Bicardine, Peridaxon, and Alkysine nerfs

[sonicgotnuked]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7165

 

From what I understand, the main issue people have is the nerf to Bicardine and removing its Internal Bleeding while painkillers might be able to counter Peridaxon pain.

 

Bicardine could still cure internal bleeding, but it will be set to your body temp being above 170 k to work. (Which is still quoted in the wiki, but not reflected in the code)

Peridaxon will send pain and give some weakness based on the dosage. (10 units = 10 percent chance to trigger. 9 units = 9 percent, etc)

Alkysine I may also make cause a chance for some brain effects like confusion or hallucinations based on the dosage.

Tramadol and Oxycodon addiction chances based on dosage. Tramadol would be a lower chance. Oxycodon would be a higher chance. 

 

While I heavily dislike IB counters and the lack of severity between food and bicaridine, it's understandable there may still need to be options. Peridaxon is a simple 2 click drug for organ failure. While I understand it causes issues when people pop lungs, you'll be on pain management as well.

[furrycactus]

While I can appreciate the intent of this, absolutely, I still feel that Bicaridine absolutely still needs to be able to repair IB in some form, and Peridaxon should 110% absolutely not be locked behind Phoron Salts. Internal Bleeding and organ damage would become absolutely crippling things if locked nearly purely behind surgery only, just as appendicitis currently is. Having somebody come into medical complaining of a stabbing pain in their abdomen and having no Surgeon on shift is the worst thing, because that player is being condemned to either cryoing or dying - there's no other choice. Adding IB and organ damage into this bracket, both things that happen FAR more often than appendicitis, will only worsen the issue of players having to cryo or just die if there's no medical staff that can perform the necessary surgery. While some might argue that this might be a good thing because it'll start making death a little more common, it's just going to absolutely ruin the enjoyment for players that are either forced to suffer a slow, agonizing death, or be consigned to spend the rest of the round on a roller bed in the ICU because of organ damage that's too crippling for them to be able to resume work as normal, but not bad enough to kill them.

By all means, make it a little bit harder to fix IB with bicaridine, make peridaxon cause a shitload of pain; but don't outright remove the ability to fix IB or organ damage without a surgeon, or lock peridaxon behind phoron salts or some other barely obtainable reagent.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

This will make medical a lot more complicated for little gain to anyone; antags or non-antags... -1

[VisVirific]

Considering that Medical only has Six (6) Blood Bags in total, thankfully O-, and the more-often-than-not lack of Surgeons, I cannot support the "Bicaridine no longer heals Internal Bleeding" because, as explained by one of the posters, it would become yet another Appendicitis case but incredibly more often. If you feel like Bicaridine shouldn't heal IBs, then I could only suggest creating an entirely new chem whose purposes is to cure it with some side-effects, like how Thetamycin has Vomitting and Deltamivir has Sores/Chills/Drowsiness.

And for the current idea for the Bicaridine and the Temperature, I would recommend being rather careful when balancing it since other races suffer more from the temperature mechanics and with how rounds go it could easily be forgotten in the middle of things, which might end up killing the patient and putting the player out of the round.

Other than that, I find the rest of the suggestions nice. They do remind me of Resilynn's suggestion threat ( As linked below ) and I do find more side-effects which makes people less likely to just "inject-hi-bye" incredibly good.

 

[HudsonC]

+1

I like all of the proposed additions; a lot of the medications seem too powerful and take surgery out of play for medical. 

If anything I believe your pain suggestion for Peridaxon is too moderate the fact that you are rapidly repairing your organs should take a great toll on the body (Potentially add fever as a side effect due to the rapid movement and formation of cellular structures). It should ideally be very painful, induce some kind of weakness, and should either: A.) take nutrition levels and/or B.) some Blood volume per unit metabolized to simulate tissue being formed out of actual nutrients. 

Surgery shouldn't be only for broken bones/appendicitis, and giving some of the most powerful medication in the server should be balance by having some great side effects; requiring Nurses and the ICU to actually be utilized and/or give chemists the potential to develop crafty new ways to mix medications to counter the adverse effects. (Preferably both) 

 

Side note, it would be really nice to add some anti-fever capabilities to Paracetamol since it does that in real life and there is no medication in game that actively combats just fever.

[Pratepresidenten]

1 hour ago, HudsonC said:

Side note, it would be really nice to add some anti-fever capabilities to Paracetamol since it does that in real life and there is no medication in game that actively combats just fever.

There is though, Leporazine. Psure Im one of very few, if not the only one that uses this. Super useful for saving taj from certain heat death

[Resilynn]

55 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

There is though, Leporazine. Psure Im one of very few, if not the only one that uses this. Super useful for saving taj from certain heat death

*cough* you can also use it for space walks....

[niennab]

I don't think nerfing medical further is a good idea. It's already (at least in my opinion) a fairly low RP space due to the current nerfs and a lot of just what medical is. This is partly why I don't play medical anymore.

Worse yet by nerfing medication, this damages low pop rounds when a full medical team cannot be assembled. Being without a surgeon or a pharmacist can already cause a headache, I don't think it should be made worse.

[Roostercat]

The only medicines right now I have a problem with is Bicaridine and Peridaxon. Bicaridine because it is the magic bullet for IB and Peridaxon being the magic bullet for organ damage. Some drug should NOT be able to fix a popped lung. The only reason surgery is ever used now is because of fractures, shrapnel, or IPC surgery for damages. legitimately everything else can be fixed by some medicine and a syringe, which I feel is stupid. Though completely taking out Bicaridine's IB fixing is the wrong way, I suggest making Bicaridine delay IB, not fully fix it. Make it stop for, say, 2 minutes or so depending on the dosage. And as for Peridaxon, make it repair some organ damage, but have surgery required to fix all of it.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Roostercat

[Forktress]

I agree with Roostercat in regards to Bicard, IB can get really nasty really quick for understaffed medbay, as for Peri could look into testing it so it works on all organs in a similar way it interacts with the liver? Could be an interesting workaround to outright gutting the drugs.

[sonicgotnuked]

I may just readd what the wiki says ODing bicard does when the temp is above 170k. If it takes around 20 minutes in an OD state, I may forget about touching it.

 

I still stand by my proposal to Peridaxon and Alkysine. Locking a recipe behind phoron salts was just a discussion point.

[VVipEdout]

Phoron salts can be made in five minutes flat given the chemist has already figured out a working method, and less if said method is not heater-dependent. Locking a recipe behind it would only net you phoron fires from inexperienced chemists about three minutes after someone asks why there isn't peridaxon in the fridge, which takes 10 minutes to solve and possibly more if considering engineering work and suspensions, et cetera.

One has to understand that said changes would not make medical's work more entertaining or challenging by any margin; at most the person suffering from the changes is the patient, as being on a ticking clock to death by having no surgeon and no way to handle punctured lungs/IB, one might as well cryo. It's not like surgery is this fun, indepth system that one is taken away from by chemistry; my experience as surgeon boils down to rote steps while the person is asleep from start to end, and the only feasible way to give surgery a bit more fun in its current state is extremely rare and requires chemistry anyway, being awake surgeries with oxycodone. I can't see the changes improving anyone's experience.

[Nantei]

A couple weeks ago I had to have Faith cryo me because a bicaridine OD was not fixing my IB and I was rapidly draining medical of their resources. In old medbay where we had a million blood bags this wouldn't be that big a deal. In current medbay, blood runs out fast, and it's frankly not any fun to sit around waiting to die, or scarf down food to unrealistically replenish your blood faster than you lose it. Bicaridine OD already heals IB pretty slowly. Surgery is generally better than chemistry when it comes to efficiently fixing most things. Chemistry can do it faster in some cases, but these are usually for minor damage where surgery wouldn't really be necessary anyways.

A chest or head break can already leave you hospitalized. I see absolutely zero reason to further gate things behind surgery or die.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

A couple weeks ago I had to have Faith cryo me because a bicaridine OD was not fixing my IB and I was rapidly draining medical of their resources. In old medbay where we had a million blood bags this wouldn't be that big a deal. In current medbay, blood runs out fast, and it's frankly not any fun to sit around waiting to die, or scarf down food to unrealistically replenish your blood faster than you lose it. Bicaridine OD already heals IB pretty slowly. Surgery is generally better than chemistry when it comes to efficiently fixing most things. Chemistry can do it faster in some cases, but these are usually for minor damage where surgery wouldn't really be necessary anyways.

A chest or head break can already leave you hospitalized. I see absolutely zero reason to further gate things behind surgery or die.

I agree.

[Natiform]

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

A couple weeks ago I had to have Faith cryo me because a bicaridine OD was not fixing my IB and I was rapidly draining medical of their resources. In old medbay where we had a million blood bags this wouldn't be that big a deal. In current medbay, blood runs out fast, and it's frankly not any fun to sit around waiting to die, or scarf down food to unrealistically replenish your blood faster than you lose it. Bicaridine OD already heals IB pretty slowly. Surgery is generally better than chemistry when it comes to efficiently fixing most things. Chemistry can do it faster in some cases, but these are usually for minor damage where surgery wouldn't really be necessary anyways.

A chest or head break can already leave you hospitalized. I see absolutely zero reason to further gate things behind surgery or die.

i gotta agree with nantei here. making these medicines less potent is sort of a death sentence for any dead-hour DNC players if there's an accident, since i've almost never seen a surgeon on during dead hour. and as stated, they're not exactly a catch-all anyway, so i think they're fine as-is.

sorry, but -1 from me.

[Scheveningen]

I loathe surgery, whether I'm the person on the OR table, the one holding the scalpel or the general treatment person that hands the patient off to the surgeon.

Even if I'm the only surgeon, I'd rather have very mild and non-threatening cases of having to do surgery on someone else instead of being swarmed by triage-level critical patients that could die any second.

Chemicals by design are intended to prevent people from dying so easily, despite it being incredibly easy to die no matter what the previous thread and some anecdotal examples said. For every one occasion where you survive 10 bullets to the chest without being in hardcrit, the other 9 cases are situations where you forgot to tune your sensors to full shortly before your lung critically popping due to a pressure change, someone decapitates you, or you get shoved into a locker in maint, etc. This game is bullshit sometimes. Thankfully there are aspects to this game that make the process of dying counterable or feel a lot less bullshit, and while they can be 'too easy' in saving someone's round sometimes, that's kind of the point, because they're a counterbalance against how easy it is to die in the game.

A point I want to bring up to anyone who thinks otherwise, do you really think you have a leg to stand on when trying to determine how other people should be experiencing the game? If applied inversely to you with a different case but the same logic, is the reasoning any more or less fair?

[Resilynn]

“Do you really think you have a leg to stand on when trying to determine how other people should be experiencing the game?”

This seems a little unnecessarily hostile. I might be misreading it, but a pretty decent number of people expressed wanting dying to be easier, and a good number of people have expressed in the past that medicine works too easily. And people have expressed the opposite to each, of course. 

But sonic put up a feedback thread. And has been probably the most communicative and open to feedback I’ve ever seen a dev be on a project like this. 

I don’t think anyone is determining how other people should experience the game. I think the very existence of this feedback thread is evidence sonic is trying to determine how people WANT to experience the game. No one is imposing their view on anyone else, we’re just. Saying what we would personally like.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Resilynn

[Scheveningen]

44 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

This seems a little unnecessarily hostile. I might be misreading it, but a pretty decent number of people expressed wanting dying to be easier, and a good number of people have expressed in the past that medicine works too easily. And people have expressed the opposite to each, of course. 

It wasn't intended to be hostile but more of a question pointing out what seems to be a cognitive dissonance with wanting to enjoy the game yet wanting others to be put out of the round faster/more efficiently. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that people want mediums through which you roleplay to die faster (and thus not be able to roleplay) on a roleplaying server.

This also is a project thread for proposed, intentional changes. The intent of the PR is to impose aspects of the belief that people should not be able to use chemicals as effectively as right now (in the case of peridaxon, erasing them from viability, since phoron salts is very volatile and difficult to synthesize for an inexperienced chemist, and for an experienced chemist may not even be worth the time and effort invested into it), which will cause the effect of people not having access to crucial medicine that may save them from a really shitty death. The PR and the logic behind the PR is the problem. It's fine to have an opinion about gameplay, but it doesn't necessarily mean it should be used as a reason to change everyone's gameplay.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Pratepresidenten]

I have no strong opinions on anything other than the idea of a new reagent for lung damage. We dont need more chems, honestly.

[Itanimulli]

Isn't surgery supposed to be a last resort anyways? 

[Peppermint]

I definitely feel like medical is too easy in some ways, but I also think a lot of the discussion surrounding nerfs towards it is going the wrong way in certain cases. I play a lot of medical and can def get frustrated over how simple certain fixes are, especially in relation to peridoxan and bicardine. That said, I've also had other rounds where I've played another role and just had to wait for death because there was no surgeon or chemist around to fix it. I'm personally not against that as the whole palliative care stuff can be somewhat fun, but I do get why people are frustrated at it. 
 

I believe than peridoxan absolutely needs to be changed, especially in relation to how quickly it heals damage with no real side-effects. Giving it the theta/delta treatment would be ideal imo, but then again, I'd ideally like all of the major chems to come with heavy drawbacks. Right now it's basically impossible to overdose someone if you're not a total idiot, made worse by the fact that there's no real drawback to just plugging someone full of meds. But there are so many issues surrounding medical that just nerfing drugs isn't going to help that much. Organ damage should be more severe. Someone with a messed up heart/liver should take heavy toxins/o2 damage until it's fixed. Viral outbreaks should be more common. Infection should be a bigger deal. Imo, the medical department as a whole is pretty darn complicated, but large sections of it go totally unused due to how a handful of solutions can fix pretty much every problem with minimal effort. 

[Gem]

old/stale thread.

locking and archiving.