[Dismissed] Remove or Add 'Secret" Chemicals/Recipes to the Wiki [Binned: 05/01/2018]

[Bygonehero]

Elitism shouldn't exist in this game. Secret chemicals/recipes, as well as the active effort to hide them from other people, is stupid. It breaks game immersion when your scientists refuse to tell their boss anything about what they are doing.Secret knowledge people refuse to share, even when they icly should is cancer. I would rather it be revealed, but secret knowledge or mechanics should not exist in this game.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Guest

[Snakebittenn]

This thread involves IC events in an ongoing round.

[BurgerBB]

I have mixed feelings about this.

I think that all the mostly cosmetic secret chems should be behind secret recipes that are static; known to players only if they know the recipe.

However, I think the more powerful chems should have a randomly generated recipe that's generated each round. The recipe in question would be something like:

1 Random Mineral reagent, 1 Random Medical Reagent, 1 Random Basic reagent.

Something like: Uranium, Tramadol, and Acetone would make a secret chem.

[Bygonehero]

This thread involves IC events in an ongoing round.

 

It's generalized enough where its not really events about a round. I've seen it occur before in other rounds too. Not just with chems, but with hidden foods/drinks too.

[Guest Menown]

The issue is, currently only a select few know about the secret chems and have actual access to the recipes that currently exist on a config file only accessible to admins. The only person that actively uses these chems is Alberyk, which gives him a direct unfair advantage over the rest of the playerbase, especially when he uses some of the more destructive chems.

This honestly shouldn't be allowed. Either everybody should be able to have access to the recipes, or everybody should be forced to learn them on their own.

[Alberyk]

This honestly shouldn't be allowed. Either everybody should be able to have access to the recipes, or everybody should be forced to learn them on their own.

 

Except those recipes can be changed, and there are other players that already found them. I did not know all secret chems recipes, even if I added the majority of them, I found estus(that was added as the first one, under printer's suggerstion) on my own. Also, those recipes are hardly stronger than your regular explosive or sedative mixture.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

We've had secret chems since 2014 and yesterday they suddenly became contentious.

Secrets and mysteries are good. There is little elitism to be had in knowing something you don't. Explore, experiment. We are a research station, go research.

[Bygonehero]

We've had secret chems since 2014 and yesterday they suddenly became contentious.

Secrets and mysteries are good. There is little elitism to be had in knowing something you don't. Explore, experiment. We are a research station, go research.

 

Except when people use the OOC nature of secret chemicals, ' the fact that they are not on the wiki' to dictate their IC actions. You are telling me, that the RD cannot know EXACTLY what their scientists are making, and exactly what they used? You are telling me that ANY doctor cannot know EXACTLY what they are injecting into a person and whats inside it? What if this person had an allergy? Medications IRL have a standardized system of identification to avoid exactly this, but beyond that, people ignore IC reasonings in favor of keeping the secret.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

If I know the recipe for an IRL philosophers stone I will use it to my advantage and not tell my research director. It's MY power that I found through research and hard work. RD's are not omniscient.

What secret chems are being abused?

[Faris]

We're currently discussing this matter actually.

Would a fair compromise be that these recipes are only maintained by people that have direct access to the config? Garn, Skull, Arrow and myself essentially.

I'm also sure that none of these chemical things even do something exclusive? Feel free to correct me on this.

As it stands, the premise of them being "secret" is something I want to maintain. People have experimented and have found interesting compounds, why shouldn't they be rewarded for actually experimenting in the science department? There are people that have discovered these things beyond the people that coded them.

[Sytic]

Right, so when Chemistry is a "done did" thing, you go in and make the chems and then are effectively a guy smoking in his lab. Why do we remove something awesome to do for those chemists who are so goddamn skilled that they can make everything at the speed of sound, and then have to spend the rest of their round bored because of your amazeballs work at Chemistry? This is something neat. Science has a reason to experiment with their chemicals with this, too. This is just something fun.

[Guest Menown]

Right, so when Chemistry is a "done did" thing, you go in and make the chems and then are effectively a guy smoking in his lab. Why do we remove something awesome to do for those chemists who are so goddamn skilled that they can make everything at the speed of sound, and then have to spend the rest of their round bored because of your amazeballs work at Chemistry? This is something neat. Science has a reason to experiment with their chemicals with this, too. This is just something fun.

 

The problem arises that if the chemical is discovered, keeping it secret from the place that hired you is bad juju. You'd likely be fired over it.

If we had an IC way of handling discovery of chemicals, that'd be great, but as it is, we don't I believe.

The only time anything like this was done was for the discovery of Vaurca, where Phoebe Essel won a Nobel Prize over it.

[Ron]

If you can't be bothered to spend time searching for a secret chemical that isn't on the wiki you shouldn't be playing. Not everything in this game is going to be spoonfed to you. Too hard to find? Good. It's meant to be that way.

[Ron]

Maybe a tip or two like Goon does would be fine.

[Faris]

Since this is more of a policy suggestion, I'm moving it to the correct sub forum.

[Saudus]

Maybe actually post on the wiki that THERE ACTUALLY ARE secret recipes? I had no idea and I pretty much lurk read everything on this forum/discord during my SS13 active periods.

[Faris]

Maybe actually post on the wiki that THERE ACTUALLY ARE secret recipes? I had no idea and I pretty much lurk read everything on this forum/discord during my SS13 active periods.

 

Another good compromise I feel. Note that they exist, just not the whats and hows.

[Saudus]

Maybe actually post on the wiki that THERE ACTUALLY ARE secret recipes? I had no idea and I pretty much lurk read everything on this forum/discord during my SS13 active periods.

 

Another good compromise I feel. Note that they exist, just not the whats and hows.

 

Doesn't actually even need to put it in big, bold letters with it's own section and everything. The single line "Ohh, and there are recipes we haven't listed here. Try to experiment and figure them out!" placed at the very end of the page would be sufficient I think

[Skull132]

I don't see how elitism enters the fray. The claim is tantamount to saying that allowing some players to be superior in combat, by virtue of skill, is elitism. That is an exact, 1-to-1 comparison. There are certain skills and knowledge which is not on the wiki, which should be learned. There is nothing stopping players from cooperating or spreading the chem info ICly.

Further. It's not just staff who deal in said chems. There's a set amount of players who are investigating and trying to discover them. And have actually successfully done so.

The only admission I'll give is that they're somewhat badly implemented. It'd be nice to have them appear ingame in very rare circumstances, IMO. To integrate them just a bit more, as to make others aware of their existence naturally.

[Arrow768]

I completely support adding some information about them to the wiki.

• That we have them
  
• Their names
  
• Hints about their ingredients. (However it shouldn't be straight forward to figure out but still require some experimentation)
  
• And possibly hints about their usecase
  

[HunterRS]

I support adding that they exist, I have in that round asked about it ICly, and have been denied because they don't want to give me it. It was annoying IC and OOC, and they wouldn't even give me a hint in OOC at all. And I have looked in the code and found nothing of the like. I 100% support adding what Arrow said.

[TishinaStalker]

I completely support adding some information about them to the wiki.

• That we have them
  
• Their names
  
• Hints about their ingredients. (However it shouldn't be straight forward to figure out but still require some experimentation)
  
• And possibly hints about their usecase
  

 

As someone that literally only plays Chemist and nothing else for years, I can agree to parts of this; more specifically knowledge that we have them in our code and cryptic hints.

I'll never not support secret chems because at the end of the day, none of the secret chems are 100% vital, some of them aren't even remotely useful to the average player, and the ones that are useful have their purpose VERY easily fulfilled by literally anybody else in the medical bay. I believe that secret chems are vital to Chemistry and some people that put their opinions on secret chem removal do so without even playing Chemist in the first place (not accusing Bygone of this as I'm unaware if they do or don't). In four years of playing Chemist, I can assure you that it is a VERY boring job. You knock out your list of chemicals to fill the fridge in 10 - 40 minutes based on skill level and then you do absolutely nothing until CT/evacuation because now nobody needs you unless somebody is going out of their way to sabotage the chem fridge or is intentionally withholding chems for their own selfish reasons. Secret chems add a lot more creativity, fun, and intrigue than you might think, as well as actually adding a research element to both Chemist and Scientst; since there's a Chemaster in Science for a reason. If the formulas for it are revealed, then everybody who plays Chemist has zero reason or incentive to create these secret chems and do some actual research. I don't care about the arguments behind "Oh, but realistically speaking..." because at the end of the day this is a game. If we have a job that's very boring, then we should strive to do SOMETHING to make them fun. Gameplay should come before realism in certain cases and this is definitely one of those cases.

[Scheveningen]

I never really thought that the secret chemicals thing was ever really a good idea (largely because I don't think information should ever be deliberately hidden from a player), but the compromise should be that there should be an actual system of hints in the game somewhere that might help you actually figure out what the chemicals are short of deliberately testing every possible combination. Since I don't think anyone would really want to spend round after round looking for those combinations.

[LanceLynxx]

I don't see the point in removing secret chemicals. It has nothing to do with elitism, and more with you doing actual research.

This strikes me as "I can't do it so I want it easier".

Secret chems are something that requires some player effort and thought processes, just like actual research, not just replaying the same mechanics, much like other jobs that are seen as "too hard/elitist" like telescience, telecomms setup, NTSL scripts, circuitry, viro, and perhaps xenobio.

So.. Let's say someone put effort in and found secret chems. I don't understand why they are obligated to share. It's up to you to find a way to make them talk. Befriend them. Spy on them. Bribe them. Find a way just like you would IRl.

If they don't, well, how about you put on mask and goggles and figure out yourself?

Much the same way I never share exactly how I make some circuits, or how telescience is in it's exact nature. And when I do give a little information, it's not the entire map to the goldmine (I have yet to see anyone make a copy of my man-saver implant, for instance, even though I've already handed out the parts required; I've made a rudimentary telescience guide which is in the wiki, which explains how it works but only roughly)

I really don't see what is the issue here. Going back to my first paragraph, it just seems like "too hard pls nerf", instead of making the effort, you want the bar lowered.

a solid -1 from me, if I can even vote on this

[Scheveningen]

I think it's still important to not immediately dismiss concerns regarding the intent of the individuals that put in the secret chemicals into the game. As there's an elixir of life kind of chemical in the game, then the question should not be, "Should we allow this to be common knowledge" but rather, "Should this even be in the game?" We also need to ask why that type of chemical is being put into the game if it deliberately upsets the typical path you would normally take to achieve a certain gameplay result, such as reviving someone from the dead.

There's also Azoth which heals organs and bones instantaneously. Quite redundant considering how easy it is to fix both normally, but add into the equation that a chemical is able to do this, and now having surgeons as an occupation is just utterly laughable.

Like, I don't see the point of adding secret chemicals to the game that cause this degree of gamebreaking behavior that will completely flip the game flow on its head as soon as someone figures it out. The devs could easily change it as soon as it's discovered, too, but then we're just unnecessarily resetting the cycle? For what purpose? This would quite literally be the definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.

It's gatekeeping. It is deliberate and malicious gatekeeping.