Departmental Security

[TheOrleans]

 

On 30/12/2018 at 15:28, Lent23 said:

I genuinely think this is a good idea.

tl;dr good idea pls do

You know?

I was against this suggestion, like SO against it

But then this reply I'm quoting made me change my mind

Officer is one of the jobs I play the most, and well, it could be cool to have this system.

I think giving an energy pistol to each officer may be a bit too much? I mean, permanent lethals on each officer.. hm

 

However, removing HoS is probably not a good decision. Someone in charge of a Billion-Worth Research Station is probably needed

I think that this idea has to be well polished, since I played the April fool's round (as officer) where this happened and it was total chaos

Edited April 8, 2019 by TheOrleans

[ComradeCorbyn]

I like it.

Just please fix the disposal piping and power wires.

The primary issues I see with Departmental Security is that of the designation and tasks of the officers. Right now, I don't believe there are clear enough boundaries for officers, and it's most critically viewable when the General Officer is SSD, or there isn't one in the first place. It's a scramble at the moment, with unorganized chaos taking the place of a once better system. That doesn't mean I oppose it, though, as it's mostly intentional.

But something needs to be changed about it, which I would recommend giving the Security frequency back to departmental officers to communicate to each other, while not infringing on the reason why they are departmentalized. 

 

EDIT: also maybe request consoles in each office

Edited April 8, 2019 by ComradeCorbyn

[Zelmana]

This was tested on 4/8. It was horrible. Security, when a situation was ongoing, lacked ability to collaboratively work. The addition of offices only meant even less roleplay, as they would sit around in their offices. On a non-dept security round, the security would typically be doing regular patrols through all of the department lobbies.

Of course, there is some issue with certain department lacking any public lobby, and there is little roleplay interaction between security to those departments. Or, departments that have characters who are routinely stepping away to do other tasks.

I feel as though there are better departments to split up for the sake of roleplay. Ones whose entire staff sit in one room location of the station, and not security (whose entire purpose is to walk around the entirety of the station during the duration of the round). Of course, an optimal choice for this would be medical.

 

I do not like this.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I disagree with this change per the results of the recent live tests. It has gone how i have forseen.

[AmoryBlaine]

>have to use PDAs, or non-standard frequencies in order to communicate with the rest of the team
>have to rely on a warden in order to access the processing terminal
>have to sacrifice a department-specific officer in order to keep the brig secure if there is not a warden
>recieving general frequency, a non-standard frequency and """your department's""" frequency, ensuring a clogged chat log
>out of view of your supposed department's lobby, if you want to watch cameras meaning you need to choose between cameras, or the supposed interaction this project intends to bring
 

I have such a strong distaste for this project, one cannot conceive of it. It kills what little fluidity and control was in security, and replaces it with a new colour in my chat log.

[Munks]

Add another General officer, the non-departmental officer currently is tasked with hallways, on both main and surface as well as most of maintenance. The option should be present either for two officers to buddy up, or to cover more ground since they have by far the most in their jurisdiction. While it's true that they can request assistance from the synthetics, borgs are beholden to their laws first and foremost and should not be factored in when balancing the population of Security (as it's entirely likely other modules will be chosen).

The chain of command for departmental officers (as is shown when joining in, currently they answer to their department-specific head) should be revised to factor in the Head of Security as their primary leader. I get the reasoning for having the departmental officers beholden to the leader of that department, since having someone with thorough access to your department that you can't really control if they get out of line would be a hassle, but on the other hand someone with actual Security experience and education would be needed to supervise the officers; and departmental heads shouldn't have sole authority over their officers since I can already see it being an unfortunate issue with certain heads of staff not liking being held to regulation, and easily being able to get rid of the scrutinizing officer with some made up excuse as "insubordination" etc. They should answer to the Head of Security, with it noted that they pay special attention and respect to the wishes of the department they are securing.

[VTCobaltblood]

1 hour ago, Zelmana said:

The addition of offices only meant even less roleplay, as they would sit around in their offices.

Are you serious? I've had the most RP with a security officer I've had in a while. The security officer assigned to Science was basically anywhere but the office (in a good way), and it really did give the department a sense of a safe presence. We had tons of fantastic RP situations, and a traitor who was easily and quickly detained as soon as I've seen them in the department. I can't imagine a random patrolling officer gladly coming to hunt bears with me, care to protect me during the SM delam, respond to a reported trespassing in like 15 seconds or so, and resolve a hostage situation in my department as quickly, quietly and painlessly as it went in this round.

I don't know, maybe I'm the only person who doesn't care about the balance in this game, but RP-wise, it has been absolutely fantastic so far. Elated about this change, can't wait for more test rounds.

Edited April 8, 2019 by VTCobaltblood

[AmoryBlaine]

1 minute ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Are you serious? I had the most RP with a security officer I've had in a while. The security officer assigned to Science was basically anywhere but the office (in a good way), and it really did give the department a sense of a safe presence. We had tons of fantastic RP situations, and a traitor who was easily and quickly detained as soon as I've seen them in the department.

A useless office, a focus on isolated RP within departments. There's guest passes- I feel like I alone use them- that allow people to enter your department without someone having to open the door. If you WANT officers in your department, give them a guest pass. If I WANT people in security, I give them a guest pass. This covers scientists testing weapons, EMTs, and engineers, all of whom could realistically hang around any other department. Why is it that I can manage to find means to interacting with the rest of the crew, but others require a massive change that cripples security, AND, does what is stated below. I also have to ask, why do you feel unsafe in your own department?

Quote

A traitor who was easily and quickly detained as soon as I've seen them in the department.

Put an officer everywhere, at all times- except the halls, no, only have a single officer out there, we're expecting our threats within the ID locked departments, among the crew- not an exterior threat, or one that is within the crew, but outside of their work area. Further more, if it's a lone antag, they get fucked. If it's a team, Sec gets fucked. This is not balanced.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, VTCobaltblood said:

had tons of fantastic RP situations, and a traitor who was easily and quickly detained as soon as I've seen them in the department.

Not a lot of rp for the traitor

[Conspiir]

I admit, I still am in love with the idea. But as it's currently test-merged, it's still just an idea. The execution has been very poor. Power issues, basic equipment missing, removal of some station items or important locations to make room for the sec offices (off the top of my head: no garage into the cyborg chargers is an annoyance and that robotics room now looks cramped, the utensil vendor in the bar is gone, the drinks machine outside cargo--the only one in the aft part of the station that was only recently added--is also gone), unclear chain of command, etc. It's mucking the waters between what's a result of departmentalized security and what's a result of poor execution of departmentalized security.

 

Playing my Quartermaster, I had hoped to interact with some Supply Officers. I spoke to them perhaps twice over the radio across two or three rounds, and never got to meet them in person to have them hang out. (Though I did swap to mining for a round and saw the officer more in 30 seconds than I had the previous officers of the rounds before). And I don't feel like it's really their fault. But it seems like there's such an emphasis on "they have an office they're expected to be in" that kind of bothers me. The Quartermaster has an office I'm sure they're expected to be in. I walk in, collect my stamp and GPS, and walk out to be with my coworkers. Why is it hard for security to do the same? Cameras, I suppose. But why watch the cameras if your job is looking through a department that's right there? This feels like stuff that should be cleared up.

 

Perhaps the worst of it is the attitude I've come across. It sucks, yes, it does, I'm not disputing that. But having angry officers and OOC isn't helping, swear down. ICly, it isn't anyone's fault. There's no one to get angry at. OOCly, yes, we get it, a dozen others have said the same thing, we understand. Just take it one day at a time. Put out feelers on what to fix. If it can't be fixed or it just isn't working, scrap it. But even if we don't go through with departmental sec (and in its current state, please god no), we should be able to take something away from this.

[TheOrleans]

3 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

Power issues, basic equipment missing

Also, the General Officer closet had the Cargo Officer items.

I still like the idea, but the reality is that players need time to adapt, and the idea has to be very VERY well polished

I like the interaction with a department when assigned to it, it's cool and all, but there was zero cooperation between officers and that meant total chaos

 

Also, if this happens, who will patrol hallways and everything? A single general officer who will get fucked without any backup arriving soon when the first antag appears?

[Mogelix]

1. As a departmental security officer, I don't get access to most if not all of the brig, which will make lone sec just this little bit worse. I also can't access security voidsuits in EVA. Oh look, I ALSO CANNOT ACCESS PROCESSING.
Seriously? Why would you deprive officers of the ability to process. Think a little. Not every rounds gonna have a fully stacked security team.

2. The brigs 'calm RP' places have been removed. The bathroom I quite frequently used to change my hairstyle, and I know many used it as a place to easily AFK. I also remember many fun RP interactions between officers occurred in the breakroom.

3. As a result of this PR which was supported for breaking departmental cliques and forcing security to RP more, security is now more isolated then ever. Any comradery they faced with other officers is no longer allowed as that would involve leaving their designated box or using the security radio they don't have. And you don't get much RP with your assigned department because they view you as a stupid brute/a intruder.

4. Departmental security doesn't know what it's doing. They can't call out "Intruder over here!" or they attract the entire station. They can't relay information to security as a whole without alerting everyone to the contents of what they're attempting to relay.

5. Departmental Security also doesn't know what's going on. If their department gets contact with intruders, they're department are the only ones that know, since alerting the rest of Depsec via common may be cumbersome or worsen the situation. Worse even, the few that do have access to security headsets may encounter the antags. So now it's not a situation of "Only security can RPwith the antags" its "Only command and security that has security channel can RP with antags."

 

Really just a bad idea. Drop it. Let it go. It might've been good in your head, but it's not worth enduring this crap.

EDIT: Let me just say none of these are fun difficulties. I'm all for including intentional weaknesses of security but this is too much.

 

5 hours ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Not a lot of rp for the traitor

This. I'm not for maximum efficiency. Security needs to have drawbacks. And that drawback, was access. Their cameras could only see so much. They couldn't get places without a co-operative ID. Their strength, was communication. Something going wrong but don't want literally everyone running to it? Just call out on sec channel. This change flipped it around, Security has access but no communication. And you've fucked with the whole antag balance, which was access over communication

Security has gone from a formless mob to a formless mob that can't communicate but is constantly in your face.

 

As a departmental sec, you are not part of that department. You have no clue what they're departments talking about. You're a outsider, a intruder. If you're just a calm dude who hasn't been actively sucking up to every department, your now forced into a position where you either RP with people who will have the same 'lol fuck security' attitude, or you just stay in your office. I don't wanna wave at  every person who passes my airlock. That's not interesting or fun at all, and with the new RP standard I doubt I'd get a fucking wave back half the time.

 

How many people need to scream "I DO NOT LIKE THIS" before you realize that sometimes, you will have to revert things or they will damage your servers playerbase. A change should be supported by a huge majority, and this is not a huge majority. There's a huge minority against this, but a small majority for it. That means, alot people are pissed.

Those offices are isolated. Don't let anyone tell you anything else. Medbay your not even on the same fucking Z level as the rest. And if you leave your department, your compromising security. If you leave your office, your obstructing people who have jobs to do. And not every characters designed for outgoing RP and behaviour. You can't realistically expect realistic characters to not just sit in their office

I really enjoyed just sitting on the front desk of the security lobby greeting people and sorting out small disputes, but now I can't even enter the brig and just chill there because that's against my role.

You can't realistically expect realistic characters to not just sit in their office

 

On 28/03/2019 at 20:30, LordFowl said:

I'm not going to try and dissect the paranoid rhetoric of an anti-security ,conspiracy but-

There is a anti-security conspiracy. The snowflakey admins and pandered to "regulars  that've never played security over their cutesy waifu characters want security as weak as possible. They've openly stated this. And they do it again. And again. Because its just a joke right? Who'd want to... remove security (or atleast weaken it to the point of inneffectuality) and force a certain RP style on all characters?

And yet they are doing that! They're in the process of doing it right now. This test merge causes apathy.  Admins blare on OOC on all discussions, "I'm gonna make sure this gets through! It's already through, give up!"

It's fashionable to hate security. And this is going to be the ultimate climax of this pent up anti-sec agenda.

 

We didn't need to make a change this radical. We coulda just done what ziy says. You spawn at the brig (WHICH IS EXACTLY THE SAME), the HOS has the ability to assign you departments, or just not assign departments if that's his doctrine. You keep ALL OF YOUR NORMAL SEC ACCESS. Processing, EVA, but you also get access to atleast the main hallway + sublevel of that department. Some sort of limited keycard modification device. But no. Of course we didn't do that. Instead, we got this isolated box office crap.

I'm for change. I'm not for this change.

 

 

8 hours ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

I disagree with this change per the results of the recent live tests. It has gone how i have forseen.

But we're just paranoid! We were just so reactionary, of course it wouldn't be thaaaaaaaat bad!

Right?
Truth is, even sec mains, have brains. They've played sec. They know sec. They know departmental relations, and they know that this is the best way to isolate security. What's next? Are we just gonna let every department start with one stunbaton, a taser and handcuffs, replace the holodeck with a mob rule prison?

 

On 20/03/2019 at 04:06, LordFowl said:

Implemented here; https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6173

I've reversed my opinion after considering that this will decentralize security somewhat without actually nerfing them or making security unfun. The HoS still has power in that they control the brig and the armory, and can shape tactical actions by providing resources, and are ultimately in charge of security actions outside of a given department. Meanwhile this will alleviate the problem of "sec gets all the fun in antag rounds" because now sec is just another bloke in the department, without actually buffing or nerfing sec as a whole.

And look fowl, it didn't. Last round I played, captain just shouted "Non security personell is not allowed here and here." We excluded people from danger zones. And now, even internal and stealthier antags won't have any breathing room as they now aren't under attack by cameras, they've got a officer goosestepping up to them if they litter.

I'm against this on so many fucking levels. It defeats the reason I play sec, and as you can see, it's not because I like watching antags suffer.

[Scheveningen]

1 minute ago, Mogelix said:

Truth is, even sec mains, have brains.

debatable, based on the conspiracy theory nonsense already seen written from the standpoint of 'the sec mains'. not an amazing demonstration of discussing points and perspectives in a logical and fair way

Edited April 9, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Scheveningen]

1 minute ago, Mogelix said:

It defeats the reason I play sec, and as you can see, it's not because I like watching antags suffer.

how does this affect your playstyle exactly, could you break down your process of how you played security prior to the test merge?

[Arrow768]

@Mogelix Thank you for your insights.

Keep in mind that we are currently testmerging it to figure out how exactly that effects the round dynamic and if this is a change worth keeping.

I advice you to not pay too much attention to what $people say in OOC about pushing through the change.
The only two people who can merge something in are the two Head-Devs and I assure you that we wont merge this PR until we are satisfied with the changes and believe it is a change the the better.

Regarding the posts: I merged them together and advice you to format them accordingly.

[Mogelix]

yeah i'll format them correctly

EDIT: thank you kind soul who edited them for me for i could not figure out how to copy quotes

Edited April 9, 2019 by Mogelix

[Mogelix]

14 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

how does this affect your playstyle exactly, could you break down your process of how you played security prior to the test merge?

I sit around in the brig and chat with my fellow officers, or I leave and patrol the hallways, pop around and greet some departments. I can't do any of that now. I gotta sit in one departments isolated box.

[Snakebittenn]

Having played as the Purple Ranger, I've been absolutely fond of the experience of being a departmental officer. Being used as the designated muscle, the bodyguard, the bouncer, is lovely. I haven't had any issues with 'being stuck in a box' because you don't have to. There's no real benefit to it, chances are someone in your department is at the lobby anyway. It's a more personal experience, and it's mechanically and conceptually, someone designed to be there for you when you need help/something lifted/something beaten. Then again, I don't have much interest, personally, in engaging with the rest of Security over engaging with the rest of my department. I view myself much more as a member of my assigned department than a member of Security.

[Mogelix]

Just now, ParadoxSpace said:

Having played as the Purple Ranger, I've been absolutely fond of the experience of being a departmental officer. Being used as the designated muscle, the bodyguard, the bouncer, is lovely. I haven't had any issues with 'being stuck in a box' because you don't have to. There's no real benefit to it, chances are someone in your department is at the lobby anyway. It's a more personal experience, and it's mechanically and conceptually, someone designed to be there for you when you need help/something lifted/something beaten. Then again, I don't have much interest, personally, in engaging with the rest of Security over engaging with the rest of my department. I view myself much more as a member of my assigned department than a member of Security.

But your not a bouncer. Your a security guard. When push comes to shove, your going to have to give up the 'waving at passerbys' game and communicate with sec to defeat a competent and well equipped enemy. And you can't do that without setting up complicated, cumbersome, and flawed things.

[Snakebittenn]

Turning to the crew to assist Security is probably a wise idea. If not to assist them, atleast to bunker the department down.

[Mogelix]

Just now, ParadoxSpace said:

Turning to the crew to assist Security is probably a wise idea. If not to assist them, atleast to bunker the department down.

There's other ways to do that. That aren't isolating and unfun. You can nerf securities equipment. I'm fine with that. I'm tired of seeing security like soldiers. Now their soldiers propped against departments that usually despise them. This isn't bloody french resistance RP, is it?

[Snakebittenn]

The departments will hate you less if you're part of their department. Science officer is essentially a member of science if they roleplay it correctly. The 'people hate Security' mostly comes from Security feeling like a separate entity to the rest of the crew.

[Scheveningen]

14 minutes ago, Mogelix said:

But your not a bouncer. Your a security guard. When push comes to shove, your going to have to give up the 'waving at passerbys' game and communicate with sec to defeat a competent and well equipped enemy. And you can't do that without setting up complicated, cumbersome, and flawed things.

I see this on Secret Club where the baron's already silenced comms for smerds (aka low-born class workers) to prevent them from being able to communicate over the radio network. These people meet in person to discuss how to carry out their plots for good or ill. The distance and the cumbersome nature is irrelevant to people who want to carry out their plans. When an individual is motivated enough to stop a grave threat, they will not care about how difficult or cumbersome the resolution to a situation is. They will drive themselves to resolve it their way or die trying (in-game).

If their game's community is capable of doing this, so are we. The difficulty of accomplishing a task is irrelevant to me because I log on to be challenged with various situations in-character. I log on to face down conflict or create it myself, and reap excellent reactions out of putting my best effort forward to accomplish what I want done. I do not always succeed, but failure is a teacher, and I am an attentive student. The meek characters will choose not to do anything about conflict and will be pushed aside as background characters. The ones who choose to be active in their involvement of the round will drive the narrative and experience forward and have the most enjoyment from their efforts. The goal of every officer before this change was to protect the station, its assets and its crucial personnel, in that order. The department divisions have perhaps changed up the priorities a little, but each departmental officer has a more relevant task of focusing on the post they are stationed in. They are expected to do whatever they can, even fight, to protect their department and the department's personnel.

Do, or do not. Admission that you can only 'try' to accomplish what you want in a round is akin to admitting that you expect to fail, and merely insisting that others shouldn't be so disappointed when you do. Either be convinced you can succeed when you intend to roleplay on this server or don't try at all.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Mogelix]

4 minutes ago, ParadoxSpace said:

The departments will hate you less if you're part of their department. Science officer is essentially a member of science if they roleplay it correctly. The 'people hate Security' mostly comes from Security feeling like a separate entity to the rest of the crew.

Except they aren't. They'll condescend you. You have to play a uber-likeable coffee boy sec character to not just be ignored, And unfortunately, human beings, aren't all like that.

5 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

I see this on Secret Club where the baron's already silenced comms for smerds (aka low-born class workers) to prevent them from being able to communicate over the radio network. These people meet in person to discuss how to carry out their plots for good or ill. The distance and the cumbersome nature is irrelevant to people who want to carry out their plans. When an individual is motivated enough to stop a grave threat, they will not care about how difficult or cumbersome the resolution to a situation is. They will drive themselves to resolve it their way or die trying (in-game).

If their game's community is capable of doing this, so are we. The difficulty of accomplishing a task is often irrelevant. The meek will choose not to do anything about it and be pushed aside as background characters. The ones who choose to be active in their involvement of the round will drive the narrative and experience forward and have the most enjoyment from their efforts. The goal of every officer before this change was to protect the station, its assets and its crucial personnel, in that order. The department divisions have perhaps changed up the priorities a little, but each departmental officer has a more relevant task of focusing on the post they are stationed in. They are expected to do whatever they can, even fight, to protect their department and the department's personnel.

Do, or do not. Admission that you can only 'try' to accomplish what you want in a round is akin to admitting that you expect to fail, and merely insisting that others shouldn't be so disappointed when you do. Either be convinced you can succeed when you intend to roleplay on this server or don't try at all.

Or. You could just start with a sec radio/department radio headset. Corporate would consider this. They'd give you that. I don't want to base mechanics on lore but don't nerf them this ridiculously.

[Zundy]

Why not remove sec offices and have a desk, chair, locker +whatever's needed in the departments? 

 

Also give them a sec headset and make them report to HoS at any alert level.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Zundy
Extras