Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[Rosetango]

I'm not really involved in this complaint but I had a question: what about Garn's behavior? Will this also be handled?

[Alberyk]

10 minutes ago, Rosetango said:

I'm not really involved in this complaint but I had a question: what about Garn's behavior? Will this also be handled?

Looking here, it just seems to be banter/joke on ooc. He was not calling anyone out? I don't see much issue with making fun of the situation, or saying salt, because it is not really attacking anyone.

[Resilynn]

Okay, but shouldn’t a headmin be aware the shuttle is held plural times daily?  Even on here, he claims it’s only once or twice a month. Doesn’t he have an obligation to know the rules, and the server culture, his tone aside?

Edited July 1, 2019 by Resilynn

[Seeli]

In this case, it was not going to be held for long and it was not being improperly used, so I am glad there is something coded into it now. I was one of the medical staff and the doors closed when I was 1 square away from them. Had I been able to move faster, I would, but I had just stopped Mutema from actively dying in surgery (finally had access to the ORs again & did not fix his skull, just the stuff that was actively killing him). I ran as fast as my food & water deprived character could run, which wasn't fast (none of medical were fast, we hadn't taken a break since medical was blown up).

edit- should note medical were all dragging someone behind them on beds, so I think that slows us down too.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Seeli

[Alberyk]

15 hours ago, Resilynn said:

Okay, but shouldn’t a headmin be aware the shuttle is held plural times daily?  Even on here, he claims it’s only once or twice a month. Doesn’t he have an obligation to know the rules, and the server culture, his tone aside?

This is really subjective, there are no rules about the shuttle, which ends to being up to the judgment of the admins at the time. And server culture is also really subjective, because I have seen people that never hold the shuttle, while others can wait until 10 minutes.

Anyway, since arrow is working on a code solution, I think this will be better than adding anothe rule, So, people will be able to hold the shuttle until the game forces it itself.

[geeves]

3 hours ago, Alberyk said:

This is really subjective, there are no rules about the shuttle, which ends to being up to the judgment of the admins at the time. And server culture is also really subjective, because I have seen people that never hold the shuttle, while others can wait until 10 minutes.

I don't really think that's the issue Resi meant. Sure, some people will never hold the shuttle, whilst others will hold it carefreely, to claim that it was last used "two months" ago is blatantly false, and you'd have to be pretty out of touch to miss that.

[Alberyk]

On 02/07/2019 at 15:31, geeves said:

I don't really think that's the issue Resi meant. Sure, some people will never hold the shuttle, whilst others will hold it carefreely, to claim that it was last used "two months" ago is blatantly false, and you'd have to be pretty out of touch to miss that.

What do you think of this, @Garnascus

[Garnascus]

I think its an annoying attempt to play a gotcha with me. I reckoned at the time that it had been quite some time since i last saw someone hold the shuttle. I am not particularly married to the specific timeframe so i dont know why geeves thinks its appropriate to try to insult me over it. 

I am glad the coming PR will solve this because i am seriously disturbed at how many players justify and defend holding the shuttle. It is very selfish to do. 

[CommanderXor]

I don't see how holding the shuttle for other players to have the chance to get wounded onboard can be considered selfish, infact waiting for others to get onboard almost seems like the opposite. I'm happy with the PR however, just a little concerned about what sort of precedence making up a rule on the spot and saying 'we can't have every little thing written down' can cause.

[Contextual]

Two things I'd like to pitch into this.

1. I personally have been involved in holding the shuttle at least 4 times in the past week or two. Once was due to engineering difficulties(read:breached red dock), two were for medical emergencies, the last was for mass prisoner transport-to-shuttle on the tail end of a rev round. 

If you want to call enabling a satisfying, all-encompassing conclusion to the round for an entire department and their charges at a time, at the expense of a handful of minutes spent mostly bantering in (L)OOC anyways, selfish, then I don't know what to tell you. Enabling satisfying roleplay is literally the cornerstone of any command position, and swearing by this is the biggest requirement for that whitelist.

I would argue that forcing a shuttle/allowing it to time out when you have medical/security/(X) amount of stragglers hollering for it to be held is the selfish decision, effectively denying them their satisfying conclusion just so you can end the round and get your greentext a little bit sooner.

2. On the subject of rules: Now that Suspicious Conduct has been stricken from the book of Corporate Regulations, is it appropriate for Security to continue to use it to brig people? After all, we can't expect every little thing to be written down. Some regulations are just more niche and nuanced, right?

That gut reaction you just felt is the same way most people have and would feel seeing Garn say that he's enforcing a rule that is not and has never been written anywhere. Should it be a rule? That's a different question. Regardless, if it is going to be enforced, punishment or no punishment, it should be written somewhere. Even if it's just a friendly warning that admins reserve the right to force held shuttles at any time.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Contextual

[geeves]

3 hours ago, Garnascus said:

I think its an annoying attempt to play a gotcha with me.

I think this is an annoying attempt to shift blame, as you've done throughout this entire complaint.

3 hours ago, Garnascus said:

I reckoned at the time that it had been quite some time since i last saw someone hold the shuttle.

You're a headmin. Don't throw your authorative weight around until you're certain about something.

3 hours ago, Garnascus said:

i dont know why geeves thinks its appropriate to try to insult me over it.

Excuse me? What? I want you to explain this to me. Are you trying to invalidate an argument by reducing it down to "an insult", so you don't have to address it?

3 hours ago, Garnascus said:

It is very selfish to do. 

Going, "I am the law!" as you usually do, and then calling people salty when they have a reason to be upset, is incredibly selfish.

[Garnascus]

35 minutes ago, geeves said:

You're a headmin. Don't throw your authorative weight around until you're certain about something.

I assure you i am 100% sure that holding the shuttle is indefensible. 

36 minutes ago, geeves said:

Excuse me? What? I want you to explain this to me. Are you trying to invalidate an argument by reducing it down to "an insult", so you don't have to address it?

Stop playing 4D chess. I am not trying to invalidate your argument with some weird tactic. I am saying its not the point. How long or how often people do this thing is not relevant to whether its ok or not. That is what i am more interested in.

37 minutes ago, geeves said:

Going, "I am the law!" as you usually do, and then calling people salty when they have a reason to be upset, is incredibly selfish.

1. a TEN MINUTE countdown starts as the shuttle makes its way from the odin to the aurora.

2. Once the shuttle docks you have THREE more minutes until the shuttle departs. 

You have thirteen minutes to wrap up what you are doing, finish stabilizing medical patients or at the very least make some sort of pressurized hallway to escape if someone has bombed it. This is plenty of time in nearly all instances. If you delay the shuttle for any reason you are holding up the round restarting for anywhere between 20 to 60 people. That is not ok. If you have for example such a pile up of wounded individuals in medical that 13 minutes is not enough time then either two things happen. One it becomes commands responsibility to attempt to communicate on the status of departments beforehand OR you just remain behind and tend to the wounded. The odin is not a magical healing zone. You're literally better equipped to treat people on the aurora. 

Thats it. The coming PR will solve this. You guys will get an extra two minutes and then shuttle will force itself. 

[geeves]

20 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

I assure you i am 100% sure that holding the shuttle is indefensible.

I was referring to the two months comment, as you should do research before throwing things out wildly, or, at the very least, apologize when you realize you messed up. To this specifically: This is fair, opinions are opinions and I respect them.

21 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Stop playing 4D chess. I am not trying to invalidate your argument with some weird tactic. I am saying its not the point. How long or how often people do this thing is not relevant to whether its ok or not. That is what i am more interested in.

Not being knowledgeable of what happens on-server is the crux of the complaint. Why did you call it an insult when it clearly wasn't an insult? I bear no ill will to the person, only to the capacity as a staff member in a high ranking position.

24 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

1. a TEN MINUTE countdown starts as the shuttle makes its way from the odin to the aurora.

2. Once the shuttle docks you have THREE more minutes until the shuttle departs. 

You have thirteen minutes to wrap up what you are doing, finish stabilizing medical patients or at the very least make some sort of pressurized hallway to escape if someone has bombed it. This is plenty of time in nearly all instances. If you delay the shuttle for any reason you are holding up the round restarting for anywhere between 20 to 60 people. That is not ok. If you have for example such a pile up of wounded individuals in medical that 13 minutes is not enough time then either two things happen. One it becomes commands responsibility to attempt to communicate on the status of departments beforehand OR you just remain behind and tend to the wounded. The odin is not a magical healing zone. You're literally better equipped to treat people on the aurora. 

Thats it. The coming PR will solve this. You guys will get an extra two minutes and then shuttle will force itself. 

This is all fair, and I am in agreement with most of it, but oftentimes what makes sense on paper doesn't stand a chance when shit hits the fan in-game, the PR that is up solves the 'issue'. It still doesn't even come close to touching on my point however, which was: Going, "I am the law!" as you usually do, and then calling people salty when they have a reason to be upset, is incredibly selfish. Please expand upon this when you find the time to do so.

There are better way to solve problems than to force it down the players' throats. Bwoinking the command team and asking them to please not hold the shuttle is fine (to an extent). Command players are whitelisted players of the community who have proven their mettle. Taking agency away from them is shooting your most invested players in the foot.

[Garnascus]

18 hours ago, geeves said:

was referring to the two months comment, as you should do research before throwing things out wildly

It is not at all relevant to the issue. You're trying to argue over minor details. 

19 hours ago, geeves said:

I bear no ill will to the person, only to the capacity as a staff member in a high ranking position.

uhhh..?

19 hours ago, geeves said:

There are better way to solve problems than to force it down the players' throats.

I clicked the force shuttle button and announced not to do it in an announcement. In what world does a rational human being equate that to "forcing it down player's throats".

19 hours ago, geeves said:

Going, "I am the law!" as you usually do, and then calling people salty when they have a reason to be upset, is incredibly selfish

I made a decision about behavior that i find problematic. I have defended here why that behavior is problematic. I am vested with the power and authority to decide both of those things. I am sure it works for you to frame this as the big bad admin taking away the player's agency but.... thats just not what happened here. None of these arguments presented in favor of it are good ones. 

[geeves]

4 hours ago, Garnascus said:

It is not at all relevant to the issue. You're trying to argue over minor details.

OK. Sure, I think it's very relevant. The issue stems from misinformation from your part.

 

 

4 hours ago, Garnascus said:

uhhh..?

 

On 06/07/2019 at 08:37, Garnascus said:

i dont know why geeves thinks its appropriate to try to insult me over it.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..?

 

 

4 hours ago, Garnascus said:

I clicked the force shuttle button and announced not to do it in an announcement. In what world does a rational human being equate that to "forcing it down player's throats".

Yes. Downplaying what it is, doesn't make it what it isn't.

 

 

4 hours ago, Garnascus said:

I made a decision about behavior that i find problematic. I have defended here why that behavior is problematic. I am vested with the power and authority to decide both of those things.

Very well, that is within your authority. It was still wrong to do, however.

 

 

4 hours ago, Garnascus said:

 I am sure it works for you to frame this as the big bad admin taking away the player's agency but....

No. I see it as an out of touch Headmin doing what he thinks is right, despite it flying in the face of every precedent set to this day. Stop putting words into my mouth to try and make me the bad guy and I will extend the same courtesy to you. Thank you.

 

 

5 hours ago, Garnascus said:

None of these arguments presented in favor of it are good ones. 

That is personal opinion. Sadly, the issue of holding a shuttle is not a black and white matter, and should not be treated as such. If there is a reason to hold it, hold it. If there isn't a reason to hold it, don't hold it. There is no "ideal" outcome, because it has to be handled in a case-by-case manner. In this case, you handled it in a horrible manner.

[Garnascus]

Welp, I am afraid i still disagree and anymore discussion will just be us going in circles. 

[ReadThisNamePlz]

Hey there, I'd like to throw my two cents in on this complaint. 

I don't believe Garn is really in the wrong here, a shuttle is only to be held under certain circumstances. Perhaps he could have warned the players he was going to launch it, but he is well within the right for launching it. And, as Alb said, we, as Admins, have the ability/authority to decide when it's being held too long and when it should be launched. 

Regarding Garn's behavior, he hasn't been rude, toxic, salty, or a general ass at all in this thread. He's simply defending himself, as a player, not as a headmin. For those of you who are attempting to use his rank as a gold ticket to dogpile. He's a player, like all of us, and he is human, like most of us. (We all know Alb is Skulls personal AI). 
Garn will make mistakes, we all do. I've made my fair share. 

Garn is right though, this complaint will continue to circle and go nowhere. I don't think he's broken any rules here, perhaps he jumped the gun when he forced the shuttle, but he certainly broke no actual rules.

Thanks for reading, cya!

[Coalf]

Hello old admin here, yes we've always had the right to push shuttle whenever required. I've done it in the past to force a shuttle when a HoP kept delaying it to get more corgis on the board.
Frankly, it falls under the same rule as an antag recalling a CC shuttle, an unneeded prolonging of a round that is essentially over.
Yes, it's unfriendly to IC and RP but I've seen it work more times successfully than unsuccessfully.

 

Quote

"as Admins, have the ability/authority to decide when it's being held too long and when it should be launched. "
"He's simply defending himself, as a player, not as a headmin. For those of you who are attempting to use his rank as a gold ticket to dogpile."

 

This is under staff complaints, not player complaints. He isn't defending himself as a player.

[Alberyk]

As I said, there was nothing really clear on the shuttle being held, which did end in the admins deciding if having people hold it or not was worth, and this is being fixed by the pr that sets a time limit on how long the shuttle can be held. I think that forcing the shuttle in those cases would only be a bad deal if it was made with the intent of screwing over the crew, which does not seems to be the case here.

 

But, anyway, while this change is not added, I will tell staff to wait at least around three minutes before forcing the shuttle. However, @Garnascus, while I understand the reasons why you forced it, I am going to ask for you to take more in consideration what people do out of tradition/culture in the server, unless it is in the conflict with the rules.

[PoZe]

On 01/07/2019 at 05:20, geeves said:

ok, then ask us to remove it, shouldn't be too difficult

Arrow already has PR for that

[Alberyk]

Alright, I believe this has been solved then.

I will lock this in around 24 hours if no one adds anything else.