Vision Cones [Feedback]

[Myazaki]

6 hours ago, StationCrab said:

This may be unrelated to your PR but there seems to be a unique issue with borgs that cause their speech bubble to get stuck on permanently, this might make it so sneaking is impossible for them.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

[cheap31]

Hey, dropping in again. I've really enjoyed where the vision cones have gone since the first test merges.

I just wanted to say thanks for listening to all of this feedback you've been getting and also dealing with the people that have been bitching about them thus far.

I really like that we now have our little movement markers and I have not had any problems with text bubbles not appearing. Those are a very excellent and I think necessary touch that you've hit right on the head because neither are obstructive and help facilitate roleplay much better than when we first started merging.

Also, I have personally been able to use the mechanics in creative ways that don't just cater to antags, even going so far as to use them against antags.

The only problem I see now, lies with unfortunate bugs like permanent text bubbles. But that's not really related to the pull and is more of an unfortunate happenstance.

[Faris]

I read through the thread to make sure I don't post any duplicate feedback, which after checking shows that it's already been posted. I'll just label some of the issues to show I'm not the only one with them.

1- Disorienting gameplay due to how environment shifts. 

2- Walking and pulling someone being confusing and require constant checks.

I believe both have already been mechanically addressed already.

With that out of the way. I just want to thank @Myazaki for all their hardwork and active communication with the community. 

[ImmortalRedshirt]

Well, between my last post and now, I've gone on a few adventures. Recently, I managed to join a little server called IS12 for a round. While I do love the gameplay, interface, and aesthetics there, that's not what I'm talking about. Instead, I'd like to point out that yes, that server does use a vision cone system, and it works well. The default alpha level of the cones there works very well with the darker aesthetic and when someone moves outside of your vision, there is an expanding circle "soundwave."

Maybe it was the lack of polish when I tried it out here, or maybe it's the fact that vision cones work best when paired with an interface like IS12's(where it's a solid block surrounding the bottom and right sides of the game view, instead of buttons disconnected from each other), but I've decided that I don't particularly mind a well-implemented vision cone system.

[Myazaki]

On 15/08/2020 at 06:59, StationCrab said:

This may be unrelated to your PR but there seems to be a unique issue with borgs that cause their speech bubble to get stuck on permanently, this might make it so sneaking is impossible for them.

This is unrelated to my PR , but I'll look at fixing that sometime soon.

 

I've implemented a change to the Face Direction verb, so clicking will allow you to change your direction while Face Direction mode is on -- Moving with movement keys will work the same as it currently does.

[Estutes]

First of all. I haven't read the thdread but since It was implemented today I think it's new:

This new cone implemented today was not liked by any of the people that I've asked. To the point of one going to cryo and saying won't play until this changes since he/she thinks this renders the game unplayable for he/her.

I personally don't feel like playing a third person game would make sense to have a cone of vision unless it was a stealth game which is not. This game requires a lot of pixel hunting, and with this new mechanic it becomes a headache to play.

Any questions or considerations please tell me. This is my first post, sorry If I did commit a mistake.

[TrainTN]

I do not think vision cones are a good fit for a 2D isometric multiplayer video game. I've played other games with this viewpoint that really loved their realism, like Cataclysm and Dwarf Fortress, and they don't use vision cones because what do you really gain from it? What's the point of giving the player a top-down view then slicing away a huge chunk of it that flips around everywhere just by walking around? Limiting the player's vision to this degree just feels more aggravating than engaging. Darkwood is a top-down game that does it but that's a horror game, and horror games are all about taking comforts away from the player to keep them on edge. SS13 isn't a horror game. Playing with a filter covering 1/4 of my screen that disappears everyone behind me doesn't feel like it adds to my experience. It doesn't create any immersion for me, and it doesn't make the game feel more realistic because the idea of not being able to tell someone is standing behind me breathing on my neck is silly. As others in the thread have said, we a lot of senses that do a lot of subtle work to tell us about our surroundings all the time, I don't actually see much realism in being completely blind to what's behind me just because one of my senses isn't focused on it. Having to constantly click my character around just to look at things and follow sequences of actions is not enjoyable, especially in a square grid-based game that only allows four angles to look in, as opposed to other games (like Darkwood) that give you precise full-360 turning. This feels like pursuing realism (and not very realistic "realism") at the expense of understanding and interacting with the complex, janky, and fast-paced environment of SS13 as well as the dozens of players within it; and I don't think it's worth it at all. It makes me not want to play the game because it makes me feel uncomfortable at best, and disoriented and frustrated at worst. I dislike the concept itself, I see it as nothing but unnecessary, and I think the drawbacks significantly outweigh the benefits.

[Carver]

It feels very clunky, and unfitting. I'd rather them not be implemented, per arguments made earlier, but if they have to be, my primary feedback on what could be changed is one thing.

The 'noise effect' for entities behind you, is visually not terribly clear and rather ugly. It should be something much, much more visible - as there's already the downside of being unable to see what the thing behind me has equipped on them and who they are. Change the water water-puddle effect to something big, visually loud and consistent in that visual and it might be more tolerable - though I'd still prefer the vision cones as a whole not go through.

[Zelmana]

What I previously wrote was not as articulated as I liked. I'd like to echo TrainTN's description of the issues that I have had and still will likely have as long as this is implemented.

[Butterrobber202]

the test today was cool and I liked it

[Kintsugi]

I'm sure this has been said before, but I'll say it again: While making it so clicks will change your direction even when you're facing a direction is good, there still needs to be a UI button that allows you to enable face-direction mode. People shouldn't have to rely on the command bar, IC tab, or macros in order to be capable of actually fighting properly.

[Myazaki]

8 hours ago, DanseMacabre said:

there still needs to be a UI button that allows you to enable face-direction mode.

I will add this when I can get a suitable sprite for the button. Thanks.

[Myazaki]

11 hours ago, TrainTN said:

<snip>

I don't think you can compare SS13 to Dwarf Fortress, since SS13 is from a single player viewpoint and not an omniscient view of hundred dwarves. I know DF has its Adventurer mode, but that is not the main feature of the game. SS13 already has darkness and vision dependent on the position of the player.

I'd argue that SS13 isn't totally unrelated to horror games. We have antagonists that at least in flavor are sneaky (changeling, various thief antagonists). And I feel these modes in particular can be enhanced by the paranoia of not always knowing what is behind you. I've had some positive feedback from people in mercenary rounds, who found the possibility of being flanked to be exciting - and having to think about watching their backs.

This feature has been implemented with great success on other servers, and I hope you'll try it out a bit more and let me know if you think of any tweaks that make it more suitable for you.

There are hotkeys to change your character facing btw, if clicking to move your facing is awkward for you. You can rebind these however you choose. 

[Myazaki]

10 hours ago, Carver said:

The 'noise effect' for entities behind you, is visually not terribly clear and rather ugly. It should be something much, much more visible

My thoughts with the ripple effect were that it shouldn't be very visually noticable, 1 - so it doesn't bother people that don't care what is happening behind them, and 2 - so that people need to be paying attention to catch mr traitor sneaking around.

[TrainTN]

5 hours ago, Myazaki said:

I know DF has its Adventurer mode, but that is not the main feature of the game. SS13 already has darkness and vision dependent on the position of the player.

Yes, Adventurer Mode is a main feature of the game. It is treated as equally important as Fort Mode, if not more important nowadays. And while SS13 has darkness as a mechanic, it is not an omnipresent and overbearing factor of the game, because all the areas that need good lighting have good lighting the majority of the time. If the station had no lights and players were forced to walk around with flashlights everywhere, that wouldn't be fun at all, except maybe on Halloween.

5 hours ago, Myazaki said:

I'd argue that SS13 isn't totally unrelated to horror games. We have antagonists that at least in flavor are sneaky (changeling, various thief antagonists). And I feel these modes in particular can be enhanced by the paranoia of not always knowing what is behind you. I've had some positive feedback from people in mercenary rounds, who found the possibility of being flanked to be exciting - and having to think about watching their backs.

SS13 is not a horror game and should not emulate the deliberate gameplay restrictions of the genre, this game is clumsy enough already, it doesn't need to be made worse. Sure, vision codes may enhance some moments when it comes to combat or stealth, but that only applies to a small fraction of the server in any given round. I do not agree that a mechanic that improves 10% of the gameplay for 10% of the server's players is not worth forcing a burdensome mechanic upon the remaining 90% of the server for the remaining 90% of the time. And I think that's an optimistic estimate, at that.

This station is covered in doors that make loud noises on being opened, and you have to go through dozens of them to get anywhere. Attacking anything makes a loud noise. Doing most things makes noise. Most players cluster together in their departments, only being alone if their department is low-pop or their work requires it. The rest of the time they're either wandering around in public halls or sitting together and chatting. If you're not outright invisible like a ninja or cleverly disguised or a great actor or have x-ray vision or you're just plain lucky, sneaking around is next to impossible and it's for a lot of reasons outside of 360-degree player vision. The opportunities for stealthy antags to seriously take advantage of vision cones seems very limited to me, outside of running up behind someone and wordlessly stabbing them in the head, and you don't really need a blind-spot to do that.

"The paranoia of not always knowing what is behind you" isn't going to last forever. Sooner or later it's going to turn into "the frustration of not always knowing what's behind you."

5 hours ago, Myazaki said:

This feature has been implemented with great success on other servers, and I hope you'll try it out a bit more and let me know if you think of any tweaks that make it more suitable for you.

Good for those servers. I've never heard of them, I've never played on them, and if they have vision cones then I would prefer to never play on them, no matter how they implement it. This mechanic is not suitable for me.

Edited August 29, 2020 by TrainTN

[Carver]

6 hours ago, Myazaki said:

My thoughts with the ripple effect were that it shouldn't be very visually noticable, 1 - so it doesn't bother people that don't care what is happening behind them, and 2 - so that people need to be paying attention to catch mr traitor sneaking around.

I'd have assumed this change was for combat rather than sneaking. It doesn't really stop sneaking so much as make it annoying to face multiple people in combat, which remains but is somewhat less visually jarring with a more obvious and clear icon.

Even with the current state of it, it doesn't really seem to help sneaking at all from the couple of rounds I experienced it (one as an antagonist and one a non-antagonist). I'd have to be alt-tabbing or on cameras to be visually taken by surprise, and both of those already obscure vision. Footsteps, regardless of 360 degree vision, are what hurt stealth IMO.

[Flpfs]

While the vision cones appear to be well done, I think they are useless for their intended purpose (stealthy antag gameplay) and will instead just be a nuisance.

 

[Myazaki]

1 minute ago, Flpfs said:

I think they are useless for their intended purpose (stealthy antag gameplay)

 

Why do you say that? I've personally used them for sneaking around security behind the backs of Officers. Opportunities don't always present themselves, but they're there.

Also if this goes in I'm planning on implementing things like pickpocketing and maybe more stealthy shoe options.

[Peppermint]

Still just as against them.

 

As people have pointed out time and time again, people don't explore their environment with just their sight. I really don't think the indicaitors will make enough of a difference, and right now they're just annoying. I am, for the most part, struggling to see the benefit. 

[Carver]

1 hour ago, Myazaki said:

Also if this goes in I'm planning on implementing things like pickpocketing and maybe more stealthy shoe options.

Silent shoes in and of themselves would be good enough for stealth, without adding this sight mechanic. Someone has to be legitimately AFK to be taken by (stealthy) surprise up close by anything short of a Ninja with a cloak.

As mentioned earlier, the element of surprise isn't in silence and blindness but in making people trust you enough to allow you up close. This is a social game, not Splinter Cell, and it was never designed to really be the latter.

[Zelmana]

8 hours ago, Myazaki said:

This feature has been implemented with great success on other servers

One thing that I like about our development, and the entirety of the SS13 community, is that each server is independent. The codebases may share some similarities, yes, but eventually they stray far enough that they are very unique in the gameplay and functionality. Yes, it's good to adopt some things that become popular such as the speech showing in the game window, but other things not so much. I believe this is one of the latter implementations. Where it does, for a lot of people, impact the game and feel negatively. Just because other servers have this implemented successfully does not mean it should be here, nor if it can be implemented will it be 'successful' as that definition is opinion.

And I think it's a lot of people's opinion that this is unneeded and even disorienting, and the few benefits to stealth that we get from this we take away in other areas. I'll reiterate what I said a few pages ago regarding us trusting the player. We should trust the player to make the appropriate choices regarding appropriate vision cones and 'presence awareness'. For example, knowing that someone is behind you because you haven't heard them walking away, you're able to do so by seeing their sprite still in the same area. I don't think this is something that needs 'fixed' because it is not broken. We're adding a literal blinder to the horse that is the player instead of trusting them to make the right decision on what direction is straight.

Once again, stating my own opinion, I think this is disorienting and extremely annoying in any aspect of roleplay, from chairRP to heavy combat.

[Myazaki]

1 hour ago, Zelmana said:

 Just because other servers have this implemented successfully does not mean it should be here, nor if it can be implemented will it be 'successful' as that definition is opinion.

Yes, of course. I'm just responding to people claiming it is not possible to do right in this engine / style. Obviously our server is its own thing.

[Sparky_hotdog]

Personally I'm not sure how I feel about them. On the one hand, I play Aurora over other servers because of the RP (obviously). And from that perspective, its just an annoyance that doesn't really add much to my experience. On the other hand, I can see why from a combat RP perspective, particularly those going for a stealthy antag gimmick, I can entirely see why people abusing the 360 view is an issue, and one that can't really be enforced any other way.

I think perhaps I'd be onboard more if the cone froze what was in your view the last time you saw it, and thus you don't have the very strange moments when you see a console change screen 5 meters behind you. But to be honest I'm not sure that would fix it. This may suffer from a similar thing to other failed SS13 endeavours: trying to be too realistic.

I know it might not be that helpful, but that's my thoughts.

[Myazaki]

24 minutes ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

<snip>

Thanks for the feedback -- If I can solve a problem involving copying clothing images without it being too costly, I will try and add afterimages in the test-merge soon to see how people feel about them. I worry they will clutter things, but I guess it's worth a try.

[Snoopy11]

I've played a few rounds with the cones, and I can say I'm hugely against it.  It doesn't fit with the way you control your character, or the way people look around in reality.  I can turn my head to glance to the side, and even with the very large cone, a quick glance just looks odd. 

If our player control scheme somewhat matched Citadels combat mode, where your character will follow your mouse, this would be fine and I could see it being okay.  But as it is, it ruins things for myself.  My two pence.