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Staff Complaint - Resilynn, Kyres

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BYOND Key: abigbear
Staff BYOND Key: Kyres1, Resilynn
Game ID: Warbling event, sorry I don't know
Reason for complaint:

A few weeks ago on a canon round during the warbling event. Yahir murdered Wxkri, alone, in a maintenance tunnel and dumped the body on a one way trip into space with no witnesses. Apparently I was informed that he is to be arrested and trialed for the murder.

Apparently there was a possible PDA message that could have linked Yahir to Wxkri's death.

Let's talk about how Wxkri was last seen JUMPING INTO SPACE WITH SUICIDAL INTENT AFTER BEING CAUGHT by Yahir, Cheshire, and I think someone else mutilating a corpse. This was the Last time he was seen by anyone but Yahir. What happens one someone falls into space? They die. How often are bodies recovered when lost in space? They're not.

Yahir had a sinking suspicion they were going to go for the engine vents. He saw a security belt laying on the ground that he thought was Easter's (which apparently was just a random spawn) so he went into the tunnels, found the doors hacked, and caught up to Wxkri, and murdered him there, in the tunnels with no witnesses.

I believe the PDA message in question was something about squashing a bug. Yahir never once fully admitted to murdering Wxkri in any way shape or form until he was in person with Ana face to face in an area that was completely unmonitored. As he told everyone else Wxkri fell.

Let's talk about prosecution for murder. You are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. One PDA message that is skeptical, at best, is not enough to see someone prosecuted by jury of their peers without any physical evidence, a body, or anyone being suspicious about it in the first place. As far as the COMMAND member was concerned, they fell into space and did not return. A suicide. Carp, Sharks, Spaceworms, and other fauna would have long consumed Wxkri's corpse before it was found. Wxkri's murder, or even death WAS NOT common knowledge.

This, quite frankly, does not even begin to hold up for a prosecution to go forward. Yahir would have said upon interview, he fell and by squashing a bug he was handling a personal problem to any investigator. If there is another PDA message in all this I'd need to see it to add clarification, but again, with no body, evidence, and last time seen being a fatal jump into space. Well. This seems silly. A non-biased command member would state the last time they were seen was falling into space. And it's a vaurca.(no offense to the character, OOCly it hurt me to kill them off bc I enjoyed them)

Evidence/logs/etc:
Additional remarks:
There's 3 other reasonable cause of death's I can think of alone off the top of my head, blood loss from fall, literally just falling into space and suffocating, being eaten by carp, and we can keep going. An entire murder case hinging off of a string of text messages is absurd.


@Resilynn @kyres1

Edited by Bear
forgot formatting

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I would also like to add I was contacted after this decision was made, how many weeks later. No input was sought from me or clarification on the events that occurred or I think this probably could have been easily avoided. I'm all for having FIB sit Yahir down to investigate the events that occurred and how Wxkri hasn't been seen prior. But I want to emphasize how there was literally no physical evidence linking him between it all. No one was alerted to the murder, no evidence collected, no body to be autopsied, and no witnesses to the murder but witnesses to Wxkri jumping into open space are available.


Also I have to add. Is this not a CCIA/FIB case vs a Loremaster/Admin review route?

Edited by Bear

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Not sure why I am being included here, but you kinda said that the bug was smashed or something over pda, which is recorded on the messaging black box. Also, if it was not known at all, why this is included in your character exploitable info?

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4 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

Not sure why I am being included here, but you kinda said that the bug was smashed or something over pda, which is recorded on the messaging black box. Also, if it was not known at all, why this is included in your character exploitable info?

For antag's to play into something and drive story into the server, for whatever magic flare for them to learn the impossible about a character's darkest secret. If that's too much to be included in exploitable I can easily remove it.. Also I'm sorry Alb I misread one of Resi's comments in DM's and just auto assumed you were involved in the decision making. I don't know who the admins in this decision were then! Apologies  I will edit you out @Alberyk

As for the bug was squashed: Yes this comment is subjective. Definitely enough to draw attention to the character. But is it really enough to prosecute an official case over? Who's to say it wasn't a spider or a personal agenda he was handling. It's subjective and not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Edited by Bear

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I'll provide a bit of clarification.

 

It took a couple of weeks because Alb had intended to handle it from the Taj lore end of things, but learned your character does not have a citizenship.

These are canon events.  You are warned ahead of them that everything in them is canon- and of course, you're not disputing that it was canon here.  But consider, you canonically murdered, with what, a pickaxe, as a miner, a vaurca.  You canonically PDA'd something about squashing a bug.  You canonically walked around covered in vaurca blood.  These were decisions you made in a canon event round.

My justification for the evidence leading back to you involves a few things- First, you didn't clean the blood in maint where the murder took place.  You didn't clean it off of yourself, either.  The PDA messages, obviously.  Then there's the matter of the vaurca's disappearance.  Space doesn't kill vaurca, firstly, and second, if I recall correctly, the vaurca was speaking over their hivemind channel between walking into space and the murder.  I understand you assumed tossing it on the asteroid meant the body was gone forever, but there are more permanent ways of retrieval and that seems more like a safe bet placed on knowing there isn't permanence on the server rather than 'oh all bodies get eaten by carp.'  Keep in mind, this is a situation being monitored very closely by a number of intelligence organizations between NT, Tau Ceti, and Jargon.

I absolutely welcome the chance for Kyres and Mofo to review logs and see if this was the correct decision, but after careful consideration, I believe that it was. 

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I was part of the Jargon Security Forces that round.
Look at this from the Federation's standpoint.

1. Wxkri gave us a shit-ton of information the round of his death pertaining to a ton of leads and potential guilty parties. Wxkri was not only a Federation sympathizer but essentially a valuable informer, willing to defy doc-patient confidentiality to assist the Federation. The death of an informer is not something that goes unnoticed, especially that of a C'thur who is essentially a Jargon Federation citizen as far as that consideration goes.
2. Yahir later PDAs someone about a bug being squashed. There's a very limited amount of things this could mean when a valuable Federation informer that is a Vaurca, suddenly disappears or turns up dead.
3. The Federation is not stupid. They and the FIB will pursue anything that even looks like a lead, and so would the FIB when motivated to do so, considering the disappearance of a Federation citizen happened within the territory of Tau Ceti, and it looks really bad on TC and NT for not trying to investigate or cooperate to assist in the investigation of the mysterious disappearance/death of Wxkri.

The Feds/FIB would certainly detain anyone who looks like they'd know about a disappearance/murder. Considering the corporate influence that NT has over the TC courts as well, it rounds out to assume that the courts are not as impartial as you might think they are.

If you took careful consideration to clean up the trail and not say a word to anyone, as well as not allowing Wxkri to be able to speak over Hivenet to call for help, then I'd see reasonable cause to overturn whatever decision was made. Actions have consequences. 

Edited by Scheveningen

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I just want to also add that the mining equipment used for the deed were left in the miners locker covered in Vaurca blood. 

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5 hours ago, Bear said:

What happens one someone falls into space? They die. How often are bodies recovered when lost in space? They're not.

I do have to clarify something. 

Most of the stuff thrown from the asteroid ends up somewhere back on the asteroid due to the gravity field. (Which is consistently represented in the game via a number of mechanics)

So just because you threw a body into space from the asteroid, does not mean that it's unrecoverable. 

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The asteroid is covered in bones. This is what's represented by game mechanics, Carp actively feast on the dead. Assuming one body in a sea would be found that quickly (which it was not) is ridiculous.

The weapon used in the murder was on  Yahir's person, and cleaned in the shower and left the station on Yahir's person which was later discarded

The voidsuit is a good point. However. Mind you. Yahir shot wxkri when he moved to throw the body. Who's to say he wasn't covered in it from that? When he came inside the voidsuit was already off. For some reason. The blood soaks through an eva proof voidsuit. I cant control that lrp mechanic and maybe one person saw Yahir other than Ana and didnt stop to question that. Who is your witness here? Secondly the voidsuits are recycled and sanitized evert shift by cleanup crew. They are covered in blood all the time from shit that happens on the asteroid.

Did wxkri speak about being murdered by Yahir over hivenet? Who heard it? Does Tau Ceti allow a hivenet communication in court of law? Otherwise. Who is to say his falling into space and subsequently smearing against the asteroid is why he did not go silent?

As for being EVA proof. Yes. Being fall, shark, and smashing against the ground proof? No.

Blood in the maints. This is... silly. Does NT investigate every pile of blood in the maintenance? Is the cleanup crew not mindless robots who "clean" station after shift?

My point here is you are moving off very circumstantial evidence when Wxkri was presumed dead for falling into space. How long does it take for a missing person's investigation to truly begin time of retrieval, and feasibility of them finding a single body in a VERY large area riddled with fauna that actively consume them? Replace wxkri with a miner that had fallen. Again. Loss of life from falling on the Asteroid is a common occurence and wxkri literally jumped into space and fell.

-------

In short. Unless there was a clear signal here that Wxkri got off saying "Yahir" or "Someone is murdering me in maint". This is what we call: Meta. A faux investigation that never happened is being allowed here on evidence that would not have been realistically found. Wxkri, by all accounts was last seen jumping into space his sensors were off. He was not seen again by anyone *but* Yahir. No one was alerted to a murder so no one would be looking for a murder when you have a plausible cause of death, already. This is meta.

If you are confident in this investigation that would have found Yahir guilty enough to be trialed, allow an actual IC one based on the evidence you have go through. We have an actual staff team for that. Who do FIB investigations instead of railroading an ooc punishment based off of ooc information.

Edited by Bear

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Just going to throw my two cents here as Cheshire, last I saw Wxkri from an IC standpoint was when he fell down the hole and drifted away. I don't remember if anyone else in medical got them but I found maint blood towards the end of a round where I moved Easter around as well. Either way, I don't think we got a body or any explanation on the blood IC. There was also the freelancer bit that tossed science around that area, but I'm not sure if that's canon.

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Cheshire and AIMMO where the last that saw Wrixi in space (officialy that is , clearly yahir saw them later)  and talked about how he jumped into space over radios, though we appearently were not interviewed on the occurances. Sec atleast that shift didnt seem eager to investigate in Wrixi leaving. 

I agree that most evidence would take alot of time to be found and if found probably is inconclusive, even if the maint blood wouldn't be cleaned, before attention of it is caught it probably dried too much to be of good use for Forensics. 
The only evidence with a reliable chance to be noted and used is whatever Wrixi said before dying in hivenet and the "Bug squashed" message if the investigators are very thorough, but that is in no way enough to arrest them, house search ? Sure ? 

Given how little evidence this case has that actually make sense, and the fact that no one involved in the events before Wrixi vanishing was interrogated makes me agree with Bears stand on the legitimacy of this

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For the record. I'll be handling this one unless Mofo shows an interest. Will review it Thursday or Friday, as I have time. Until then, discuss if there's anything left to discuss.

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I think my points have been made so unless there was a log from hivenet i was unaware of ill stick to my 2 original guns:

Reasonable doubt. There is just too many holes. No body. No concrete evidence besides blood in a tunnel and on a voidsuit after Yahir already shooting Wxkri once point blank,) and a vague text message about squashing a bug. Is this really enough to convince a jury of 12 peers? (Assuming TC judicial is like modern day judicial systems)

No reported murder: So Wxkri was seen jumping into space. No body recovered. There would be at least a day before people realized he was missing. Longer for his last location to be determined. And longer yet for a manhunt after a fall into space (assuming now that a manhunt for a vaurca would be done when they do not even do this for humans) to be organized to find a body in a mine cave that somehow survived the herd of carp clinging to the station. So the odds of determining Wxkri's cause of death is slim to none at best.

 

I'd fully support an actual IC investigation and accept a temporary arrest here. But just flat predetermined guilt with 0 interviews on very circumstantial evidence when no murder was ever even reported? That seems entirely unfair to fuck someone's character over.

Edited by Bear

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1 hour ago, Bear said:

 

Blood in the maints. This is... silly. Does NT investigate every pile of blood in the maintenance? Is the cleanup crew not mindless robots who "clean" station after shift?

I was observing when you murdered Wxkri in maintenance. There was a lot of blood. If security walked through that section of maintenance during a standard round, it stands to reason they would've gotten forensics immediately to the site. Clean-up crew would likely have someone to call as well.

 

Quote

Carp actively feast on the dead.

Citation needed. There isn't actual written-down lore on this, and I don't think de facto lore would help the case here.

There is also no IC explanation for why the bones are there. To some it's probably more likely that the bones are there for mystery and intrigue reasons as well as to establish that the asteroid is a very dangerous place to wander. Corpse decay does not happen in a vacuum, and there's not even a little bit of oxygen within the asteroid's atmosphere (apart from an unintentional issue that happens when the miners force their airlocks like the minimum wage dummies they are).

Should also state that murder convictions without a body have happened, and that circumstantial/forensic evidence are enough to book someone for an indefinite period of time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murder_convictions_without_a_body

Edited by Scheveningen

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Just now, Scheveningen said:

I was observing when you murdered Wxkri in maintenance. There was a lot of blood. If security walked through that section of maintenance during a standard round, it stands to reason they would've gotten forensics immediately to the site. Clean-up crew would likely have someone to call as well.

But security, did not. And the one person who discovered it did not act on it. How often are there blood and oil trails? Now try and link this to the other cleanup crew guy who uses the recycle function on just another void suit with blood on it like everyshift. (Which btw the voidsuit was not covered in vaurca blood mechanically because it was already covered in Yahir's blood from out on the rock earlier that shift. I didnt include that bc its again a mechanical thing not an rp thing, which is the same reason saying yahir was covered in vaurca blood somehow through an eva suit is silly. So we either say Yahir was covered in bug blood which no named witness saw but none was on his voidsuit or there was blood on the suit which would be recycled as it always is) During this time. No one was reported murdered. Cleanup crew is not a super sterile forensics super team. They just clean. How much thought would they really put into this? But okay, let's they had their wheaties and know this blood surely must be different than all the other bleed outs in maint and report it? Yahir was in EVA gear so he would have left no identifiable forensic trails besides a mining suit fiber in an area miners can already traverse. Do they really conduct in depth investigations of the maintenance tunnels before recycling and replacing standard shift gear and have time to document, analyze, and run fibers before sanitizing standard voidsuits?

This is implausible. This is relying on meta knowledge that there was a murder. And even if they have this meta, it is still circumstantial. Yahir shot wxkri point blank in front of two people? Who is to say he was not still bleeding from that? Who is to say the blood on the suit wasnt from the shot?

Reasonable. Doubt.

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23 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Citation needed. There isn't actual written-down lore on this, and I don't think de facto lore would help the case here.

There is also no IC explanation for why the bones are there. To some it's probably more likely that the bones are there for mystery and intrigue reasons as well as to establish that the asteroid is a very dangerous place to wander. Corpse decay does not happen in a vacuum, and there's not even a little bit of oxygen within the asteroid's atmosphere (apart from an unintentional issue that happens when the miners force their airlocks like the minimum wage dummies they are).

Should also state that murder convictions without a body have happened, and that circumstantial/forensic evidence are enough to book someone for an indefinite period of time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murder_convictions_without_a_body

Second post to follow up with the edit of added info.

Sure if carp and bones are defacto lore, then why is the gravity well that somehow spits someone out on random zlevels instead of them falling into space forever bc mechanics also not defacto lore? I still point out the plausibility of a body being manhunted for and found when a plausible cause of death via witnessed suicide jump was already accepted.

And okay fair point on no evidence/body not preventing them from holding Yahir for a while. I still say its bullshit he's automatically convicted. Which is what i was told in DM's. 

Edited by Bear

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Pda logs taken in game

fDe9rXv_d.jpg.b3afe72a409cb01cbfe20c494eb433c7.jpg

MKInGqu_d.jpg.f13b1a60f546d0805b79196abc05a46d.jpg

It is kinda obvious. Also, it was a vaurca from a hive species that is controlled by an authoritarian regime that enters people's dreams, it would be reported missing. And as people pointed out: a body is not really needed.

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From the top.

1. Wxkri, by all accounts has gone missing. An investigation is likely launched, considering the importance of the individual to the Federation's interests and the fact that his disappearance lines up shortly after he gave a lot of useful information to the Federation, which is very suspicious and suggests foul play. At least to the Federation, it certainly would.
2. Some basic components of evidence/pre-existing conditions are found. I'll split them into lettered categories.
2a. The blood in maintenance.
2b. The same blood on the refitted Tajara mining voidsuit. (Good question, what colored blood was it last?)
2c. Some indication that there was a prior assault early in the shift where Wxkri was shot (but not killed) by a KA in front of a few individuals.
3. Depending on how seriously we take this, since CCIA has booked people before on this basis to bust liars; security camera footage. Since I witnessed the murder as an observer, I certainly know no footage could've possibly captured the event as it was undertaken in maintenance. The prior assault with the KA as mentioned in 2c... well, don't really know. That's probably concerning to someone.

I personally view the entire situation as on the borderline and not precisely within reasonable doubt. The evidence is not damning, but I'd view it sufficient for an investigation -

Welp, Alb swooped in quick, just saw the PDA logs. RIP.

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The blood was red. Bc yahir bled on it first i remember thinking this was rediculous mid round @Scheveningan

Edited by Bear

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But okay. I do not remember being that brash in text tho it makes sense for the character. 

In sight of that it definitely makes sense they'd arrest Yahir to at least interrogate him and investigate it.

I still would like to contest this is enough to see him proven guilty for murder beyond reasonable doubt? it's not a physical admission of guilt. Very suspicious yes. Enough to say he did it beyond a reasonable doubt when no effort to collect evidence was underway meaning it would have been lost. I still dont think so. I still say the rest is a screenshot from observing for the blood and still meta to be used in determining this when it was ignored/undiscovered icly in round. It was an ic issue that was not handled ICly. Those texts were around the same time he jumped and Yahir shot him point blank. Who is to say that is what he was not referencing? This is a stretch. Yes. But its the point that it can still be doubted here for conviction.

Edited by Bear
Mobile hates me

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Another thing from memory is that I’m fairly sure the body returned back to where you threw it from.

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It did lol. I threw it again  bc i caught it on my material scanners when leaving to scale back up the rock and go back to the mining eva airlock so as few chances to be seen as possible when going back inside.

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So as this has been a long post and this has been a drawn out discussion I'd went as far as to add a graphic as I am a visual person to help keep this organized. I've put the known issues into three categories. Things everyone agrees that we know, things that might be known, and then unrealistic information from either improbability of it being gathered or knowledge taken from observation and players not in round. Please let me think if there was any other pertinent information on this "case" that has been built.

Yahir-Murder.png

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“Yahir shot wxkri point blank in front of two people”

 

This alone should be enough to lose your job in a canon event without a damn good reason, even if it didn’t end in a murder 10 minutes later. But then we have the PDA logs, the blood, the body, fibers, etc. There are ways to permanently get rid of a body on the server, there were ways to clean up your tracks. If the blood was cleaned, if there weren’t PDA messages saying “a vaurca did something that made me mad so I squashed a bug”, if 3 different intelligence agencies weren’t paying attention to what goes on on this station, sure.  
 

Lastly, I want to say that there is precedence for this. In the second antag contest, characters were not permitted to come back to the station by the lore team because they became big deal heroes.  In the Odin murders, I personally had my PDA logs combed through despite there being no IR by the lead of CCIA and got reprimanded without interview because the evidence that I trespassed and withheld evidence in an investigation was strong enough from a few vague PDA messages. Also in the Odin murders, Halstere and LeCheffe(?) were both characters lost because of the event arc.

Death has never been the only way to lose a character in a canon event, and CCIA has never been in charge of who is lost in events. All the same, as a courtesy, I did brief lancer before moving forward with this decision. 

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20 hours ago, Resilynn said:

This alone should be enough to lose your job in a canon event without a damn good reason, even if it didn’t end in a murder 10 minutes later. But then we have the PDA logs, the blood, the body, fibers, etc. There are ways to permanently get rid of a body on the server, there were ways to clean up your tracks. If the blood was cleaned, if there weren’t PDA messages saying “a vaurca did something that made me mad so I squashed a bug”, if 3 different intelligence agencies weren’t paying attention to what goes on on this station, sure.  

This is what I am contesting. You are saying, without a doubt. Foul play was suspected and Yahir is convicted. You are saying a body was found intact, fibers from a space-proof suit were found by a team that did not investigate it in round and a command team that dismissed it. A command member saw the blood. It was ignored. Why would a *clean up team* decide to make more of it *before* someone is confirmed missing. You are saying the *body was without a doubt found* when it was not found in round and I say the odds of it being discovered in a hole on the asteroid by someone before something prowling out there like carp (which are found around bodies always) did. This is not feasible. You have to think of the timeframe here.

Quote


Day 1 0000 - Yahir leaves station, body/wxkri is still missing, blood in maints is there, voidsuit is still there.
Day 1 0030 to 0200 - Shortly after shift cleanup crew arrives to prepare for the next shift that is coming shortly. This is not one individual, someone will be doing maints, someone will be handling mining. The bloody voidsuit is nowhere out of the normal, this happens on so many shifts, why would they pause and not just recycle/sanitize it back to a human default and put it where it goes on the racks. How would an obscure corner of maintenance which be found before this is done? This is a very big ooc assumption that this would even be linked.
Day 1 0030 to 0200 - At this point maybe the cleanup crew isn't just an autonomous group of robots who sanitize the station. Maybe it's janitor bob who finds the blood and thinks.. well this is more than just the random blood that hangs out all over maints anyways? Anyone want to look at this. Oh and lets not forget apparently someone else has trampled through this scene already so it is no longer preserved, it was just not reported. My issue is this was not reported in round, this is being ooc pushed from a faceless, loreless cleanup crew. It was just blood. No personal belongings. Just blood in a station that has rooms covered in blood from scrubbers, and tunnels filled with dried blood all the time.
Late Day 1 or Day 2 - Wxkri is confirmed missing later this day or the next day. FIB begins their missing person case.
Day 2 to Day 3 - FIB starts with last known location. FIB knows Wxkri was last seen jumping into space after mutiliating a corpse by Yahir, Cheshire, Aimmo, where he had been shot by Yahir for trying to dump the body. Assuming they interview them (which never happened icly in follow up) they know this is the last he was seen.
Day 4 to Day 5 - FIB court orders NT to turn over PDA logs, this doesn't happen immediately, this will take time. FIB sees a very suspicious message from Yahir. (As someone who has things court ordered irl all the time this takes time, trust me)
Day ??? - You are saying Yahir was seen covered in blood walking around? This is an OOC decision made from ghosts watching the round on a mechanic based function that doesn't make sense. Regardless, no one reported this IC'ly, this is being pushed OOC'ly. 
Day ??? - At this point here you are saying the body is searched for and discovered how many days/weeks later preserved? I stand by how unlikely this is when it has fallen into a mining chasm in carp infested areas.



Yahir shot Wxkri point blank trying to stop him from dumping the body of a friend into space. Yahir facing punishment for this? I'm not against. He still shot someone. The question was is this justified? That is not my place to say.

I am debating the *unfeasible* evidence that you are accepting as collected and canon besides the very suspicious text message is enough to convict Yahir of murder. The message gives you plenty of reason to arrest him, if you would like him arrested for the duration of the warbling event as an "investigation" is conducted I am 100% accepting of that. I will contest him being proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt very strongly, here, however. 

---
With the timeframe added above I hope you begin to see where I think this is not a feasible order of events that is being used in this judgement, Resi. Even if the FIB and Jargon are watching the events, the only ones present there were the Jargon Federation who, unless they remained behind cloaked and tapped into the PDA network would have had any indication that "something" might have happened in an un-witnessed area. The PDA messages are not broadcasted off station, the FIB may have been watching but they weren't sitting the PDA message uplink, and if the Jargon Federation were to slip them that tip *instantaneously*, considering the recent kidnappings, disappearances, and diplomatic incidents that had occurred by that point are they truly going to be that trusting? The skrell kidnapping Yahir would have made more sense here by that logic. Sorry for the long edit, I just hope that my point is being conveyed as if this is gaslighted through, it will be the end of the character. It's a murder charge after all. There was a risk of death in the event, we all knew that. I'm accepting of that. But the death/permanent removal of the character did not happen in the event and it's being railroaded by very unlikey circumstances, I'm sticking to that gun.

I'm not against Yahir being punished for his actions. I'm against him being punished in this manner with no say from the player, just a DM that hey you're char is being arrested and proven guilty.

Edited by Bear

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