[1 Dismissal] Remove Healing Effects from Tea

[Ornias]

Remove the toxins healing effect from tea.

It's currently being used as legitimate medication to toxins cases such as irradiation and scrubbers poisoning, rather than the individuals in question actually being treated for the severe poisoning they've received. It's reached a point where certain medical staff are using it as their first response to someone being poisoned, rather than treating them with actual medication.

And before anyone says "but tea heals you IRL"; yes. It does. Over the course of several months it can remove long-lasting toxins from your body, and can over the course of a few hours provide certain health benefits. It does not immediately cure serious and painful toxins from venomous spiders, radiation storms, and poison. It doesn't provide RP value to anyone, and only detracts from our atmosphere.

[LanceLynxx]

Remove the toxins healing effect from tea.

It's currently being used as legitimate medication to toxins cases such as irradiation and scrubbers poisoning, rather than the individuals in question actually being treated for the severe poisoning they've received. It's reached a point where certain medical staff are using it as their first response to someone being poisoned, rather than treating them with actual medication.

And before anyone says "but tea heals you IRL"; yes. It does. Over the course of several months it can remove long-lasting toxins from your body, and can over the course of a few hours provide certain health benefits. It does not immediately cure serious and painful toxins from venomous spiders, radiation storms, and poison. It doesn't provide RP value to anyone, and only detracts from our atmosphere.

 

-1

Tea is beneficial. If medical is using it for minor intoxication, it's fine. I doubt they use it for heavy toxin damage since tea is so weak and you would need to drink a LOT to fix severe cases. Which would be impractical. I also have never been treated for toxins using tea.

It's up to medical to decide the treatment. If soemone thinks tea is the best way, it's their choice. Take it to CMO if you think treatment is unsuitable.

I have never seen anyone complain about tea or how it "detracts from atmosphere". This has never been an issue.

[Azande]

0.5 to 5 toxins from shit is not 'serious poisoning' so please don't over exaggerate. The tea works for minor toxins very well.

It doesn't work for spider toxins because spider toxins need to be removed via dialysis before the toxins themselves should be treated (unless they're already serious levels), nobody would ever use tea for a spider bite and unless you provide evidence of it, I don't really believe someone did.

Radiation medication is hard to come by, but usually toxins caused by radiation are slim to none unless the person was exposed for a long time. In this case, tea is FINE.

1 unit of dylovene is either worth 5 or 10 units of toxins gone, that's a lot of waste in chemical in the end as syringes only work in fives. Tea is the intermediary and is a fun part of our universe, and indeed - an IC organization did research into the healing effects of tea and produced a formal opinion on the matter so it is a part of IC culture as well.

[Zundy]

We've had cases of people using tea for spider bites. I don't think we should remove the healing tea aspect though, how else are my characters gonna smoke dank fly amanita kush and get away with it by avoiding medical?

[MO_oNyMan]

I have no idea how powerful the tea healing effects are right now but if it feels too powerful and severe radiation isbeing treated with it i could get behind nerfing its healing potency. Completely removing the healing effect doesn't seem like a good idea to me because it's a viable option of medical treatment that can be prescribed by a medic, it preserves medbays resources and it involves other personnel (as a guy prescribed to drink a lot of tea would most likely go down to the bar and interact with the bartender). While medics could be slightly more creative with their medication (dilluting chemicals with other drinks via a dropper), i don't see the benefit of completely removing the healing effects of tea.

[LordBalkara]

I don't think tea should be nerfed. It's a weak, minor alternative to Dylovene. It's shit against everything except really minor toxins.

One of the things I like here is that a lot of herbal or alternative remedies have actual mechanical reinforcement. Making tea, one of the most iconic herbal remedies, do nothing, would just feel so shitty.

[Butterrobber202]

Keep tea as it is, it’s nice to have it when there are no chemists around.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Tea's healing affects treat minor symptoms related to toxin damage related to radiation and spider venom but it does not treat the source of the toxins. It's a minor medicinal benefit that lets botanist-inclined characters help you out. A character brewing you tea for medicinal benefits sounds like good roleplay. It's such a small thing that adds a little bit of flavor to things and it is not a replacement to dyvolene. This seems like a really mean spirited suggestion.

[keinto]

Except you can get tea from vending machines and medical has started to refuse treating people for toxin damage and instead tell them to go get tea because kek it's a game.

[Ornias]

1 unit of dylovene is either worth 5 or 10 units of toxins gone, that's a lot of waste in chemical in the end as syringes only work in fives.

It's up to medical to decide the treatment. If soemone thinks tea is the best way, it's their choice. Take it to CMO if you think treatment is unsuitable.

Keep tea as it is, it’s nice to have it when there are no chemists around.

it's a viable option of medical treatment that can be prescribed by a medic, it preserves medbays resources

The trend with this is "it's useful mechanically". Yes, it preserves resources. Yes, it makes things easier. But poisoning shouldn't be easy to fix. It requires special medication. And the fact that CMO's, doctors, and even regular civilians are just telling people to drink tea after being poisoned in some way just takes you out of the moment.

Also:

nobody would ever use tea for a spider bite and unless you provide evidence of it, I don't really believe someone did.

lmao i wish. https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9636&p=88228

 

A character brewing you tea for medicinal benefits sounds like good roleplay. It's such a small thing that adds a little bit of flavor to things and it is not a replacement to dyvolene.

It does sound like good RP. I really wish it was. But it's not providing any kind of roleplay at all - it's being prescribed by CMO's as a legitimate medication, instead of just being something they're advised to do alongside their treatment.

 

0.5 to 5 toxins from shit is not 'serious poisoning' so please don't over exaggerate. The tea works for minor toxins very well.

Only you can just. Drink a ton of tea from the vending machines for practically no cost, and clear up large amounts of poisoning.

I agree it could be interesting, if done very tastefully and applied with other medication, but it's not; it's becoming a part of server culture that "oh, this is a quick fix to toxins damage", and is being used instead of properly treating the individual from a realistic standpoint.

[Mwahahahaha]

Could I just butt in to also mention that this is tea we're talking about here?

I recall reading the code comments related to the reagent effects saying something along the lines of "because it has antioxidants... or something like that".

It's going to take far more than several cups of "black tart tea", first of all, to even see the effects of that. This stuff has immediate effects at such a severe intensity. As Keinto pointed out: I have seen first-hand people who just rushed the vending machine, doing that card-spam trick, then proceed to sprint back to someone puking their guts up and then pouring tea down their throat like a gas-guzzler. Countless times.

 

 

This stuff. That is used to just casually t-

I mean can you imagine someone with porphyria just walks in and all they get from a doctor is:

"Okay kiddo here's my note of prescription:

20x cups of tea

any tea

just tea"

and off they go?

Do you realise how ridiculous this looks in way of maintaining immersion?

I am going to have to personally disagree with the whole idea of 'preserving resources' and 'introducing alternatives', because that to me just seems like a mechanical excuse of having some sort of 100% perfect round; we could be accepting the challenge here, the conflict here, when there are no medical professionals around to assist. Likewise, this is not the only way to involve other people: it's not like all of a sudden we need 'tea' to involve other people. This game has much more creative potential than that, I believe.

But could you just play this back in your heads? Someone's been exposed to VX gas or something, and then out on the radio, someone's chanting "DRINK TEA!!!"-- it- it- I'm sorry, but I, in my opinion, think that's just ridiculous.

Trust me: the game gets a lot more boring a lot quicker if you don't accept having an obstacle. If we're just going to flick it away every single time then what could you expect when you find yourself sitting around going "Oh how I wish someone got severely injured."

And could I also point out that tea has other effects besides antitoxin? But I admit that applies to quite a number of other beverages.

As someone else also pointed out: a few single digits of damage can hardly be considered "serious poisoning" — yet at the same time, people treat it as though it is. The moment someone lights up on that monitor, you're going to have little Mr/Ms Guardian Angel asking questions and going straight for treatment. The moment someone's health even dips below 100, generally speaking, people will be seeking out something to rectify that — and in some cases, as I've witnessed countless times, would be going so out of their way and do whatever they can to get it.

Tea. For God's sake.

Cardiac arrest on the floor treated by hero bartender who hops the counter with two cuppas in their hand.

Or- Or- Or people going to get drunk and knowing straight off the bat to drink tea with it as they go along.

I don't think we're taking this very seriously.

[LordFowl]

Voting for dismissal.

Certain common items having effects such as vodka healing radiation or tea healing toxins is not disruptive to game balance, especially when the tea heals so little. It merely adds flavour and some harmless edge-cases. Even if these hypothetical powergamers of yours somehow managed to micromanage 20+ cups of tea for their cardiac arrest or their drunkenness, it would only serve to reduce their budget and soften their symptoms as the tea only heals the toxin, not the source of the damage. If you still can't help but want for some way to nurse your wounded immersion you are still free to ahelp people who just down 20+ cups of tea. Beyond that, as others have pointed out, many of the hypothetical extreme cases you construct tend to be just that - extreme cases. The common use of tea is far more benign.

[Doc]

I see no points in this thread that are a result of "tea encouraging unrealistic roleplaying" as much as I do points that are "I failed to properly report unrealistic roleplaying when I saw it."

My point being, we can nitpick minor mechanics in the code all day, all week, all month, all year, and it will never, ever, completely end unrealistic roleplaying. Instead, it needs to be explained to them that what they are doing is bad roleplaying and, in fact, against the rules, so that it simply stops happening in general.

Adminhelp doctors, CMOs, prescribing tea/turning patients away because they can drink tea.

Adminhelp people suffering from toxins who rush for and spam tea.

Adminhelp people carrying around tea just to deal with minor toxins, and no realistic reason.

They'll be told not to do it. They'll either stop, and in general become a better contributor to the server community and roleplaying environment, or eventually they'll get banned.

[Kaed]

This is Future Tea. Duke Purple is a GMO that is laced with antitoxins that make it a mass producible, weaker version of dyvolene. There you go, there's your explanation.

/thread

In all seriousness, I have in plans right now to redo the entirety of of tea with an update, and this is a good time to bring it up. I will run through some of the ideas I have in place for it, and you tell me if you like them.

-All tea currently in game (vender and dispenser teas) is going to be replaced with generic Duke Purple 'Artificial Tea', which is basically 'tea' as much as the syrupy stuff you get from fast food fountains. This will still function for the purpose of drinks and stuff that require tea, but it will lose it's medicinal properties.

-A number of tea (and mint, perhaps) related plant variants will be added to the hydroponics system. I'm not sure yet if these will be shoved in with the other seeds (I don't like this one), dispensed from a special Tea Seeds Machine, or ordered from cargo as seed boxes like 2-3 seed pouches each.

-Teas are grown like other plants, but when you harvest it, you don't eat it straight, because it has no significant nutritional value. Instead, you dry the tea using that drying machine (I will add one to hydroponics maybe, since it seems to be missing one?). This will come up later

-The kitchen will gain a special item, a kettle, which can be picked up and filled with water, and then... I guess microwaved, because we don't have anything resembling a stove right now, and it's the only thing that makes moderate sense. (Might have to add a counter top stove or something...) Anyway, the kettle turns water into Hot Water, when properly utilized (which also will eventually turn back into regular water if left sitting too long).

-The assorted dried tea/mint plants are either ground up and mixed together into blends, or just placed whole into the kettle to create various kinds of teas, a process which requires a wait time for the tea to steep before being poured out as a tasty drink. These teas will have various (mild) medicinal or buffing qualities, one of which will be curing toxins, but there will be other stuff, too. Still mentally spitballing all this.

[Jennalele]

-The kitchen will gain a special item, a kettle, which can be picked up and filled with water, and then... I guess microwaved, because we don't have anything resembling a stove right now, and it's the only thing that makes moderate sense. (Might have to add a counter top stove or something...) Anyway, the kettle turns water into Hot Water, when properly utilized (which also will eventually turn back into regular water if left sitting too long).

 

You do realize there are many kettles that are electric/work without being placed on a stove..right? It could just. Heat itself.

Still. I like this.

[Kaed]

You do realize there are many kettles that are electric/work without being placed on a stove..right? It could just. Heat itself.

Still. I like this.

 

I actually had never heard of such a thing until just now but it makes a lot of sense and solves the problem! Maybe I'll put a battery in the kettle that can be taken out and recharged, or replaced with a better battery..

[Mwahahahaha]

Could I also mention — in a horrifically late response — that they have been reported, only for the response to be along just the same lines that have been brought up here: "tea has healing properties; therefore, it's okay"?

 

 

Do you really need me to sift through my entire collection of logs, especially when this is about a group behaviour in the community here? Just try it yourself and you'll see. I could try showing you more logs if you want but — I'm just saying — it'll take a while to sift through them.

We can report about as many people as we like, but that's not going to change the fact that people are still doing this without thinking.

Again:

TEA that HEALS PEOPLE in SECONDS.

 

This. Fixing people with arsenic poisoning right off the bat in a few sips — yet people throw this into harbours?

 

Yes, it seems like such a small petty thing, but this is the topic about that one thing, out of many. You would be surprised at how much difference even the tiniest things can make; how can we call ourselves a HRP server if we can't even be bothered to even think about something "so basic and simple", to the point we just flick it away without ever allowing for discussion just because you disagree with it? Overall, this isn't just about tea having healing properties here. If it comes to the point where people insist on using just tea because they KNOW that it heals hey-presto, then we really need to start wondering about a few things here:

How can we call ourselves HRP if we can't even sustain a believable atmosphere? I have seen tonnes of people leave by the numbers now because we couldn't do that. If mechanics takes such a precedence over immersion, then why bother going to HRP in the first place when there are tonnes of other places, that would get what one would want far better because it was designed specifically with that mindset as a goal? This is one of the few places where people would really hope when they come in, to find an atmosphere they can immerse themselves with, and not have to be dicked over by people yodelling at them on how to play the game "correctly". I understand that we may have different ideas of what "roleplay" means, but please understand that there are the set of people who get fucked over because people want to stick to mechanics. How is that fair? Why does one side get more favour than the other? Why are there even sides here?

It is so

easy

to stick by the mechanics and stay with those bare bone minimums. Because it is so convenient for us as players — but if that's the case, then you have to ask yourselves: are we really role playing at this point? Making everything easy for ourselves to deal with as players? It's like playing a game on the easiest difficulty with cheats on over and over again. And you know, maybe that's how you want to play that game: fine. But to insist that of other people?

I beg your pardon, but "our wounded immersion" should be taken into a higher consideration than one might think — especially since it is a server rule to do your best not to break it.

 

 

 

 

This happens all the time, so "ahelping it" is not going to do much, as above. Don't kid yourself: on my observation, experience, and opinion, a lot of people here just want to win the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or how about the fact that people wear hardsuits and voidsuits from start to finish all the way right through without ever taking them off? "Hypothetical" indeed.

 

My point being, we can nitpick minor mechanics in the code all day, all week, all month, all year, and it will never, ever, completely end unrealistic roleplaying.

And I would agree with this. But what is being done right now? Because this will just keep going on and we'd just accept it just because everyone else is doing it. Punishing someone is not going to solve anything if it's in our behaviour of which we are perpetuating to INSIST that we are right no matter what, because people are just going to leave without ever understanding what went "wrong". Because we already treat something as so "right", without ever stopping to consider it. Now I'm by no means saying ALL OF Y'ALL ARE FUCKIN' BLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND. But I would like to say that if we don't even try to understand where someone is coming from, then what's the point?

But look, I don't want to start going on a witch hunt here or digressing too much from the topic at hand. But my point is that this isn't just about tea having immediate and effective healing properties per se; even then though, why would it?

We are letting so many people who come here down. Why bother coming here if we can't even live up to the name? If you honestly cannot see why "something so small and unimportant" is being brought up by someone, then why even encourage any room for discussion? Maybe I'm being dramatic here (and by all means please point that out), but please at least take into consideration that this "little trivial matter" has managed to come to a point where it has been brought up for specific reasons.

And from an antag point of view:

How do you spike people's tea with toxins? Okay sure, you can just use more, but what if-- when people just keep on insisting on drinking more tea the moment they see "Your body stings slightly."?

Obstacles exist, and I would, personally, at least say that they're meant to exist. If we keep throwing them away for the sake of our convenience as players, then from a mechanical point of view: how is it going to be any fun? Conflict can come in far more vastly different forms than just the one of "shoot shoot bang bang someone is dead station is in chaos".

[Mwahahahaha]

Now with all that nonsense aside, I would also like to say I am personally interested in Kaed's suggestions. I think that would help a big tonne here on this aspect.

Because, to me:

A) It would make a lot more sense

B) It would add more to the game

C) I personally hope it would come off as a good compromise here based on some of the points already brought up by others

[Zundy]

I get that some of you don't personally like it which is fine but how would this improve gameplay? Don't resort to realism as an argument as the game isn't realistic and people only ever use that argument when talking about things they personally dislike. If you wanted realism you wouldn't be playing on the Aurora.

I can get behind removing its benefits if you can explain from a gameplay perspective why this would be a good thing. If the argument is just "I personally don't like it" then that's fine too but I personally do like it. I like Kaeds idea though which is also a good example of a gameplay fix - still does heal but is harder to get and stops it being a go to.

Also you should be admin helping these things, I do when I see it. It's only rampant because people don't ahelp when they see it.

[Mwahahahaha]

Don't resort to realism as an argument as the game isn't realistic and people only ever use that argument when talking about things they personally dislike.

But how is this any different to someone arguing that we need to follow a game purely by mechanics and them using that argument when talking about people who try to do something else to that?

And, hey, you're right. This is a sci-fi game. This isn't necessarily about "realism", but BELIEVABILITY. Surely you would disagree with something like a 17-year-old high school kid having the position of Chief Medical Officer, rambling on about how their life sucks and their parents are dead and then blatantly fondling their special serpent necklace whenever a single person walks into the same room?

when talking about things they personally dislike.

Yes, but doesn't this apply to just about everyone? This is a game we all come here to have fun and enjoy, and yes, we have slightly different ways of having fun. So OF COURSE people are going to say that, and rightfully, I feel, they can. After all, what are forums for? We have threads on ban requests and complaints, and anyone could tell you when they take one look at them that this is at least based on the fact in some partial way that this is something they personally disagree with — lest they wouldn't be making a complaint in the first place.

 

but how would this improve gameplay?

Obstacles exist, and I would, personally, at least say that they're meant to exist. If we keep throwing them away for the sake of our convenience as players, then from a mechanical point of view: how is it going to be any fun? Conflict can come in far more vastly different forms than just the one of "shoot shoot bang bang someone is dead station is in chaos".

Let me try to put it like this: if you had a character that could do every single thing in the game, would that really be fun in the end? Not just for you, but for everyone else with their roles?

 

Also you should be admin helping these things, I do when I see it. It's only rampant because people don't ahelp when they see it.

Right, but again: it is. And I understand that we tend to operate under "staff's word is final", but yet we are also told to understand that they too are human. What happens if, hypothetically speaking, they don't quite see it any other way to even understand why there is a conflict between two parties to begin with? Things happen for a reason.

Even then: what happens when the entire server is on it? Because I have seen first-hand moderators tell me that they would personally agree with something on someone, but it's just it's the "status quo" of what everyone else is saying. And look, this is an extreme analogy, so feel free to call me out on it: but if everyone suddenly managed to get to a point where everyone was sticking their characters' dicks into vaginas across the station right on this server? Everyone demands for it, but does that make it "okay"? I don't even have to go that far:

What about cloning? "Oh, I'm cloned? Rgh. Time to get the bastard that got me. Let me out, doc'."

Holodecks? "Bah, this doesn't really hurt: this is just a training thing."

Civilians suddenly taking up arms whenever armed mercenaries in military-grade gear come in? R&D suddenly, miraculously "researching experimental weapons" that they already know what is going to be like so that they can now go out and shoot a motherclucker.

Even when these things are being reported, it still happens. Because no-one is trying. And what doesn't help either, is that when it comes to that point, it doesn't help that we run some sort of black ops operation and aren't transparent about what why something happened, for some cases. Particularly a recent one too. And I understand that's to protect the identity of someone here, but you can still do that. Because this isn't about some witch hunt and shaming an individual — if it comes to that, then what does that speak of our community? I have seen so many people that have left because they feel we are toxic, and I have proof to back that up. The fact that we can't even see that being a possibility just makes it all the more dangerous. If we can't even be bothered to take a look at the mirror, then who are we to speak of another's characteristics?

We don't need to go around seeking punishments of players because that's not what a game should be about, I would argue. Yet here we are. It won't change anything, because it still happens, and because people barely ever learn out of this. But the worst thing of all is that it could have been resolved a much more different way. You do realise that the implications and connotations behind staff intervention, along with things like player complaints and incident reports, go well beyond than just the apparent professional and unbiased paragon we try to make them out to be? Even if the intent was just to be a friendly sit-down, it will be stressful, and nerve-wracking, and quite easily seen as an attack. It is a natural instinct for one to feel the need to defend themselves. I mean-- look at me right now! And then- that? Combined with my perception that people tend to always think that they're in the right? That is a deadly combination to the entirety of community integrity. We should be trying to avoid those things, not seeking them out!

 

It's only rampant because people don't ahelp when they see it.

Indeed, but so it's rampant, then why does it have to come to a point where it needs to be ahelped expecting action to be taken because it's perceived to be against server rules when staff would easily see it for themselves? So it's rampant, that could suggest a whole majority of people are doing it, too, which might then suggest why "no-one is(/appears to be) ahelping it".

 

If you wanted realism you wouldn't be playing on the Aurora.

My apologies for coming off as attacking you here, by the way, Zundy, so please understand that I'm not-

Like-

I love you.

But try to picture this:

You're a new player looking for a new server that does high/heavy/hard roleplay. Take a look at the BYOND server list now. Not even a quarter of those would be marked as HRP. When Aurora is marked as one, what could you expect? Because what difference are we, again, from something that does MRP instead, if we can't uphold any sort of atmosphere? People come here justifiably hoping to find "realism". Where else can they go? If we can't even be fucked to even try — and I mean really try — then why call ourselves HRP?

And you know, you're right. "You wouldn't be playing on the Aurora" is exactly what people had in mind when they left. They got fed up of trying only to be knocked back down, and what seemed like everyone just discouraging them from doing it in the first place. So much disappointment because they thought we were supposed to be encouraging this, when we've been doing the opposite, I feel.

But going back to tea here without the cosmic rambling and more on a "superficial level": as TheDocOct argues, I would agree that this won't change the fact that people do these things in the first place. So my other argument for me is that I don't see how tea healing people makes much sense.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Guest

[Scheveningen]

Okay, damn. You made like two huge posts going on about ahelpworthy things right after a post said these are situations worth ahelping over. It is not the fucking tea that is the problem. It is players being stupid. The only fix for terminal OOC stupidity is a server ban and that's all that can be prescribed. Tea is hardly impactful enough in the game to be a problem.

[Alberyk]

A solution would just limit how much toxins the tea can heal, so for example: if you have less than five units of toxin, the tea can slowly heal those, but if it is more, you will need to go to medical. Which will prevent people from drinking liters of tea to counter any poison.

[Kaed]

A solution would just limit how much toxins the tea can heal, so for example: if you have less than five units of toxin, the tea can slowly heal those, but if it is more, you will need to go to medical. Which will prevent people from drinking liters of tea to counter any poison.

 

I think I'll do that two base game tea instead of removing it's healing entirely

[ReynTheLord]

I never even knew drinking tea healed toxins, honestly. Huh. Seems odd... BUt not too broken. Toxins tend to be a pain in the ass to heal as it is if you aren't brought over to medbay, and Honestly, if someone's drinking fucking barrels of tea, they should probably be bwoinked for metagaming, because people USUALLY wouldn't drink a metric fuckton of tea to recover from toxins. Sure, Sip some tea when toxins damage is present, but don't use it as a fucking medical supply instead of a beverage. Instead of removing healing, just make it so admins pay attention if someone decides to down 50 cups of tea, or hell, even give tea overdose possibility. There are other ways to solve this than removing the healing, which don't require touching the code of the tea too much.

[Pacmandevil]

Just make it raise body temp ezpz