Remov dionaea, IPCs and golems from being valid cultists

[Scheveningen]

Dionaea and golems -- plus IPCs by extension, mutate the cult game mode into something really ugly.

In the case of dionaea and golems, they are practically given absurd amounts of staying power as cultists given their absurd existing immunities to pain and various other circumstances. This last round I played as of this post, a diona cultist spawned 4 manifested ghosts (apparitions) without any real cost to themselves. Seeing as how they do not really need to stand on a rune for this to work, and it costs them nothing to do this, they can effectively spawn 4-5 of them and rush security down with no-pain feeling mannequins that have cult armor, which is heavily resistant against security's baseline arsenal. It takes an inordinate amount of time to kill them as well. To contrast, a human being can't do this without losing all their blood immediately. Same principle applies for golems which also do not feel pain or have blood, so presumably they can do this too. Xenobio cultist is pretty unfair as well.

Golems are enslaved to the person that summons them anyway, ain't that enough?

As to the matter of IPCs their situation is radically different. Instead, IPCs are massively disadvantaged due to not having automatic self-healing mechanics and all it takes is a damaged leg to be stunlocked. Instead this is a matter of principle and reason, if the dionaea and golems cannot be cultists for one IC reason or another, if it applies also for the IPCs they should have it removed too, otherwise it makes no consistent sense. In the case of IPCs I propose that instead that we add back the feature that turns them into constructs instead for conversion.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Scheveningen

[Carver]

This makes more sense than the tree nerf thread. Sure, why not.

[Hepatica]

+1. Literally all my +1s. Anyone who has seen the ghost spam these two are able to put out will agree. I've been a Golem cultist. I had the ability to spam out ghosts before, but chose not too because, lets face it, that's not fun. At all. But we all know others will not hold back similarly if given the chance. I think ghosts are a valid option to help cult be a stronger force to be reckoned with, but they in turn make cult unstoppable with a Diona or the very rare times they get a Golem. Golems don't even have blood, man!

[Wigglesworth Jones]

I also support this. Diona cultists are unfun for reasons I stated on the other thread.

[Hesphos]

I guess allow them to still be culters, but without the ability to spawn overpowerd stuff guess.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Hesphos

[Chada1]

I posted in support of a kinda sorta mindshield implant thingo for Dionae that blocked them from being most Antagonists, but explicitly leave them capable of being dominated by Vampires or able to join the Revolution factions, we need those options to exist for gameplay reasons IMO. 

[canon35]

I feel that cult conversion should have different effects per species. 

IPCs could become some form of construct and be unable to use runes, only abilities it spawns with. 
Diona could have only one nymph converted, the gestalt would split and mass burn besides the one. 
Golems, well. Perhaps just a flavor message saying your mind is too dumb/strong/already claimed by another entity and thus you cannot be converted? 

 

[Kintsugi]

+1 - not much to say beyond "They're a massive pain in the ass to deal with"

Edited May 27, 2020 by DanseMacabre

[Snakebittenn]

I feel we should bar them from all antags except for rev/loy, yes.

[Scheveningen]

Outside of scope, I only view dionaea and golems as problematic during cult as they generate numbers out of thin air and it is bullshit. I have no issue with them one on one.

[GreenBoi]

I don't agree on this with the golem aspect because you need a Xenobiologist for that or someone who knows it- this is already pretty hard to achieve, especially if you don't have a person with science access. I see golems as a non-issue, they take time to get to and if you don't have a xenobiologist- that could be half an hour wasted on trying to get adamantine slimes for the chance that ghosts maybe want to play golems.

 

Currently no set opinion on dionae.

[niennab]

The issue I take from this is that by barring them from these antag roles, antags have little reason to interact or engage with said races other than to straight up no rp murder-bone them. Keeping in mind that IPCs are already barred from ling and vampire, I'd propose instead just changing the nature as to how a cultist IPC works instead of removing it outright. The same thought applies to Diona.

[Yonnimer]

I do want to add something to nerf dionae cultists as I do agree they are way too stronk right now, although outright disallowing them i'm against. It means cultists have to kill or construct dionae, no converting. I'd rather not have a repeat of all the shit that happend when IPCs were disallowed.

[DronzTheWolf]

I say that we make it so that beings without blood- That being Dionae, IPCs, and Golems, cannot use blood magic. They can join cult to bolster numbers, use the weapons and talisman, but they can't use any proper magic. No runes. 

[Cnaym]

Quote

Dionaea and golems -- plus IPCs by extension, mutate the cult game mode into something really ugly.

I don't think you need to have a specific whitelist to ruin a cult, just spam the same constructs from a tunnel as everyone else does. Play to win as antag and you will win, it's that easy. Seen it a lot with medical or even hydroponics.

As long as breaking rules as antag is allowed people will just jump to the next mechanic to abuse.

[Scheveningen]

4 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

I don't think you need to have a specific whitelist to ruin a cult, just spam the same constructs from a tunnel as everyone else does.

You can't, you lose blood and die if you try to do what dionaea and golems can do in terms of raising manifested ghosts. Dionaea suffer zero consequence for doing this.

[Cnaym]

3 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

You can't, you lose blood and die if you try to do what dionaea and golems can do in terms of raising manifested ghosts.

I said you can spam the same, maybe not four at once, but we have had a lot of construct spam lately. That is why I took medical as example, they even get the blood bags and painkillers to ride along.

Nerfing the diona, good. Making them equal or at least closely balanced to the other cultist, even better. Removing them is rather meh imho. I liked the idea that they could not do blood magic, maybe make it so they can only do it with someone elses blood -> Bloodbag or living body on rune.

[Yonnimer]

1 hour ago, DronzTheWolf said:

I say that we make it so that beings without blood- That being Dionae, IPCs, and Golems, cannot use blood magic. They can join cult to bolster numbers, use the weapons and talisman, but they can't use any proper magic. No runes. 

I'd be fine with this for Dionae. Fairly certain IPCs used to have the same restriction before the rune update.

[GreenBoi]

5 minutes ago, Yonnimer said:

 Fairly certain IPCs used to have the same restriction before the rune update.

They did, and it was reverted because IPCs couldn't do anything useful because cults need to make runes to work- they didn't even get special abilities like constructs.

 

Honestly imo, IPC cultists should be able to "warp" into a Narsian construct once converted. They will shed their man-made frame and turn into a Juggernaut/Wraith/Artificer when they choose to.

[Scheveningen]

44 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

I said you can spam the same, maybe not four at once, but we have had a lot of construct spam lately. That is why I took medical as example, they even get the blood bags and painkillers to ride along.

Nerfing the diona, good. Making them equal or at least closely balanced to the other cultist, even better. Removing them is rather meh imho. I liked the idea that they could not do blood magic, maybe make it so they can only do it with someone elses blood -> Bloodbag or living body on rune.

Construct spam isn't the issue here. Constructs require a dead body to convert into a killing machine. It requires some measure of effort to kill, soul-stone them, and then put them into a construct frame. Risen ghosts require a single click and then they're off to do shit.

Further, the only way to sensibly nerf diona is to remove their ability to ignore consequences as a cultist by removing their ability to use cult magic, which requires blood. The same deal applies for golems and IPCs, but it is an inverse case because an IPC cultist is literally the worst antagonist experience in the entire game.

A suggestion that was already posted was to make cult converted IPCs/diona still allied to the cult, which is fine. Snowflake stuff that makes them cultified requires more effort and time, but would also not only fix the issue but give back what was initially taken, as well as adding more to the game.

Ultimately, diona cultists being able to photocopy risen ghosts with no consequence is not a status quo that should be allowed to stay.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Scheveningen

[Carver]

3 hours ago, GreenBoi said:

They did, and it was reverted because IPCs couldn't do anything useful because cults need to make runes to work- they didn't even get special abilities like constructs.

 

Honestly imo, IPC cultists should be able to "warp" into a Narsian construct once converted. They will shed their man-made frame and turn into a Juggernaut/Wraith/Artificer when they choose to.

I like this idea, makes more sense to have them corrupted into something akin to how Nar-Sie corrupts machinery he goes over.

[Zundy]

Yeah I like that. Have IPCs be warped into Nar'Sian constructs and have Dionae be mutated into some monstrosity (that isn't so OP :^) )