Remove Extended from the Secret pool

[Crozarius]

Or, at least make it much rarer, especially during lowpop rounds.

 

The capability of a round to be extended is always available for vote on round start and often people do vote it in. People generally vote secret when they don't want to play extended, and getting to round end and finding out it was secret extended is getting increasingly disappointing, especially on lower population rounds where extended becomes more likely due to less available roundtypes. People vote secret because we want to see a variety of scenarios with potentially random antagonists to spice up the situation and add flavour and context to our RP interactions. When people vote secret, they don't want to get baited into two extended secret rounds in a row, especially on lowpop where it leaves certain jobs with absolutely nothing to do despite best efforts to interact with others. 

I guess it comes down to: People are generally dissappointed when they vote secret and get extended, and tbh everyone comes to play here because it's fun. Getting secret extended isn't fun for people who voted secret. And hell- if this results in more people voting extended instead of secret due to the possibility of extended being less likely, then so be it, more power to those people, and the game type vote distribution will more accurately reflect the kind of round people want to have.

Also, please, before people reply with: "lmao you don't want to rp on a hrp server" please consider this: RP still occurs on antagonist rounds, and so does canon RP (anything not too involved with an an antagonist). It's disingenuous to argue that no RP happens on antagonist rounds because it absolutely does.

[Ferguson]

agreed, I love Roleplaying Crossfire When I roleplay Shooting security in the face; It's my favourite roleplay and I'd like less of Extended becuase I dont get to shoot people as much and Roleplay being a badass Merc.

[Crozarius]

Just now, Ferguson said:

agreed, I love Roleplaying Crossfire When I roleplay Shooting security in the face; It's my favourite roleplay and I'd like less of Extended becuase I dont get to shoot people as much and Roleplay being a badass Merc.

C'mon. This is a serious suggestion, and I didn't mean to make it some kind of attack on extended or RP. You're being inflammatory and not contributing constructively.

I made this suggestion and I have all antagonists turned off on all my characters. 

C'mon.

[Ferguson]

What game modes would you like to see more of

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Secret is voted with the intent of getting something of interest in the way of antagonists. It's completely separate from the argument for or against RP, or chair RP. When people vote secret, they're saying, "I want a round with an antag, but, I don't know which I want, so. I'll take what comes to me." So when there IS no antagonist, it sucks. And people that like extended, usually don't go in with the mindset of a rested round, so they react differently when it's secret extended. I don't care to hear the position of, "Well you should be acting the same regardless." because, FYI, most people don't have that courtesy, nor that commitment to the standard of RP. And that is fine, because this is a game and the primary function is fun.

So yes, remove extended from secret. It appeases neither the people who want antag driven RP, nor the people who want pure canon RP.

[Crozarius]

1 minute ago, Ferguson said:

What game modes would you like to see more of

 

Secret without Extended. I don't hate Extended, but I prefer other game modes. This isn't about any game mode in particular, it's about Extended vs Secret roundtype selection.

[Ferguson]

But the question begs, what if people feel that Vampire or Rev should be removed from secret

Edited April 4, 2019 by Ferguson

[Crozarius]

2 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

But the question begs, what if people feel that Vampire or Rev should be removed from secret

It doesn't matter because that isn't what this suggestion is about.

[Butterrobber202]

7 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

But the question begs, what if people feel that Vampire or Rev should be removed from secret

Stop using shitty arguments. Going “uuhhhh but what if this, ha gotchu!!1!!” Is a shitty argument and isn’t productive.

 

anyways, ye big agree. The main arugement I’ve seen against is that with extended in the mix it prevents meta gamers. Now this is a crappy arguement because we vote secret the intent is to get a randomly selected antag without knowing from an OOC lone of text what’s going on. Nothing is worse then playing a 2-hour round to discover that it’s extended, and here’s why.

is there subconscious metagame? Yes, and literally nothing can stop that.

The point of extended is for you to be able to sit down and knowing you have 2 hours to develop your character(s). When it is secret you always have this bed of uncertainty that can keep you from really jumping on RP opportunities. The whole “I don’t want to waste the energy to go backstory diving when a McGuffin Traitor could explode me halfway through.”

just a thought, but yeah hella big agree

[Chada1]

7 minutes ago, Butterrobber202 said:

anyways, ye big agree. The main arugement I’ve seen against is that with extended in the mix it prevents meta gamers. Now this is a crappy arguement because we vote secret the intent is to get a randomly selected antag without knowing from an OOC lone of text what’s going on. Nothing is worse then playing a 2-hour round to discover that it’s extended, and here’s why.

is there subconscious metagame? Yes, and literally nothing can stop that.

The point of extended is for you to be able to sit down and knowing you have 2 hours to develop your character(s). When it is secret you always have this bed of uncertainty that can keep you from really jumping on RP opportunities. The whole “I don’t want to waste the energy to go backstory diving when a McGuffin Traitor could explode me halfway through.”

I have some heavy worries about this point, yes it does mean you could be blown up by McGuffin Traitor. Why is that bad? It's not wasting energy, as your conversation is still canon. The only thing that isn't canon is him blowing you up. Secondly, the entire point of Secret is to prevent metagame. By removing Extended, you are then removing all doubt from players mind that there Is an Antag. Currently, that nagging doubt that an Antag might not be in the round acts as a metagame barrier, you don't know an Antag is in the round.

What points do you have against these? Because "Literally nothing can stop that." is not a valid argument, because if that were true we wouldn't have 'Secret', we'd have 'Random'.

[Crozarius]

1 minute ago, Chada1 said:

I have some heavy worries about this point, yes it does mean you could be blown up by McGuffin Traitor. Why is that bad? It's not wasting energy, as your conversation is still canon. The only thing that isn't canon is him blowing you up. Secondly, the entire point of Secret is to prevent metagame. By removing Extended, you are then removing all doubt from players mind that there Is an Antag. Currently, that nagging doubt that an Antag might not be in the round acts as a metagame barrier, you don't know an Antag is in the round.

What points do you have against these? Because "Literally nothing can stop that." is not a valid argument, because if that were true we wouldn't have 'Secret', we'd have 'Random'.

I think you have it the wrong way around: Ideally people should treat every round like extended tbh, but even with extended in the secret loadout people already treat the round like it's guaranteed antagonists. That nagging doubt doesn't really stop anyone from metagaming at all. Besides, having secret people don't know what the antagonist is at all! The people who hate secret and always vote extended do so because they assume that secret is most likely antagonists anyway. They're really the ones metagaming.

[Chada1]

12 minutes ago, Crozarius said:

I think you have it the wrong way around: Ideally people should treat every round like extended tbh, but even with extended in the secret loadout people already treat the round like it's guaranteed antagonists. That nagging doubt doesn't really stop anyone from metagaming at all. Besides, having secret people don't know what the antagonist is at all! The people who hate secret and always vote extended do so because they assume that secret is most likely antagonists anyway. They're really the ones metagaming.

I'm entirely onboard with altering the ratio. My main opposition is in removing it, because then you are also removing all doubt of an Antagonist. I think that nagging doubt does make a large difference, you can see it through voted roundtypes in general, characters act entirely different, intentional or not. If it were 'Random', as I said, and displayed the round, we would be worse off with it, I'm unfortunately very sure of that. This to a lesser extent by removing the doubt of an Antagonist.

But again I'm entirely open to the idea of ratio tweaks to make Extended less common in low pop or in general.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Chada1
Continued on

[Conspiir]

In my eyes, having no antag is just as valid as having an antag. There's always the (high, depending on your job) possibility you will be completely ignored by the (higher chance if it's a solo antag) antag anyway, so what's the use? Just play the game. Talk to your coworkers. Do your job. If something else happens, it happens. Otherwise, enjoy the peace. Secret extended is no different from secret ninja sometimes. And that's alright. Not every round has to be high action. Go with the flow, you know?

 

I sound high. I promise I'm not. I just vote secret always and sometimes secret extended is a pleasant surprise.

 

EDIT: I believe the reason its higher chance in low pop is due to a change in antag number requirements as well as crew number requirements.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Conspiir

[Crozarius]

36 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

I'm entirely onboard with altering the ratio. My main opposition is in removing it, because then you are also removing all doubt of an Antagonist. I think that nagging doubt does make a large difference, you can see it through voted roundtypes in general, characters act entirely different, intentional or not. If it were 'Random', as I said, and displayed the round, we would be worse off with it, I'm unfortunately very sure of that. This to a lesser extent by removing the doubt of an Antagonist.

But again I'm entirely open to the idea of ratio tweaks to make Extended less common in low pop or in general.

You know what-- you're right. I'm behind just changing the occurance. Unfortunately Alb already told me that this will never happen just because, so whatever. In the future I'll know better than to make a suggestion that I think will make the game better.

[Evandorf]

3 hours ago, Crozarius said:

People vote secret because we want to see a variety of scenarios with potentially random antagonists to spice up the situation and add flavour and context to our RP interactions.

I have to -1 this suggestion because I disagree with this premise. I think it's a wide generalization to make that all people vote this way. From my perspective, when I vote secret, I am simply voting for the potential of any round type. Extended is just as valid as merc, vamp, cult, ect. and I don't think it should be relegated to only being available when it's specifically voted for.

[LorenLuke]

I find it interesting that the occurrence of extended in secret is viewed as some sort of waste or annoying or somesuch, but look at what's happening-

You walk into a sandwich shop and tell them 'surprise me'. You become upset by the fact they've given you chicken nuggets in a sandwich shop, paying no nevermind to the fact that you're surprised at such an outcome (and pleased as punch, having got exactly what you asked for), instead of annoyed.

I don't understand why this is so negative, really. Sec patrols the whole time, instead of being "guaranteed" nothing will happen (save for spiders or somesuch). Everyone else goes about their business doing jobs and reacting organically to conflict. People roll with IC conflict to extreme degrees more because they have no certainty that the attack isn't antagonist motivated (versus mashing F1 in an extended round and mentally preparing to watch for a changeling in the voted changeling round).

Secret extended is, in my opinion, the absolute bread and butter of SS13 mayhem in purest form, as people's paranoia become the antagonistic force to drive the round, all while banking on the surety of the presence of some then-absent antagonist. Nothing else can capture that as much as SExtended.

Hard no on removing Secret Extended from me.

[Snakebittenn]

2 hours ago, LorenLuke said:

I find it interesting that the occurrence of extended in secret is viewed as some sort of waste or annoying or somesuch, but look at what's happening-

You walk into a sandwich shop and tell them 'surprise me'. You become upset by the fact they've given you chicken nuggets in a sandwich shop, paying no nevermind to the fact that you're surprised at such an outcome (and pleased as punch, having got exactly what you asked for), instead of annoyed.

I don't understand why this is so negative, really. Sec patrols the whole time, instead of being "guaranteed" nothing will happen (save for spiders or somesuch). Everyone else goes about their business doing jobs and reacting organically to conflict. People roll with IC conflict to extreme degrees more because they have no certainty that the attack isn't antagonist motivated (versus mashing F1 in an extended round and mentally preparing to watch for a changeling in the voted changeling round).

Secret extended is, in my opinion, the absolute bread and butter of SS13 mayhem in purest form, as people's paranoia become the antagonistic force to drive the round, all while banking on the surety of the presence of some then-absent antagonist. Nothing else can capture that as much as SExtended.

Hard no on removing Secret Extended from me.

Sure. Sextended mostly just serves to disappoint, as I have rarely ever seen a sextended round where half the crew did not cryo.

[Carver]

7 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Secret is voted with the intent of getting something of interest in the way of antagonists. It's completely separate from the argument for or against RP, or chair RP. When people vote secret, they're saying, "I want a round with an antag, but, I don't know which I want, so. I'll take what comes to me."

I vote secret typically in hopes of extended and to prevent people from voting in shitty modes like Crossfire, so that would be incorrect to assume everyone shares your reason for voting for it.

[ben10083]

I personally vote extended because I like being not aware of what antag round it is, and overall many people who vote secret do so because do not want extended. I feel we should let the majority speak up by having extended have a smaller ratio of happening, instead of a vocal minority that prefer sextended. (Not that sextended is bad of course, just that most do not vote for secret for that).

+1

Edited April 4, 2019 by ben10083

[VTCobaltblood]

I'm a vast vast vast minority here, but I feel that antagonists detract from roleplay rather than enhance it more often than not for me. So, not in support of this. This would make extended very rare, just like mixed gamemodes that are not in secret, considering that secret is nearly always voted in.

[Evandorf]

10 hours ago, Crozarius said:

You know what-- you're right. I'm behind just changing the occurance. Unfortunately Alb already told me that this will never happen just because, so whatever. In the future I'll know better than to make a suggestion that I think will make the game better.

I appreciate you wanting to improve the game. Don't be disheartened but it might be healthy to set your expectations somewhat.

You're dealing with a diverse group of people who all play the game differently from one another. Try to keep an objective perspective on your suggestion and understand that while it may seem obviously good to you there are inevitably those who will see it as bad simply due to their own perspective on what the game should be. Neither side is inherently right and the outcome should be shaped by input from all sides.

You're also dealing with a decently longstanding community with well entrenched positions. Change to core elements will always be slow but if you truely think they should be changed then I'd encourage you to keep trying.

[StationCrab]

Agreed.