit. If 4chan can ban bronys outside /b/ because they got tired of seeing it everywhere, we can enforce the rules we have.
Scheveningen Posted March 21, 2019 Author Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) Re; Word policing. The intention of the initial thread or anything I've written after that is not to strictly ban the word "retard" or any such slur. If it came off as such; woops, my bad. I'll take responsibility for being unclear. If someone wishes to discuss the word in a context that isn't strictly name-calling or belittling an idea someone has, that's fine, but if it is within those guidelines, a mod/admin should be permitted to, under the pretense of investigating whether the comments are effectively harassing another individual or making them feel unwelcome, attempt to moderate that post if the post is reported. I am not going to again qualify when and where exactly it is appropriate within the rules to use a slur or an insult to express one's ideas, because I have already expressed my opinion in where I would personally take issue with it. It should be up to the enforcing staff member to figure out "how much" they should discipline the matter. I do not care whether a statement is offensive or not. An individual can drop "nigger" (sorry, sake of example) into a heated discussion because they were frustrated - and the only thing I would care about in that act of them doing that is the total derailment of the subject and the eventual, toxic result that happens anyone drops the N-word bomb. Someone could call me that and I would not care. I do not fit the criteria of what constitutes of that slur in the slightest. I am not offended by it, I don't fit in that box. The issue I take with it is that slur was used strictly to derail a conversation, rile people up, and get everyone angry at one another. Zelm can call me a retard all he likes too and I don't take issue with him attempting to apply a label to me that does not stick. The issue I take with it is that he demonstrates through attempting to apply labels to other people/their ideas that he intentionally distracts from discussing the subject matter and the merits of cracking down on derailment tactics and toxicity. As an example, of course, through which he so helpfully demonstrates my point there. Yes, I agree this is a two-way road. Nonetheless, equal amounts of responsibility should be levied onto the individuals who slur-bomb a thread simply to derail it because they don't want to discuss the relevant points in a conversation, and the individuals who were foolish enough to bite the bait and spin the subject onto attacking the guy who slur-bombed a thread. Nobody should care about the slurs and their moral use of them per se, because that in itself is a distraction from the original conversation. It is the fact of the matter that people, whether intentionally or not, use incendiary language to get an emotional response out of people so as to delay reaching a proper conclusion on an issue. This is why I said it is important to be mindful of your words. You do not need to give a shit about another person's feelings. Give a shit about the subject you're participating in, and the conclusion it reaches at its apex. This is a meta subject now, so self-referential that it is ridiculous. Anyway, I'm sure we both agree that too much incendiary language can be a case in itself to investigate, Skull, as you've said. So I won't touch more on how to handle that because you've already demonstrated there's a process as to how that's handled, so that is fine. Yes, I would love bot functions to be able to just hand an incendiary issue to the bot and then the bot hands it off to whichever mod or admin is immediately available. Edited March 21, 2019 by Scheveningen woops
Garnascus Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 @Skull132 i personally would prefer you just PM the bot then it places the PM message in a channel only staff can see
Evandorf Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 @Zelmana I want to preface this by acknowledging that this will likely come across as condescending, but I hope that you take it with the intent it's given; to help come to a better understanding of each other. First, I think you can be very abrasive at times and that similar conduct which toes the line of acceptable on the forums and discord is what causes many of the issues we see. This is why we're saying that users need to act civilly. As Skull said, word policing isn't really a viable option but if the majority of people around you are saying that you're being a dick it might be time for some introspection and self-reflection.
Doxxmedearly Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 I've had to mute and lose out on a lot because of the general dickery of this community. I started by leaving the main discord, which is a cesspool of dickishness. I left the relay discord because OOC became the same. I muted OOC in-game because people just can't stop being awful to each other. I've almost quit entirely. And this is just from what I'm seeing; none of it was directed at me, but it was still just so... exhausting. And incredibly disappointing. There are people who I cannot believe have not been banned or warned for the vitriol they spew and antagonistic attitude they promote, and many of them are staff. "Don't be a dick" is a great rule. It's not enforced. It's not a great look for us, especially with the amount of new players we've had (Some trolls, some legitimately interested newbies). Warnings need to be given out more liberally. It's kind of sad to me that people will still be fine to spew "retarded" and "autistic" as negative words. It's less about people being offended or policing and more about behaving like reasonable adults who understand their word choices have meaning. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, given how online communities tend to work. Still, any improvement is welcome. I hope at least some headway can be made with enforcing "don't be a dick" to quell some of the hatred of this community, but I doubt I'll be rejoining the discords or unmuting OOC regardless.
Zelmana Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 The classic "we're adults" narrative. Good to hear what I was expecting.
Alberyk Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 I do agree we should start being more strict with the discord. As an administrator, I will do so myself, but that would also require people to report those things more as well.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Being able to quickly report issues would be good. Whatever happens response should be a bit quick. Discord turns terrible very quickly.
Skull132 Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 12 hours ago, LorenLuke said: >Small or professional While the former is, barring some sort of cap on membership to any 'kool kids klub', out of one's hands the second one certainly isn't. Is it professional right now? Maybe not. Is there anything preventing staff from treading in that direction? Only hearts and minds. It's there any downside to becoming more professional? Possibly, but none that I fathom that wouldn't be outweighed by the benefits reaped. Oh but there are downsides. First, let me preface this with stating that everything I said applies to both staff and the players -- the community as a whole. Now, let's rewind a couple of years to, I think, 2015. When FFrances was Head Admin. I have no clue whether or not you were around at the time, but FFrances' tenure can be summarized as strict and professional. While it did not cause issues initially, in fact, FFrances' tenure was largely positive while it lasted, its end revealed a few interesting things. Staff had become cold, and communication between them and the player base required a bit of patching up afterwards. Certain roleplay standards also needed to be relaxed. Now note that no where am I saying that staff shouldn't be professional, I am saying that they should remain be able to remain usually at ease when interacting and communicating with the player base. Chasing decorum for the sake of decorum is a good way to burn staff out. From the player's perspective, a similar point applies. First, if we start expecting professional behaviour out of staff, then the same should largely be expected out of the playerbase. This will result in the players getting burned out and exhausted from roughly the same issues. It will also severely damage the communication between the player base and the staff, since the players will tend to think twice about being open about their opinion in a setting like that. This will lead to a heightened issue of cliques forming, and more outbursts over trivial things which could have easily been communicated otherwise. 13 hours ago, LorenLuke said: >will We have situations presently where people will get charged up, and act or speak in ways that end up being in violation of one or more rules. Staff, I would hope, do not allow this fact of a player's emotional involvement coloring their attitude to prevent those actions and words from being moderated. I can invoke mention of several discord and player bans that were applied because cooler heads didn't prevail. And even an incident where no punishment is given, that doesn't mean a lack of action or administrating was had. To say that it is not, is to tell a lie. You will find that the plank you are required to walk will be shorter if we can determine that you are purposefully malicious, versus having a bad day. This is not to say that having a bad day every day and taking it out on members of the community here doesn't culminate in a bannu, but circumstances and history are certainly taken into consideration while enforcing the rules. 13 hours ago, LorenLuke said: So, I ask you directly- what does such a policy hurt, and why are your statements indicative of an apologist for staff inaction, when the concern raised can be tied to clearly evidenced issues that would be solved by implementing such a policy? What is the downside but that staff, heaven forbid, might be made to be slightly more accountable for moderation than before? Once again, I will emphasize: my post did not address the conduct of staff. It addressed the expected conduct of any member of this community, were the policies you specified applied. Where you saw me acting in a fashion that is apologetic is beyond me. Where you saw me address means by which staff are held accountable for their actions is also beyond me, since I did barely touch the matter of actually enforcing policy, instead I extrapolated on what the proposed policy would bring with it. I will also reemphasize my points against this: the policy proposed, if applied in blanket, broad, or otherwise mindless form, will result in both staff and members of the community burning out, simply because they are unable to let loose and relax. I will add, that, where necessary, policy along this lines is already in effect. To a degree which the staff believe to be reasonable at present. Summa summarum, it is my belief, as based on previous experiences and knowledge assertained while doing this whole community management deal for a bit now, that our policy is a good enough mix of shit posting and on topic feedback. If you do actually want to discuss enforcement, then let us. As I commented earlier in the administrator chat, we, as a community, have been down a similar road before. The road of, "How do we get people to report violations to us." The first step would be to ensure that the means of communicating the rule violations are clear. In the case of Discord, this is probably lacking. So, as discussed with Garn in this thread, changes are being put in place to clarify this. The second step is ensuring that people see enough necessary action being taken. At the time, this was done by implementing the policy that the person adminhelping is informed of how a manner was resolved or why it was dismissed. Worst case scenario, the person files a staff complaint, finds out that their vision does not match that of the server's leadership, and either accepts that or leaves. Suppose, I would rephrase the issue into one of enforcement, instead of one of policy. ?
Scheveningen Posted March 22, 2019 Author Posted March 22, 2019 @LorenLuke Please be courteous and do not hijack the topic to angle it into the direction of discussing staff accountability, which has very little to do with what is being actively discussed. That is not the subject of this thread, I do not appreciate you taking a very separate tangent away from what the original topic entails. I would encourage you to make a separate topic yourself in the Policy Suggestions subforum, alternatively you should open staff complaints against specific individuals.@Skull132 I personally don't want admins/mods to become soulless automatons. All I ask is they at least keep courtesy in mind in engagement of ideas/discussion just like any other community member should be held to the same guideline. You can mix being casual, relaxed while also cordial and nice at the same time without causing any issues or confusion. I don't want staff to moderate jokes, but obviously I don't want people who are shitposting with malicious intent to get nothing for their efforts either. It'd be a super tall order to not only expect staff to be professional but enforce the same, bland and boring standard upon the entirety of the playerbase, which would absolutely not go very well. I remember post-FFrances era moderators/admins ruling with the iron fist and suffice to say, it wasn't often very fun to have to deal with that. Re; Bad days. I'm a major proponent that such things exist and that sometimes people get a little mean or start venting over it. However I do believe that such people having a bad day should at least understand they have options to take a break and calm down. I know it isn't always as easy as that, but moderators/admins should at least attempt to ask the person who blew up to see what the context of what was happening, and why it happened, and how it could be prevented from happening again. Naturally, I think if people start using 'I had a bad day' as a common excuse, they should find themselves realizing that the 'bad day' excuse stops working the more overused it becomes over a period of time. Re; enforcement. I would at least think those two steps are the best initial steps towards a good direction. I am satisfied with staff feedback to this thread, since the first step to fixing a problem is recognizing it. If nobody has any specific ideas to post by next Wednesday, this can be locked up and processed.
Azande Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 On 21/03/2019 at 02:18, Garnascus said: 1. there is no real report system. At best people have to mention an entire group of admins in public which... well i am sure you can see how most people do not want to be "that guy". In lieu of that they have to PM a specific person which then creates the problem of "....oh shit who do i PM?" And at this point most people will just tab out of discord. I think i might even be able to semi-solve this issue by creating a channel that everyone can post in but nobody can see? Maybe we can even get @Skull132 to code a specific functionality for the Bot. Maybe people can PM the bot just like an ahelp and then the bot will send that specific message into a staff-only channel on player discord. then we can look into it just like an ahelp. This would be pretty easy to do. Just make the report system go like this: If you want to report a person's discord message, activate debug/developer mode in discord settings, click the ... beside the discord message and get the message ID, create a !report [message ID] command here, make the bot take that message ID and spit the message being reported out in a staff-only channel. The only work required is actually doing the coding required but it's entirely possible and has definitely be done before on servers I've played.
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