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Naelynn

ERT + TCFL Rework

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Hello,

 

you may know me from playing a lot of antags and decent amount of ERT rounds lately. After talking with my friends and multiple dead-chat chats, I've decided to draft a rework to ERT and TCFL.

These proposed changes aim to make the two response organisations feel significantly different and provide the mechanical backbone to achieve that.

 

ERT Changes:
ERT is composed of an elite merc team that has funding for everything. They should be geared with very powerful weapons and suits with a lot of tools. They should have a stupid degree of specialization [Good thing as it is now: Security has it's own specialization, engineering, medical etc.] as they have funding to get any form of experimental or high tech gear they want. Their gameplay should be very lethal - high damage weapons, often requiring two-handing, easy access to painkillers and hyperzine on all members, and each rig should have it's module access restricted to general + it's department [leader rig is broken..] due to this specialization. ERT Should also have access to a unique general rig module fitted on all their rigs that essentially is an energy carbine just better - just call it something fancy - to really sell the idea that even medical trooper is ready to go apeshit at a drop of a hat, instead of giving all ert rigs access to combat modules [medical rig with laser cannon is a meme...]

 - General changes: 
      - ERT-Egun is basically a copy of the normal Egun module, but it packs more punch per shot in both stun and lethal modes.
      - ERT Base no longer has rig modules lying around. They get what's in the rig, make them pick tools+weapons, not do chores and annoy lead by stealing shit from his office.
      - ERT Rigs should have no slowdown.
      - ERT Should have acess to more laser weapons and less projectile, include quad lasers, x-lasers, energy marksmen rifle etc. etc.
           - Laser weapons are more suited for their gameplay, as they can be used in short fights but they would run out of charge an become useless in an extended fight.
      - Encourage ERT to dual weild guns, or use two handed weapons. Speaking of which, increase the amount of two-handed weapons at ERT base and remove some of the ones no one cares about [hello stun revolver and machine pistols]
      - Security Trooper base should have access to tactical shields and chainswords [Esword is a signature antag weapon and shouldn't be given to ERT] to allow security troopers in assault mode to charge into close quarters situations at their leisure. No other shields or melee weapons [outside of tactical knifes] should be available, and the equipment should be capped at the amount of S-ERT rigs available.

 - Medical Trooper rig should have following changes:
      - Armor values changed to 50/35/70/80/30/100/100 [Specializes in laser and energy protection]
      - jetpack 
      - IIS
      - COMBAT actuators
      - ERT-Egun
      - Combat chem injector
      - medihud 
      - Thermals
      - advanced health scanner 
      - Target chem injector [stocked with Bicaradine, Dex+, Dylovene, Kelotane/Dermaline, Oxycodone, Peridaxon and Spaceacillin -> it's not self injector, IT INJECTS WHOEVER YOU CLICK AT, INCLUDING SELF],
      - as well as a piece of experimental gear: Tranq dart launcher [Essentially the tranq sniper rifle in HoS office with limited ammo that cannot be replenished]

 - Engineering Trooper rig should have following changes:
      - Armor values changed to 60/70/20/20/90/100/100 [Resistant to physical damages and electricity]
      - jetpack
      - IIS
      - COMBAT actuators
      - ERT-Egun
      - Combat chem injector
      - RCD
      - Mesons/Material
      - Diamond Drill
      - Mounted Flamethrower
      - Nanopaste [Engi ERT should be able to fix a borg/ipc like medical ERT for organics]
      - Material storage [Literally just holds up to 50 sheets of each mat, comes filled]
      - as well as a piece of experimental gear: Suit recharger [Works similar to Exosuit energy relay - turn it on to regen rig from nearby APC's, something slow but constant, maybe 50/sec.]. When used on another person wearing a rig, it transfer 1k power to them. -> if impossible, then just steal ninja energy generator

 - Security Trooper rig should have following changes:
      - Armor values changed to 60/55/50/20/50/100/50 [really Good overall protection for most combat scenarios] 
      - jetpack
      - IIS
      - COMBAT actuators
      - ERT-Egun
      - Combat chem injector
      - Nightvision
      - Security hud
      - Grenade Launcher [Flash/Emp/Smoke/Frag]
      - Mounted smg
      - Cuffer module [literally just cyborg cuffs]
      - as well as a piece of experimental gear: Assault mode [Makes the trooper move REALLY fast [slowdown becomes -5], gives the suit 90 resist to melee, bullet and bomb and 70 to laser, 500 power drain per second] {Sec troopers will literally be able to sprint into a place and be basically immortal gods of war... for maximum of 20 seconds. Weakness of this is non lethal takedowns, tranq's, walls etc.}

 - Lead Trooper rig should have following changes:
       - Armor values changed to 60/50/40/20/50/100/70 [Decent overall protection, but weaker than sec rig] 
      - jetpack
      - IIS
      - COMBAT actuators
      - ERT-Egun
      - Combat chem injector
      - Multi visor
      - Datajack
      - EMP Shielding
      - Mounted Ion
      - ANNOUNCER MODULE [Literally just allows the trooper to make announcements]
      - Energy Net
      - as well as a piece of experimental gear: Portable Bluespace Inhibitor [Literally just what it says - prevents nearby teleportation. Yes, it's a ninja/wizard hard counter. Drains energy while active.. 100/sec? idk]

Goals of ERT Changes: 
ERT overall becomes more powerful with this, but all of their gear just encourages them to rush in as big damn heroes [especially security]. They should feel fucking terrifying to fight against, and an absolute rush to play as. 
Each suit has a heavy specialization, but also a HUGE weakness - medical is weak to bullets, engineer to lasers, security to non-lethals and lead only really only has extra tools to deal with non-standard enemies. This will mean that prepared antag will be able to snipe each trooper with what's good against them, but must be prepared with all kinds of gear to be able to do so.

ERT should fill the elite-super-soldier fantasy.

 

TCFL Changes:
TCFL should be slower and encourage team tactics instead of an individual power fantasies. Individual trooper should be weaker than an ERT, but they should have tools and equipment to work together in to a devastating effect.  Instead of having departmental specializations like ERT, TCFL should be set according to video game military roles: Assault, Support, Medic and Commander.

 - General changes: 
      - TCFL gear needs to stop being represented as a retrofitted mining gear. The sprites are good, but it shouldn't make people feel like they are getting help from a peasant crusade. Literally just name changes alone will go a long way. The combat ripley is the worst offender. 'Combat' meaning it has a ghetto laser. That's it.
      - The combat ripley should be changed to a different mech - something unique/signature to TCFL they would be encouraged to take on every single mission. This mech should come with an exo equivalent of the Gauss Thumper as a matter of course and move at the same pace as a rig-equipped Legionnaire. 
      - TCFL needs to be given all access. They are Republic of Biesel's military force. Imagine calling for a military rescue force to assist you and you don't even give them access to the security department. This point is without a doubt the single biggest weakness of current TCFL. Janitor access for an army force is a joke.
      - All TCFL rigs are much heavier compared to their ERT Counterparts [slowdown 2, and have better overall protection but weaker specialized defense. They are differentiated based off the color of shoulderpads when deployed.
      - Unique TCFL-only rig module: Military health support [Similar to how leg actuators are just enable and forget unless you use them for mobility, once enabled it will always keep inaprovaline, tricord and tramadol in the user's blood. Does so by injecting 15 units of each into wearer when 0 of each chemical is detected. Auto Splints broken limbs.] - Military wouldn't use too dangerous painkillers like oxycodone as they could potentially ruin the person after their service is over. This module, alongside their generally tough armor, would be the reason why legionnaire's should be feared by antags - they are resilient and there's no easy way to shut them down.
      - Energy Barrier is a standard issue equipment for every single TCFL soldier. All [except heavy support's] weapons can be fired one handed.
      - TCFL should favour projectile weapons because they can stock up on ammo and use them for an extended period of time without having to resupply, reinforcing the fact that they are expected to handle long engagements.
      - TCFL should have access to deployable barriers [These should act similar to toppled-over tables - blocking shots from one direction, and allow peopel to stand on their tile if they don't approach from that side], plenty of breaching explosives and WAY more weapon choices. Deployable barrier has to fit into a combat belt. TCFL soldier should be expected to a primary weapon in suit storage, military or medical belt + webbings full of their chosen kit and energy barrier and thermal/energy knife in their pockets + rig of their choice.
      - TCFL Weapons should have very high damage but lack in armor penetration. Instead, for additional effects look explosive or ion payloads thumper rounds.
      - As an army that's trying to save costs, a lot of TCFL gear is standard-issue with little variance - As such their rigs should feel and look kind of similar and have similar base kit with only few differences to allow for the soldier to do their job.
      - Create few additional Thumpers weapons, all using the same ammo type. Thumper weapons lob large metal projectiles at high speeds, usually using much higher payloads per 'bullet' than other types of weapons. They should be TCFL Exclusive to highlight that while they have raw resources, they lack the technology to make particularly well refined and polished weapons.
            - Gauss Thumper: This should basically remain identical, a high damage, slow firing rifle that requires two handing. This should be in Support Lgn.'s room. It should be considered a standard issue for support Lgn's. This weapon should lore-wise be treated as packing enough punch to just breach tank hulls with the raw mass and speed of the projectile it lobs.
            - Thumper Bolt-Pistol: This should be a single handed pistol. Once it fires, it needs to be cycled like the hos's tranq rifle [manual reload] to really show that it's a clunky weapon. It's fire rate and damage should be lower than Gauss Thumper's, but the damage should still be stupid high for a pistol. THIS WEAPON SHOULD FIT INSIDE A COMBAT BELT and should be considered a standard issue secondary for TCFL.
            - "Hammerer" Thumper Shotgun: Uses multiple rounds per shot and able to be used one handed but makes the weapon only close-quarters viable while one handing. Shoots multiple thumper projectiles and at close range can even outdamage a Gauss, but it's lack of precision hampers it beyond that point. It should only be able to fire up to 4-6 times before needing a reload. It should come with an grenade launcher like bullpup assault rifle has. Primarily used by Lgn's who like engaging their enemies up close. [Think more like Scattergun than a combat shotgun - hits a large area in front of you, but if the enemy is not near you they will at most get hit by only one projectile, at which point you should be using the pistol for more damage]
            - Rechargeable Projectile Accelerator "RPE" Assault Thumper - this should be the weapon of choice for Lgn's who like to engage their foes at medium range. It should be considered the Thumper-SMG. It should only consume 1 thumper round per shot, and be perfectly usable with only one hand, and have the ability to switch to 3 round bursts. However, to achieve this fire rate it works like a hybrid of laser and kinetic gun: It has a laser-gun-like charge that allows it to shoot fast, but once that's expended it becomes only second thumper pistol. It should come with an grenade launcher like bullpup assault rifle has.

 - TCFL Medic Rig [White shoulderpad]
      - Armor values changed to 50/50/40/30/50/100/80
      - Slowdown 1 instead of 2
      - jetpack 
      - COMBAT actuators
      - Grenade launcher [Flash/Smoke/EMP/Frag]
      - Military health support module
      - Medihud 
      - Advanced health scanner 
      - Target chem injector [stocked with Bicaradine, Dex+, Dylovene, Kelotane/Dermaline, Oxycodone, Peridaxon and Spaceacillin -> it's not self injector, IT INJECTS WHOEVER YOU CLICK AT, INCLUDING SELF]

 - TCFL Heavy Support Rig [Yellow shoulderpad]
      - Armor values changed to 50/60/40/20/70/100/80
      - jetpack 
      - COMBAT actuators
      - Grenade launcher [Flash/Smoke/EMP/Frag]
      - Military health support module
      - Optical zoom [ zooms camera out, allows you to see more, doesn't stop movement]
      - Multi visor
      - Thumper ammo storage [holds a bunch of different ammo types for TCFL Thumpers]

 - TCFL Assault Rig [Red shoulderpad]
      - Armor values changed to 60/70/50/20/70/100/80
      - jetpack 
      - COMBAT actuators
      - Grenade launcher [Flash/Smoke/EMP/Frag]
      - Military health support module
      - Mounted SMG
      - Multi visor

  - TCFL Prefect Rig [Blue shoulderpad]
      - Armor values changed to 60/70/50/20/70/100/80
      - jetpack 
      - COMBAT actuators
      - Grenade launcher [Flash/Smoke/EMP/Frag]
      - Military health support module
      - Multi visor
      - Announcer Module
      - Jammer

Goals of TCFL Changes: 
TCFL should feel like like foots-on-the-ground grunts. Their commanders don't want them to die, they have very, VERY good defenses and are capable of locking down checkpoints and securing areas. They lack in civillian specializations like engineers or hackers and they lack in specialist gear, and individually they don't have the raw power of ERT Soldiers. However, a TCFL squad should be very capable to adapt to most situations where they would be required [Most of their work is NOT on aurora!]. They should be slower than ert, but more thorough. Think about how military would sweep a station, room by room, always covering each other's back. Their weakness are things they cannot prepare for - enemies with extremely unusual gear like Ninjas and Wizards, Armor piercing weapons that get through their defenses and hit and run tactics are all something they struggle with. That said, fighting them on their terms, in fortified position or being systematically ground to death in a siege scenario should be a remarkably bad idea.

TCFL should fill the gritty-soldier fantasy.

 

Please, PLEASE provide your feedback. I've tried to account for everything, but there's obviously things I missed. However, I believe that ERT/TCFL should both feel powerful and potentially overpowered, as they are expected to close out the round when being called. Killing either of the two factions should be hard but possible - ERT should be difficult to manage due to their lethal weaponry, ridiculously fast movement [0 slowdown + free hyperzine] and extensive suite of gadgets. TCFL should be difficult to manage due to their resilience and ample supply of military-grade gear.

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Posted (edited)

I disagree vehemently with the proposed aesthetic chsnges to the TCFL. It is meant to feel like a form a peasant militia because that it was it is. It is a plucky all volunteer militia when i created it. We have many TCFL characters who work on station as weekend warriors. 

 

Ert fills the gritty soldier archetype and it does not generate a plethora of creative characters.

 

The tcfl is also reasonably well balanced as of current. Theyre equipped enough but lack access and need to work with the crew (where the ert works above them) to function.

 

I dont know enough about weapon stats and code to comment otherwise. 

Edited by Marlon Phoenix

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I think you largely misinterpret the point of TCFL as it stands and the points made here would make them, and ERT itself, so ludicrously overpowered they would be undefeatable by even robust mercs. Without going into detail as to why the latter is the case, I'll just say that the TCFL's ingame point was to be a rebalance of ERT in the first place, providing an alternative that has the capacity to end rounds without doing this with such speed or efficiency as to totally decimate the flow of the round for the sake of bringing it to a close.

In doing this, I have personally seen TCFL be amazing at what it is. You are not given the greatest gear, but you are plenty robust and able to assume plentiful roles alone, not to mention your capacity for good if you bring spare equipment for the actual station characters to utilize, not yourself.

TL;DR ERT ends rounds in a heartbeat with overwhelming firepower and poor characterization. TCFL ends rounds by fading them out and being forced into interacting and roleplaying along the way. Both do this reasonably well and fulfill their designated roles. Major balance changes need not be made.

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Tbh I actually like the thought of these changes. Especially the lead trooper/Prefect changes. Some neat utility for the response teams. I do get the tcfl was meant to be a balance play for response teams but i have to admit they feel super underwhelming. Think a lot of these additions could add for some serious counter play.

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3 hours ago, Bear said:

Tbh I actually like the thought of these changes. Especially the lead trooper/Prefect changes. Some neat utility for the response teams. I do get the tcfl was meant to be a balance play for response teams but i have to admit they feel super underwhelming. Think a lot of these additions could add for some serious counter play.

You get thumpers and plentiful blasters to hand to the crew, as well as several situational vehicles and two mechs capable of targeted teleportation (through walls, even)

Not to mention, you get a surplus of armor and the same non-combat supplies as ERT. You even get combat chemicals, if you've got a medic to distribute them. A naked bald on oxycodone and hyperzine is scary, now put them in a suit with a thumper and a net projector. They're not that underwhelming - the key here is to be creative, and powergaming with them is basically impossible as you need to seek out nonstandard means to getting what you want.

 

As I said here,

Blasters need extra visual indicators. You'd be surprised to hear their blasters across the board only do 5 less damage than laser rifles, including blasters and carbines, with the benefit of having burstfire, the bolt slinger having a scope, and holding onto the traits of shooting through windows/doors. These aren't really something to throw away nor treat like they're useless, but the lack of visual feedback when you hit someone makes it seem like they don't do much at all.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, kyres1 said:

In doing this, I have personally seen TCFL be amazing at what it is. You are not given the greatest gear, but you are plenty robust and able to assume plentiful roles alone, not to mention your capacity for good if you bring spare equipment for the actual station characters to utilize, not yourself.

Now i'm sad and interrested... i would love to see them work like this... maybe make a canon event introducing them like a recruitment event and point out their strengths before raising the chances for them to spawn. (at least for the newer players)

9 hours ago, Naelynn said:

ERT overall becomes more powerful with this, but all of their gear just encourages them to rush in as big damn heroes

I feel like this is often missunderstood.... they are meant to be the rapid response and should wipe the floor... the way it works right now is 9/10 times they will jump in an throw grenades and fire all they have  without any RP.... if they where very lethal, antags would need to coordinate and strategise... the way it works right now is -> get shot or bomb them to hell, giving them an emergency defense would increase their survival chance, giving them the room RP and maybe catch the bombing to the face. The way it works now is usualy the hotshot ERT who was salty in dead chat will run in and get killed while the rest try to work as a team and the antags just evade them at all points.... again not that good for RP.

9 hours ago, Naelynn said:

TCFL should feel like like foots-on-the-ground grunts. Their commanders don't want them to die, they have very, VERY good defenses and are capable of locking down checkpoints and securing areas.

The idea of soldiers holding their ground is realy what they should be and i feel like the shields already do a good step toward this. IF they are meant to work with the crew and hand them guns for example and organise them, i feel like their attack could even be lowered as to encourage RP and strategy over what happens right now -> They will charge in against the antags, they will get killed or have heavy losses and complain about beeing underpowered. Like 9/10 times people will be in dead chat saying ERT could have easily won this... from a mechanical point i feel like ERT should be the fast killing fantasy and Legion the slow protector types... this is not understood or indicated by most who play them at all. They will run in as cheap ERT knock off going for the valids like it's christmas and both sides will be pretty annoyed that they did not manage to do the thing when in fact their thing should be something else alltogether.

I'm sadly/gladly not a number expert, i suck at combat, i feel like we should make the distinction between the two clear, maybe give command the choice who to call in -> ERT will do their thing without any care for command or crew while the Legion might put the crew over command or something... it would make them more attractive from an IC point and open the chance to call them earlier without feeling like a round ending thing. I see the legion durring a rev round taking sides since they got called in early and i have an amazing RP round in front of my inner eye.

9 hours ago, Naelynn said:

Each suit has a heavy specialization, but also a HUGE weakness - medical is weak to bullets, engineer to lasers, security to non-lethals and lead only really only has extra tools to deal with non-standard enemies. This will mean that prepared antag will be able to snipe each trooper with what's good against them, but must be prepared with all kinds of gear to be able to do so.

Please please please. I cannot realy evaluate the numbers on this but i feel like an ERT with an engineer and a medic should be more usefull than just the basic grunts. I've had so many rounds where there where 4 ERT soldiers getting shredded because the players did not know how to play a soldier and where very unrobust, leading to the moment where they all or most are in the medbay... making them the perfect target for the antags and risking all of the crew nearby. We had lowpops where we would call in an engineering ERT to start the engine... we should have one if the antags heavily try to manipulate the engine or most of medical is dead, we call in the doctor who can defend himself... make the roles valuable, interresting to play, and more carefull to play as. If you ever seen an engineer or medical ERT running at the front of the formation, gunning down cultists, you know what i mean with this.

8 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Theyre equipped enough but lack access and need to work with the crew

Give them one emag for emergencies, like command is dead, they need to enter the bridge, as soldiers they got a handy tool for that which will just rip the door apart.

Also as written above, we need to point that out a lot more... i feel like i should play with the legion more to figure out how to use them. We need to change the opinion from "oh they send in the mercs to save money" to "Hell yeah, legion will helps us, help ourselves"... 

9 hours ago, Naelynn said:

Unique TCFL-only rig module: Military health support

I will +1 this any day. They are volunteers with combat gear. Give them easy to use, high payout modules. Make them easier to play so newer players can hop in and help out. What i've seen was ERT getting filled by grizzled or salty dead folks who knew how to punish the antags. Make the legion open for people who do support roles and want to RP.

 

TLDR: Make Legion great again. Do so via RP since i got no clue about the numbers. Make ERT more specialised (at least the support roles) and give newer people an easier entry into the Legion via the proposed module. :)

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11 hours ago, Naelynn said:


      - TCFL needs to be given all access. They are Republic of Biesel's military force. Imagine calling for a military rescue force to assist you and you don't even give them access to the security department. This point is without a doubt the single biggest weakness of current TCFL. Janitor access for an army force is a joke.
   

Actually, they have less than janitor access. Janitors get basic departmental access + maintenance access. TCFL just have maintenance and I really do believe they should have at least janitor access for getting into SOME parts of the station during emergencies. But that's irrelevant.

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17 hours ago, kyres1 said:

You get thumpers and plentiful blasters

Not really. This only works out when there's one or two TCFL. But then you need to try and balance carrying all this shit to the station, since the only option you have for EVA is a hardsuit meaning you lose your backpack slot, so now you need to carry your bags in your hand, plus your own gun in your suit storage space. Really, TCFL need a light light voidsuit.

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I only want to comment on the access part for now - do not give them all access. Or any more access as it is right now. They are a third party and government ord not, NT would NEVER give a third party all access/any advanced access or access at all to their facilities. Civilian access is what they should have and live with.

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7 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

I only want to comment on the access part for now - do not give them all access. Or any more access as it is right now. They are a third party and government ord not, NT would NEVER give a third party all access/any advanced access or access at all to their facilities. Civilian access is what they should have and live with.

Just give them Sec Officer access. They're about on the same level of trust in regards to putting themselves in harm's way. And at the same level of trust with Research and Command crap.

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There's a lot to read here, but I think I get the jist. Tbh, I think the Specialist TCFL should wear lighter RIGs, with low armor, but faster movement. The standard trooper and Prefect can share the current suit, but just change what the suits come with. Add in more blasters, add some sort of light ballistic rifle alongside the thumper, add in a voidsuit to be worn by crew militia or whatever. Can we please add some sort of TCFL clause where they can go "YOU HAVE BEEN RECRUITED" or something and it holds actual weight

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5 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

I only want to comment on the access part for now - do not give them all access. Or any more access as it is right now. They are a third party and government ord not, NT would NEVER give a third party all access/any advanced access or access at all to their facilities. Civilian access is what they should have and live with.

this is a point I will not budge on.

Antags are notorious for gaining access to the station by multiple means - captain's id, emagging places, hell, just hacking doors works.

Assuming low pop where the regularly is not command/ai, is the army supposed to just leave the hostile alone in the bridge..? Hell, not even bridge, how about RD's office?  Or HoS's? What if there was command but it got killed? What if they have a hostage? Or what if you run them down into maintenance, and they just .. close the door behind themselves and you're stuck for rest of the round [Like what happened to me when I was keeping Kyres's ninja from rest of the crew]?

When you call on a military force to assist you in a CRISIS you help them as much as you can. I repeat, they are the Republic of Biesel's military force, THEY ARE BOUND BY LAW AND BIESEL IS LIABLE FOR HOW THEY ACT. If a TCFL will go on to intentionally destroy the station or steal things, there are about a billion security cameras on aurora recording -everything- as well as all tcfl gear being simply too different from anything they could grab on aurora, so they'd be spotted immediately.

 

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5 hours ago, ben10083 said:

@Naelynn Regarding ERT, does your proposed change have it removed from NT and more of a elite merc team?

It already is an elite merc team, just hired by NT - ERT 'Phoenix'

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20 hours ago, Naelynn said:

It already is an elite merc team, just hired by NT - ERT 'Phoenix'

Lmfao, no. It's internal. It's not a contracted group of mercenaries, it's essentially a militarized corporate task force meant to enforce NT's policies.

TCFL is the "merc team," and even at that, they're not necessarily "elite" as much as savvy and well-versed.

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Okay, help me out here. 

What do you call an armed force that lends its services for money and is not subjected to any government?

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Posted (edited)

It's a contracted group of mercenaries. An armed force under services of a for-profit corporation is mercenary.

The TCFL are a militia, and are government ran and ordered.

Edited by Marlon Phoenix

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2 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

It's a contracted group of mercenaries. An armed force under services of a for-profit corporation is mercenary.

The TCFL are a militia, and are government ran and ordered.

THANK YOU.

So why exactly is it that when call for help is sent and TCFL is sent in, they are -supposedly- to bring extra weapons to hand out to the crew? THEY HAVE RIGS, WHERE ARE THEY GONNA CARRY THEM? MORE TO THE POINT: Quoting DIRECTLY FROM THE WIKI: "4) Don't ask incoming Legionnaires to give you weapons or gear when they're coming in. You can help in your current job by doing that job - or staying out of the way unless asked." https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Tau_Ceti_Foreign_Legion

I would -REALLY- appreciate if people who are ignorant of what the server rules regarding ert/tcfl would stop butting in without prior research on what those organizations are.

Furthermore, I would ALSO appreciate if people realized that response teams are sent in to PROTECT CIVILIAN LIVES. So it definitely makes a lot of sense to give those same people weapons and send them at the antagonists without any training, yeah. /s

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On 09/07/2019 at 23:15, kyres1 said:

I think you largely misinterpret the point of TCFL as it stands and the points made here would make them, and ERT itself, so ludicrously overpowered they would be undefeatable by even robust mercs. Without going into detail as to why the latter is the case, I'll just say that the TCFL's ingame point was to be a rebalance of ERT in the first place, providing an alternative that has the capacity to end rounds without doing this with such speed or efficiency as to totally decimate the flow of the round for the sake of bringing it to a close.

In doing this, I have personally seen TCFL be amazing at what it is. You are not given the greatest gear, but you are plenty robust and able to assume plentiful roles alone, not to mention your capacity for good if you bring spare equipment for the actual station characters to utilize, not yourself.

TL;DR ERT ends rounds in a heartbeat with overwhelming firepower and poor characterization. TCFL ends rounds by fading them out and being forced into interacting and roleplaying along the way. Both do this reasonably well and fulfill their designated roles. Major balance changes need not be made.


- Undefeatable = actually giving ert them weaknesses to abuse unlike now where they have really fooken good protection all 'round. Yeah. Sure.
- You said it yourself, response teams are meant to end the rounds in one way or another, so why is one treated as a joke by the community and the other as serious business? Like it or not, but as far as the community is concerned, TCFL is a joke. If you have more than 4 legionnaires, there is not enough weapons to stock them proper on everything they want. If you have less than that, you're not enough in numbers to do anything without SEVERE robustness on your part. 
- This rework's major purpose is to actually make TCFL feel like an ARMY. I can't stress this enough - they feel like a peasant crusade, they are the laughingstock of the station, THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO THE SECURITY DEPARTMENT. A TCFL Team can be defeated by a SINGLE MAINTENANCE DOOR. [Like it happened to me when I was solo TCFL into Kyres's Ninja. I got locked in bridge maintenance just as crew transfer landed. No ai, one command staff who refused to get me out. - It was the round where Odysseus teleport+slurped you.]

The reason why ERT ends the rounds in a heartbeat is BECAUSE OF THEM BEING TOO WELL ROUNDED - Too good all-round armor, too good selection of all types of weapons, too large customization of gear. -> Proposed rework adresses this - giving each type of trooper a powerful but clearly defined kit along with a HUGE WEAKNESS in their armor. Once again: Engineering trooper gets melted by lasers, medical by bullets, security by non-lethals and leader's weakness is that his rig's stats are only that of a hazard rig so it's possible to overwhelm even without best kit possible. UNLIKE HOW THINGS ARE NOW WHERE THEY HAVE NO WEAKNESS FOR THE ANTAG TO LOOK FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.
 - 
If you don't like that ERT is a 'win button' you should SUPPORT this rework, not decry is because it actually gives antags a chance if they play correctly, unlike now. When I was making this I was worried I was making ERT -TOO WEAK- because I've been playing a copious amount of antags now and I've already had plans how to deal with re-worked ert.

 

 

On 10/07/2019 at 06:26, kyres1 said:

You get thumpers and plentiful blasters to hand to the crew, as well as several situational vehicles and two mechs capable of targeted teleportation (through walls, even)

Not to mention, you get a surplus of armor and the same non-combat supplies as ERT. You even get combat chemicals, if you've got a medic to distribute them. A naked bald on oxycodone and hyperzine is scary, now put them in a suit with a thumper and a net projector. They're not that underwhelming - the key here is to be creative, and powergaming with them is basically impossible as you need to seek out nonstandard means to getting what you want.

 

As I said here,

Blasters need extra visual indicators. You'd be surprised to hear their blasters across the board only do 5 less damage than laser rifles, including blasters and carbines, with the benefit of having burstfire, the bolt slinger having a scope, and holding onto the traits of shooting through windows/doors. These aren't really something to throw away nor treat like they're useless, but the lack of visual feedback when you hit someone makes it seem like they don't do much at all.

 

 

 


two mechs capable of targeted teleportation (through walls, even) - False, there is one teleporter. Furthermore, mechs are instantly deleted from the round by a single ion shot because emp enables maintenance protocols even when they are disabled in the menu.

A naked bald on oxycodone and hyperzine is scary - Reminds me when there was a bwoink that I should not hand out rigs to officers to deal with space bears, that an assistant with a crowbar and no armor can take one down. Maybe they can, but rp wise it make absolutely no sense. Why would, for god's sake, a military rescue force give guns to the people they are trying to keep out of harm's way? FURTHERMORE, how the fck are you proposing they get them to the station's crew, when TCFL  armor is NOT VOIDPROOF and the TCFL shuttle doesn't park next to an airlock. I genuinely want an explanation on how you imagine this should go.

They're not that underwhelming - Once again, the easiest way to delete TCFL from a round is to close them in command maintenance. Done, they're out of the round. Their access is beyond pitiful. It's outright laughable, a joke. Additionally, let's talk about their guns. Thumpers are good, which is why my rework proposes to build them upon thumpers, and not blasters, why? Blasters have horrible projectiles. The one time I saw them used I was the antag and I genuinely couldn't tell I was being shot at until my health dropped to red and I double-checked chat. They are tiny balls that move very fast and have no impact. Thumpers are loud and allow people to actually react to them proper. The numbers don't matter if the gun feels this bad. And there are only 2 thumpers to bring.

 

On 11/07/2019 at 01:06, KingOfThePing said:

I only want to comment on the access part for now - do not give them all access. Or any more access as it is right now. They are a third party and government ord not, NT would NEVER give a third party all access/any advanced access or access at all to their facilities. Civilian access is what they should have and live with.

Okay, please give me an ic reason that justifies this. Here's my arguments, IC, why they should.
   - They are the MILITARY FORCE OF THE COUNTRY YOU'RE IN. You do not say no when they come knocking, if you want to do business in that country.
   - They are only called when they should RESCUE the crew from hostiles. The crew that is being put in danger. If they want to get somewhere, it's probably where danger is. You don't want your crewmembers getting shot so the soldiers can get somewhere... AND THEN GET TRAPPED WHEN THE CIVVIE INEVITABLY GETS SHOT BY THE ANTAGS.
             - Not every round has an AI.
   - The most valuable and important things NT would want to protect are in high security areas - command, captain's office, armory, SAT, all that jazz. If NT wants to protect those things from hostiles, they will give access to TCFL so they can keep those things safe from hostiles.
   - NT would like to avoid damage to the station caused by soldiers trying to do their job. [As things are now, TCFL will just destroy the doors when they can't get somewhere, because OF COURSE THEY WILL. THEY'RE NOT ABOUT TO PUT CREWMEMBERS IN HARM'S WAY.]

 

On 11/07/2019 at 01:18, AmoryBlaine said:

There's a lot to read here, but I think I get the jist. Tbh, I think the Specialist TCFL should wear lighter RIGs, with low armor, but faster movement. The standard trooper and Prefect can share the current suit, but just change what the suits come with. Add in more blasters, add some sort of light ballistic rifle alongside the thumper, add in a voidsuit to be worn by crew militia or whatever. Can we please add some sort of TCFL clause where they can go "YOU HAVE BEEN RECRUITED" or something and it holds actual weight

If this was a mechanic it would change a lot. Alas, it is not. Furthermore, it makes very little sense to insert untrained civilians directly into a military operation. Even if the said military is volunteer based, they still have weekly trainings and have been preparing for these scenarios for years. 

 

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1 hour ago, Naelynn said:

If this was a mechanic it would change a lot. Alas, it is not. Furthermore, it makes very little sense to insert untrained civilians directly into a military operation. Even if the said military is volunteer based, they still have weekly trainings and have been preparing for these scenarios for years. 

Militias are hard to compare to professional armies due to the nature of their deployment and the same applies to the TCFL who are even described as a barely trained volunteer based army. They are also not closely tied with NT and rather respond to threats inside Republic space, in which we have our dear station, which would explain their overall lack of access. You are "Employed" by the Biesel Government and not NT and while some can OOCly argue that both are extremely tied together it still makes sense for them to lack any higher form of access.

Just sayin'

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16 hours ago, DaTimeSmog said:

Militias are hard to compare to professional armies due to the nature of their deployment and the same applies to the TCFL who are even described as a barely trained volunteer based army. They are also not closely tied with NT and rather respond to threats inside Republic space, in which we have our dear station, which would explain their overall lack of access. You are "Employed" by the Biesel Government and not NT and while some can OOCly argue that both are extremely tied together it still makes sense for them to lack any higher form of access.

Just sayin'


Okay, so I was basing that on my irl experience with volunteer based governmental organizations. More specifically, I live in a somewhat small city that doesn't have enough money to have a professional fire department - as such, they run a volunteer based organization where people have to have a job as their main income, and they get very little money from actually being firemen. My family happens to live right across the street from the fire dpt. so as you might expect we have a lot of them as friends and get to know stuff about how it works.

- They have regular training sessions, and while mostly anyone can join the volunteer force, there are still filters for incompetence.
               - This means that while they are not expected to be nearly as good as a professional fire department, they are still expected to be competent and carry all the same responsibilities as normal fire dpt. People's lives are at stake, and if they fuck up they are held just as liable as a pro firemen would be.

- Their main income is their job, while the volunteer work is secondary.
               - While the term 'weekend warrior' may come to mind here, the way it works irl is different. Instead of working for a day or two for TCFL, and rest of the week for NT, they have an alarm system and their employers are aware of it. If an emergency happens, they are expected to drop their job on the spot and come running to their post as fast as possible and get ready for deployment. This is co-ordinated based off how far from the fire station the volunteers work and what's the expected time to arrive at the fire station by central emergency system operators [basically 911 operators] who select the people who can at this moment respond the fastest. - When the volunteer is in a place where an accident happens they are expected to assist and organize the situation in an attempt to prevent further harm.- They are not expected to dive in headfirst undergeared, but they are expected to know what to do in emergencies and save lives where possible. In fact, if the dpt. knows that it's where their co-worker works, they would even bring an extra set of gear for said additional volunteer to assist on the spot. However, they wouldn't bring extra firemen suits and gear for random untrained people because if those people could handle it, they wouldn't be called. Furthermore, they would be held liable for throwing an untrained person into a harm's way - which opens an untold amount of lawsuits against the city and themselves.

- They have all access, as far as real life is concerned.
               - While obviously they cannot have keys to every single door on the planet, they are given governmental right to breach any door,wall or window required to extinguish the fire and/or save lifes of people trapped inside and/or handling any crysis which they are called to handle. NanoTrasen would probably want to avoid unnecessary destruction of their property from Lgn.'s trying to get to places without putting crew at risk, so the easiest way is to give access. Also, if a Lgn. steps out of line, there's so much money in it for NT from sueing the Republic of Biesel. - If a firemen force is given all access, please explain to me why a military force wouldn't.

Few additional notes.
               - TCFL is seemingly based on the French Foreign Legion, with it being a viable way for immigrants to gain citizenship with Republic of Biesel for serving in their military. The FFL is selective with it's process, but the requirements are basically: don't be an international criminal, and be physically healthy. TCFL seems to be working on a very, VERY similar basis. FFL is considered to be an ELITE ARMY FORMATION despite being made literally only of volunteers [no draft whatssoever]. This is because of the grueling training it puts it's soldiers through. TCFL seemingly operates similarly,

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It's problematic to cite RL experience as gospel because the function of organizations in our game on an ooc level are completely different from RL. RL does not need to worry about game balance, roleplay, player initiative, or plot cohesion.

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4 hours ago, Naelynn said:

TCFL is seemingly based on the French Foreign Legion, with it being a viable way for immigrants to gain citizenship with Republic of Biesel for serving in their military. The FFL is selective with it's process, but the requirements are basically: don't be an international criminal, and be physically healthy. TCFL seems to be working on a very, VERY similar basis. FFL is considered to be an ELITE ARMY FORMATION despite being made literally only of volunteers [no draft whatssoever]. This is because of the grueling training it puts it's soldiers through. TCFL seemingly operates similarly, 

I can so debate this.

The idea of a "People's militia" and weekend warriors is much more in line with organizations like the Estonian Defence League and perhaps the US National Guard. Legitimately, the only physical health check required for the EDL is a family phycisian's note and that's it. Regular trainings are held every quarter on the weekends, so that people with regular jobs can attend; exception being large field exercises with the Defence Forces proper, which can run for a few weeks. Even basic training is split up over weekends for about a month and then some. So by that criteria, the TCFL are much more akin to those two organizations, as opposed to the French Foreign Legion.

The only real criteria for you to be a foreign legion I suppose is that you are made up of foreigners. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're a professional regular military unit.

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1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

It's problematic to cite RL experience as gospel because the function of organizations in our game on an ooc level are completely different from RL. RL does not need to worry about game balance, roleplay, player initiative, or plot cohesion.

Fair point.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

I can so debate this.

The idea of a "People's militia" and weekend warriors is much more in line with organizations like the Estonian Defence League and perhaps the US National Guard. Legitimately, the only physical health check required for the EDL is a family phycisian's note and that's it. Regular trainings are held every quarter on the weekends, so that people with regular jobs can attend; exception being large field exercises with the Defence Forces proper, which can run for a few weeks. Even basic training is split up over weekends for about a month and then some. So by that criteria, the TCFL are much more akin to those two organizations, as opposed to the French Foreign Legion.

The only real criteria for you to be a foreign legion I suppose is that you are made up of foreigners. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're a professional regular military unit.

Fair point, I didn't know that. Thank you for teaching me! :)

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