Make Dying a Thing Again

[Butterrobber202]

Overwhelming support for this. I've been thinking about this for months now, and simply just thought "but everyone would disagree." so I didn't make a post.

 

If I get shot in the head, without anything equipped, I should be dead right there. 

Why tf can I survive in a vacuum unprotected for even 10 seconds? I should be dead right there. 

If someone stabs me in the gut and my organs are spilling out, I should be dead right there.

 

You ever wonder why antags are so bad? Its because all their weapons don't deal the devastating amount of damage they should. There is no threat of an villain whose tools don't work.

[sonicgotnuked]

I've seen constant nerfs on both security and antags. The ling arm blade just does blunt damage where before you could actually cut a head off with it. I've spent other traitor rounds spamming a e-sword on someone's head and it never came off. Sharpness was removed from these weapons.

 

Dying can be lame, but I don't see the issue with spending 20 or so minutes to respawn. You can also play mouse and drone during this time. Perhaps we could add other ghost roles. The way I see it: how does TG make dying somewhat enjoyable? They add ghost roles that pop up. Instead of just making everyone iron skinned, we should implement stuff that makes people what they truly are: weak fleshy sacks of blood. Month by month, changes have progressed that removes limb gibbing. It removes head gibbing. I find it actually pretty hilarious that the most effective thing you can do to fight someone in general with melee is by aiming at their feet or hands so any guns they hold are useless. Why did we make bullets due stuns other then internal bleeding? Perhaps give antags medical abilities as well to splint a bone or stop internal bleeding if they get themselves isolated and manage to not pass out. I remember when I blew a fuel tank that was somewhat off the screen and the blast gave me internal bleeding just by the shrapnel and I passed out and died 10 minutes later. Explosions should be damaging and rip you apart. 

 

I remember rounds which I enjoyed that involved a shotgun blowing my head off. What happened to this? If you're unarmoured and blindly rush into an area alone to shoot McBaldAntag and pops out and blows your brains out, you should be dead. 

I also one time put a grenade in someones chest and later blew it up and they still survived despite opening up the turf to astroid turf bellow. It has more power on the ground then against the person standing above it. We should tweak explosions that instead of gibbing, they will destroy limbs and have a chance to rip off your head. It's a lot better to find a mangled corpse that bled out in under a minute then to find a pile of clothes and some organs laying around.

I remember before the revolver nerf when I shot up the bartender. It added a lot more interaction when he was a mangled corpse missing an arm and leg then just wheel to medical and be fine after 10 minutes of treatment.

In general, what games do that involve dire consequences when you die, they give you a chance to learn. "Oh, that's how my base was raided in rust." There are countless games that punish you. Games that erase your entire character after you've spent 10 hours farming gear for. We should stop jumping on every nerf because of salt. We should stop freaking out and mashing the ahelp when a round has interaction and you died because you've decided to try and chase the ninja down with a fire extinguisher. Not all antags are shit when it comes to killing and we should have something that makes antags less paranoid to actually kill people.

We also need to get rid of the silly 'killing is bad mentality'. Yes, I've been pretty guilty of this, but it's something that needs to be gone. Killing should be a tool to drive fear of death.

 

Hell, if the round is nearly two hours in, who the hell cares if you die. It'll end.

Edited October 5, 2019 by sonicgotnuked

[Rushodan]

Killing can be important to drive a round, it should be easy, but dying should also be easy as well.

People moan at security players for charging with a baton and demanding batons to be nerfed, but why is that even a thing? If I am a merc with an AR and I fire a few rounds into someone they should be stopped in their tracks. Firefights should be fast paced and dangerous - not "well I can take a good number of shots before running off for magic healing juice."

I had a round, recently where a warden was lying on a bed with multiple gunshot wounds. They had murdered my tator partner so it was going to be part of the round where I manage to get our revenge for that person and continue escalating (trying to frame the AI for a person nearly dying earlier in the round). I typed out putting my shotgun against his head and pulling the trigger...two slugs to the head later and he pops up, one tap disarmed me and then shot me in the hand...causing me to drop my other tools. After executing me on the ground the warden gets spammed with meds and has no chance in dying.

It was very frustrating and completely shattered any kind of immersion present. A few things needs to happen imo:

- Medication needs to be less powerful - either needing more to achieve something or/and making it act far slower.
 - Some things require surgery as a default. Overdosing bicard to fix internal bleeding just feels a bit too easy. Splinting should render that arm/leg unusable (but stops the bone from jostling around, so stabilizes for movement
- Shrapnel should cause infections / toxins over time so it cannot be ignored. Perhaps in IPCs shrapnel causes sparking (falling over / dropping something).
- Getting shot in the head or torso without protection should make you drop from pain. Armor would negate this to some extend to prevent mercs/sec from getting dabbed on by one guy with a gun. Painkillers could negate this to some effect.
- Food shouldn't help you regain blood. At least not enough to make you negate the effects of severe blood loss. Healing ten percent over like, thirty minutes? Sure.

Currently gunfights feel as if they don't really have consequences and I rarely die, even when on the 'frontlines' so to speak. I know as soon as I see that crit message I can run away and get help with very little consequences.

Just my two cents - but I always enjoyed a harder experience.

Edited October 5, 2019 by SHODAN
Minor edits

[Carver]

3 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

You ever wonder why antags are so bad? Its because all their weapons don't deal the devastating amount of damage they should. There is no threat of an villain whose tools don't work.

No, it's mainly because they're not very good at playing the game. You shouldn't be relying on tools so heavily, as it doesn't exactly take effortlessly strong weapons to kill anyone if you know what you're doing.

I'm only for lethality, as I said, if it goes both ways. I want to see the antag who eats a shotgun slug to the head dead in seconds. I want to see the wizard's arm burnt off when the Captain lasers it with an energy pistol. I want a crowbar to the head of that vampire to cave in their skull. If it isn't done evenly, expect a lot more ERT calls to end your masturbatory murderbone fiesta.

[Nantei]

A lot of these anecdotes of, "I shot Baldy McBaldFace six times and they were fine." aren't very persuasive. There's way too many factors in 13, and people often exaggerate a lot in those scenarios. Sometimes you just get lucky.

 

Now, as someone who generally does not have much trouble at all killing people when they want to, I'd like to outline some numbers. The Detectives' revolver does 20 damage per shot. Assuming you aim for the head, which does about 20% more damage I believe, you're doing 25 damage a shot. This will paincrit someone after three hits. This will hardcrit someone if you hit all six, and kill them pretty shortly after. The Detectives' revolver is ironically very weak for a ballistic weapon, and it still does this well.

Let's look at a decisively better weapon: The Traitor Revolver. It does 45 damage a shot. There's a reason this thing used to gib limbs, because it used to be even higher. This is almost double what a bullpup rifle does, and it will paincrit you in two shots even with a vest (Unless you get very lucky on your absorb roll). The laser rifle does a whopping 35 damage with 15 armor penetration, drops you in two to three hits easily. Most of the weapons traitors and Security will have are pretty damn good at killing people in a vacuum. The reason this doesn't always work this way is numerous. One of the larger reasons guns fail is people don't know how to shoot. Like, actually. Moving while shooting, trying to click moving sprites while using a ranged weapon, etc. 

The other reason is armor. Armor is quite literally what allows you to get lucky and survive things you normally wouldn't. Because armor can fully absorb the damage. So sometimes you do just get lucky and you manage to roll that 15% chance twice in a row. Weaponry, chemistry, these aren't the problem if you want more death. Policy is. As an antagonist, most of my kills are unintentional. Because it feels, as an antagonist, that you should almost never kill someone. Almost every time I have killed someone, intentionally or not, I have to explain it to staff. I almost never actually get in trouble for this, but it's emotionally tiring and leads to a feeling of constant scrutiny/persecution, plus damages the flow of the round for you. So people naturally avoid it, and thus hold back from killing. 

TL;DR: Weapons as they are are pretty damn deadly, armor and unoptimal usage are what make them not. If you want more death, encourage a policy shift that favors a longer leash for antagonists. I personally like things as they are, but if you have an issue with it, I find this far more likely to make me engage in more killing than adjusting the numbers. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Nantei

[wowzewow]

Still dumb that you can welderbomb yourself point blank and still come out mildly bruised.

[Nantei]

5 hours ago, wowzewow said:

Still dumb that you can welderbomb yourself point blank and still come out mildly bruised.

You can also be gibbed and turn the room into a crater. Which yes, I have seen happen. I wouldn't be shocked if that is the exact reason why we got the warning prompt.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Nantei

[MattAtlas]

As I see it, there are a few issues:

1) Killing someone with armour is way too hard due to how armour works. I have a solution for this: armour should be based on percentage and be always reliable in reducing damage by a % calculated from the armor values. Instead what we have right now is a system where you can roll a fullblock and take no damage from a 5.56 shot in the dick if you have an armored trenchcoat.

2) Killing hostages or civilians takes too much time. As nantei said, you'll need six .38 bullets to actually kill someone you're holding in a neck grab if you shoot them in the brain case. Maybe four with pointblank bonuses. Still, that's way too much time and sec can just ooga booga rush you. This goes for 7.62, 5.62, and other calibers that aren't very heavy.

3) Burst shooting sucks absolute dick since it grounds you. Because of this, we get fights where there are only singular shots being thrown around. This diminishes lethality because people shoot you less. ARs are basically only single shot weapons right now.

4) Not enough lethality on the medical side. Someone without a helmet got shot in the head with 7.62? Bicaridine and outta the meat grinder you go. Not sure I need to highlight how this is an issue.

[Sheeplets]

It would be nice to see testmerge rounds with damage and halloss/pain values turned up. It's lame having to rest and s-s-st-utt-er beause the game decides your eight gunshots don't hurt enough on their own.

[Nantei]

5 hours ago, Datamatt said:

2) Killing hostages or civilians takes too much time. As nantei said, you'll need six .38 bullets to actually kill someone you're holding in a neck grab if you shoot them in the brain case. Maybe four with pointblank bonuses. Still, that's way too much time and sec can just ooga booga rush you. This goes for 7.62, 5.62, and other calibers that aren't very heavy.

The .38 is pretty notoriously weak, so it's not a great example of a weapon taking too much time. Like I said, the traitor revolver headshotting will cause you to enter hardcrit in two shots. Even ignoring point blank bonuses if we have any. On the third shot you will have maybe ten seconds to live. I generally don't like killing hostages as I said further up, but the solution to this would just be to A. Buff throat slitting to cause a lot of brute and bleed. B. Add an action for aggressive grab guns similar to throat slitting that multiplies the damage heavily and adds armor penetration. 

 

Honestly, TGMC has a pure percentage system, and while that works better for pure combat, I prefer our system for Aurora. But that's just my opinion.

[MattAtlas]

10 minutes ago, Nantei said:

The .38 is pretty notoriously weak, so it's not a great example of a weapon taking too much time. Like I said, the traitor revolver headshotting will cause you to enter hardcrit in two shots. Even ignoring point blank bonuses if we have any. On the third shot you will have maybe ten seconds to live. I generally don't like killing hostages as I said further up, but the solution to this would just be to A. Buff throat slitting to cause a lot of brute and bleed. B. Add an action for aggressive grab guns similar to throat slitting that multiplies the damage heavily and adds armor penetration. 

 

Honestly, TGMC has a pure percentage system, and while that works better for pure combat, I prefer our system for Aurora. But that's just my opinion.

There are exactly two weapons that antags spawn with or can get that do significantly more damage: the esword and revolver.

[BRAINOS]

the fact it takes more than one shot at all, to the head (especially point blank) is fucked.

i get that people don't want to die in this game, but surviving a bullet to the head of ANY caliber is an extremely rare thing to happen. .38's are NOT pea shooters, but in-game suddenly they're a whatever kinda deal.

guns are lethal as hell and our characters should fear them and we should fear what they can do to our characters.

any bullet wound should have a high chance to cause internal and external bleeding and getting shot in the head should immediately drop you - even if you survive, you'd be lucky to crawl.

i also think we should add a chance for bullets hitting walls to ricochet because projectile weapons on a space station are a bad fucking idea.

i get it. nobody wants to die in this game but we shouldn't nerf guns to the point they are right now. we need to collectively get over it and accept death as a part of the game, especially in the case of being shot.

it's frustrating to die but nothing frustrastes me more than having my immersion broken by surviving impossible things because i know a hundred people have broken their F1 key over getting shot before.

[JMJ_99]

I agree fully with Brainos, Ballistics and weapons in general should do proper realistic damage and should feel like getting shot isn't going to end well for you. Conversely we are a sci-fi setting, we have leeway to add whatever we want within reason to deal with the fact that getting shot to the head now kills you.

Edited October 8, 2019 by JMJ_99

[TrickingTrapster]

There is such a thing as too much realism imo. Sure, six bullets to the head to kill someone is stupid, but when a stray bullet kills you from the other side of the hallway because it scamped your hair is dumb too. At the end of the run this is still a game, that people want to PLAY. Not sit around doing nothing after getting killed. The killing is bad mentality exists because people actually care about the person behind the other character. Aurora should be trying to be fun for everyone, not just the players that like using guns.

[Seeli]

One thing that people seem to have forgotten here is that when you're in pain crit, unconscious on the ground, there is no RP. You can't hear anything, can see very little, you're a motionless interactionless pre-corpse. It is actually worse than being dead, because sometimes it can last just as long as respawn would and you do even less in that time than a ghost.

I am all for throat slitting hostages to punish failed negotiations, or a headshot AT POINT BLANK being very bad news. But increasing Halos to put people into crit more often? No thank you. Please, no thank you.

That miner whose corpse was thrown at the elevator where cargo was fleeing? That was Bo Hynes and I loved that round, I loved the ninja and other antags, and the ERT who saved him in the end. They were great. But pain crit meant that Bo kept losing consciousness before he could confess, it interrupted our rp over and over, so the ninja had no choice but to execute the very tortured Bo and throw his body at cargo. Great thing about that was that Bo was cloned and immediately kidnapped by the borgs to be tortured all over again. So yay cloning! ❤️(Please don't remove cloning too)

I would much rather be conscious and RP pain, RP getting shot or even RP being unconscious.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Seeli
added conclusion I forgot