Staff Complaint - Lordfowl

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

BYOND Key:  Senpai Jackboot
Staff BYOND Key: Lordfowl
Game ID: Discord.
Reason for complaint: Unaddressed poor conduct for a member of staff.
Evidence/logs/etc:
 

Spoiler

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Additional remarks:

These are minor samples of his behavior. Lordfowl has extensively behaved in bad faith. He had a PR to remove skrell for several weeks to remove Skrell while we were actively looking for a lore developer for them. He abused the calender system for the new forum that was enough to make Arrow disable it entirely. He is constantly negative, attacks the character of other staff and players, and is generally incredibly hostile.

He has acted like this in the past when he was a lore developer. His behavior has returned to how it was. He does not seem to feel anyone within the community is worth basic respect. I have had to keep him blocked for quite some time because I cannot engage with him due to his general behavior towards me. The steps i have taken to try to have these complaints addressed have not resulted in any tangible results.

His behavior is damaging to Aurora. As a member of staff he represents us, the rest of staff, and our community as a whole. Several new players have expressed confusion or being uncomfortable with Lordfowl because of his behavior on the public discord. I have brought these concerns to Arrow and Garnascus but am not aware if he has faced any punishment for his behavior so I am coming here.

He should not be allowed to participate in the public discord for our community if he is going to behave how he behaves. He has not shown any improvement. Several have remarked that he is a net negative to their experience on our server's discord, and I am asking that these people post their experiences here.

[EngineersDream]

Okay, so since there is no specific event being brough up here I'm not entirely sure how the rules of staff complaints apply here, so feel free to throw this post in the bin if it doesn't apply.

I found myself confused about Fowl's behaviour and the seemingly wide-spread acceptance of it, when I can imagine that other staff members would not get away with it like that. Quite frankly it feels like he is often actively trying to be hostile towards others. I don't want to imply that that is the actual intention, of course. Perhaps there is history that I'm not aware of, but it seems to me like there's a deeper seated issue here.

I don't have any specific evidence of negative encounters I personally have had with Fowl since I don't tend to keep screenshots of these things, but there certainly were negative encounters.

[VUX]

Personally I've found Lord Fowl needlessly confrontational and honestly pretty rude. I've put a screenshot in of my only real interaction with him, but how rude he is (and the way he chooses to be rude) to everyone else is honestly pretty disheartening. 

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[UnknownMurder]

This is a persistent issue in staff chat in discord. I had once contemplated to file a staff complaint but spoken with Arrow behind the scene and I believed it was a better to take it up with Skull. I have contacted Skull regarding and further explained Fowl's behavior upon request. I have not heard a single response back whether issue was handled or not. So, I'll pursue this case along with Jackboot. 

Here is the chat log below taken from Staff Chat regarding his negative attitude. Let me remind everyone of the ugly truth. He is not joking when he said these words. I intentionally allowed Coalf to be direct as I was beating around the bush. We later got to see Lord Fowl's true intent. Undeniably that this attitude is unacceptable. I'm not fond of developers intentionally trying to screw other developers' WIP project of any kind whether how small or large it is. It could become more of an issue it it happened in public's eye and left alone not noticed by original developer. What I foretold in my conversation with Arrow just did happened. I'm disappointed in Lord Fowl as I'm sure that many other staffs are as well disappointed in this. 

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[Mofo1995]

This will probably say more about me than about Fowl, but I genuinely enjoy him and the input he provides. He's posts have a bite and spice to them that I love. Is his conduct acceptable? If I held that standard the community would probably die from the outright hostility I'm usually okay with. 

 

He's a fantastic writer, I believe but can't authoritatively say he's a good coder. His role play is excellent and has a depth a maturity about it which is both insightful and incredibly rare. Not that I mean to say I encounter him on station frequently, but recalling older days, events surrounding the city council, and his masterfully crafted Tajara application. 

I'll be frank too. Sometimes he puts bad ideas in their place. The manner he does it in is always curt and hard hitting, he doesn't let down softly like I might. Are the words he used and methods appropriate? I enjoy them in a cynical way but maybe not. I understand he's not everyone's cup of tea and that his position is such that he isn't just some random guy in the community. 

I won't posture and say I'm disappointed in him. In other circles outside of Aurora I fling hurtful comments without batting an eye and receive them too. But this is Aurora and not my other circles, so make of it what you will.

[Skull132]

Just as a notice, I am inactive and relatively well occupied until Sunday. So, depending on we want to handle this with @Arrow768, actual movement might be slow until then.

Until then, please don't turn this into a peanut gallery: only post salient points and don't get too caught up in arguing back-and-forth. kthx.

[Scheveningen]

While Fowl is no doubt a very capable developer, he certainly has an attitude problem that rounds out to simply being a jerk.

In being a jerk, I mean;
1.) Fowl has a tendency to, whether sardonically or not, speak very highly of themselves.
2.) Fowl has a tendency to make offensive jokes at the expense of whomever he's joking about, often using offensive language to make a point, often unnecessarily.
3.) Fowl has a tendency to be pushy and adamant in justifying their behavior.
4.) Fowl has a tendency to be mean-spirited.
5.) Fowl has a tendency to not be very respectful when others express their opinions, often going so far as to undermine the intelligence or worth of other members of the community, staff or no.
6.) Fowl has a tendency to have a certain tone when discussing things he does not like, to the point where one might think he is adopting the tone of a habitual complainer/whiner. While it's OK to have concerns and voice them, it's not OK to adopt the tone of a whiner. Whining is stating you don't like something for the sake of saying it, as a note.

While I understand Fowl is not always 100% serious and has a very dry, deadpan sense of humor that I frankly enjoy a lot, Fowl has to be able to understand when not to cross a certain line and when such humor is appropriate. If a serious topic is being discussed and Fowl comes in with his opinion, you can guarantee either one of two outcomes will happen: 1.) Fowl will shitpost everyone into stopping the discussion and derailing it into something else, 2.) Fowl will rarely add a few things to contribute to the discussion in terms of intrinsic value.

There's a time and place for humor, but one has to be particularly careful about being edgy or offensive. And in most cases, "Fuck you" as a joking retort to someone else is rarely funny except to extremely good friends.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Well he has seen the complaint but doesnt feel its worth his time i guess.

[KingOfThePing]

Fowl is very simple, if you do not agree with him or his views 100% of the time, all the time you can expect a variety of insults directed to you and even if you do you are not safe from his trashtalk. I've never seen someone go ad hominem in such lightning speed as he does, for no reason at all. There is nothing against some banter, but I personally do not think it is. I never had a normal conversation with him, no matter the topic. Maybe I am lucky and still have some screenshots, for example, when he voiced his opinion about the minor wiki changes to Lab Asisstant requirements, it was truly amazing. It is beyond me, how anyone could defend him or his behaviour, given his position as a developer.

Edited November 29, 2018 by KingOfThePing

[Bygonehero]

I've worked with fowl probably more than any single developer in recent times, I have never had a problem with him. If everyone had the same passion for the lore fowl has, then we would be better for it. Fowl has never provided me negative criticism. There is always a reason and its from their oblique point of view, without reguard to niceties or sacred cows that I have become a better lore writer in general. This is just in my opinion harsh criticism taken personally, with assumed ill intent. You will likely not find a better person to hold the lore as it is to task than fowl. 

[Itanimulli]

Leave my dad alone.


In less memey ways of going about things, I could raise a staff complaint about almost every single one of you, and yet none of you would be able to use the same excuse fowl enjoys: Consistence. Fowl is always like this. Literally always. You will never not find fowl being a foul fowl. There's no point in arguing with him, and if you haven't learned that by now, here you go here's some important info.

You'll know when fowl's being genuine, because it will catch you off guard. But when you get those verbose posts about mundane topics that all have ridiculous premises, how are you really angry at this?

It's literally like when you told para " If you ever ping me for 'i have a meme' and you have thee fucking ADUAICITY to not even UNCLUDE THE MEME IN THE PING I will unleash a whoop ass upon you with a force so through that it will scour the very earth upon which you stand and all that witness it will have never before seen something so terrifying nor will they ever again ". Literally. Imagine if Para took this serious. You'd probably be looking at them with the same confusion that I look upon this staff complaint.

[Itanimulli]

Also. A thing to note about the skrell thing: the moment that PR came up, the number of played skrell skyrocketed. 

I'm not saying he intentioned to do that on purpose, but you have to admit it was pretty damn beneficial. Besides, he makes meme PRs almost all the time.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, Itanimulli said:

It's literally like when you told para " If you ever ping me for 'i have a meme' and you have thee fucking ADUAICITY to not even UNCLUDE THE MEME IN THE PING I will unleash a whoop ass upon you with a force so through that it will scour the very earth upon which you stand and all that witness it will have never before seen something so terrifying nor will they ever again ". Literally. Imagine if Para took this serious. You'd probably be looking at them with the same confusion that I look upon this staff complaint.

the fact you think that quote from me to paradox is the same as the quoted remarks in my op blows me away. thanks for your testimony though.

[Itanimulli]

5 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

the fact you think that quote from me to paradox is the same as the quoted remarks in my op blows me away. thanks for your testimony though.

I aim to please senor.

[Coalf]

2 hours ago, Itanimulli said:

In less memey ways of going about things, I could raise a staff complaint about almost every single one of you, and yet none of you would be able to use the same excuse fowl enjoys: Consistency. Fowl is always like this. Literally always. You will never not find fowl being a foul fowl. There's no point in arguing with him, and if you haven't learned that by now, here you go here's some important info.

 

2

This is a strange argument, the first implication is that everyone had behaved in a way that could be used to raise an entire staff complaint over, alright fair, nobody is innocent.
But the way you structure the argument further baffles the mind, it implies that the excuse for Fowl's behavior is the fact he acts like this constantly when I think that would be the exact reason this complaint was made. Further, the implication that no discussion can ever be had with him due to his prickery is a very strange defense. I'd even think this was somehow a subtle and hidden criticism.

Hiding ignorance and inability to argue behind eloquent and long-winded prose or biting commentary gets annoying, true, but I wouldn't call it something to make a complaint over.
However what I would make a bashing over is the overuse of slurs in a negative context and the rule numero uno, "Don't be a dick".
There are two ways you can regard slurs, "Always bad" or "Regarding context". This server operates on a mixture of both and I agree that words become negative based on context, not based on the word itself.
Fowl has violated both definitions, be it the "context" argument or "always" argument.

And going from what I know as observed from chat Fowl HAS been talked to about his behavior previously, two times last month and this month about the calendar, yet it keeps repeating.
And I think this is where I take an issue, the refusal to acknowledge anything bad had been done in the first place and thus the inability to learn from it. Hinting at the fact that it'll just keep happening.
 

In the end, I think people overfocused this complaint on the stupidity of the arguments rather than the actual issues with the author which were the origin of this complaint.

[LordFowl]

1 hour ago, Coalf said:

And going from what I know as observed from chat Fowl HAS been talked to about his behavior previously, two times last month and this month about the calendar, yet it keeps repeating.
And I think this is where I take an issue, the refusal to acknowledge anything bad had been done in the first place and thus the inability to learn from it. Hinting at the fact that it'll just keep happening.
 

In the end, I think people overfocused this complaint on the stupidity of the arguments rather than the actual issues with the author which were the origin of this complaint.

I was spoken to twice last month, once regarding calling Coalf a faggot and once regarding calling people in OoC autists. You say that this behavior I was spoken to of keeps repeating, but I find this to be incorrect. As the server tightens its opinion in slurs I have been nothing but compliant, and I think you’ll find that their usage has been adequately reduced, and is not “repeating behavior” as you insist. Considering in these cases it was only my useage of slurs that was formally raised, I don’t know what other behavior could be repeating “despite being spoken to about it”.

I was never formally spoken to about the calendar event and to be honest I would laugh at any attempt to do so. If this indicts me then so be it, but to me the calendar event is the height of insignificance and all of the controversy it’s produced grossly disproportionate.

As for the rest of the complaint Jackboot hit the nail on the head when he said I didn’t think it was worth my time, but I did feel obliged to respond to this in particular as to correct your misunderstanding.  For posterity’s sake I’ll address each if the images brought up here in brief and chronologically;

1) I don’t know if Jackboot is purposefully taking this image out of context or if he’s really offended at the idea of someone telling him “Fuck you, telescience should spawn singularities”, but that was what the conversation was about. Telescience spawning singularities. Obviously facetious, even by non-Fowl standards.

2) That staff complaint was really dumb. I was spoken to later about calling people autists, even if big brain autist is a verified meme, but I still don’t feel it’s unjustified of me to call a really dumb staff complaint really dumb, even if I used the wrong words.

3) I genuinely don’t know what the problem with this image is. I was speaking from the heart here. I’ve a Burger style vendetta against the “Its just bait” meme.

4) “Lordfowl has extensively behaved in bad faith. He had a PR to remove skrell for several weeks to remove Skrell while we were actively looking for a lore developer for them. He abused the calender system for the new forum that was enough to make Arrow disable it entirely.“ I don’t think I’ve acted in genuine bad faith but you throw that phrase around so much it’s hard to take it seriously. I am not a particularly notable liar and even if I do lie it’s never duplicitous, so I really don’t know where the bad faith argument comes from. My Skrell removal PR was open for a grand total of 5 days (including the one day I opened it as an obvious joke), so already you’re wrong on that one but I’ll go deeper and say that I refuse to consider opening a PR to remove Skrell to be a bad thing considering up until that point the lore team was content to let Skrell rot. If anyone deserves a staff complaint over that fiasco it is you. And again the extent of my “abuse of the calendar system” was creating a single facetious calendar event. It is as significant as creating an off-topic post.

5) (VUX), again, I don’t see the problem with this image. You had an idea, I disagreed wholly with it and then explained why. Is there an issue I’m missing?

6) (UM), again with the calendar (notice above when I said it was disproportionately significant?). I have no problem with what I said here. I wanted to talk about the problems with the new forums (mostly about the editing issue) but the discussion turned into a lengthy (at least an hour long) diatribe against me for being such an inconsiderate jackass as to ruin Arrow’s day by...creating a calendar event. Am I really the only one who thinks this is ridiculous?

7) (kingoftheping), that is simply wrong. I argue with people that agree with me too. I’m an equal opportunity arguer.

Most of this complaint’s examples are insignificant and that’s why I haven’t responded to this complaint until now because I rathered to defer to official arbitration instead of getting involved in a lengthy complaints board flame war. I can only hope that my patience pays off.

Do I have incidents worthy of complaining about? Do I sometimes cross the line? Do I break the rules? Absolutely, but considering none of those incidents have been raised here as evidence that indicates to me that I think about them a lot more than anyone else, which rather soundly deflates the “he shows an unwillingness to improve” argument.

 

[Itanimulli]

2 hours ago, Coalf said:

Stuff

Fair 'nough. I just find the discord to be a constant hall of mirrors in wich a single shitpost is amplified sixfold.

[KingOfThePing]

2 hours ago, LordFowl said:

 That staff complaint was really dumb. I was spoken to later about calling people autists, even if big brain autist is a verified meme, but I still don’t feel it’s unjustified of me to call a really dumb staff complaint really dumb, even if I used the wrong words.

You can have your opinion, that's fine, even if I disagree with it, but then I have a question: That complaint did not include you, it didn't mention you, there was no input needed from you, you had simply nothing to do with it. You don't have to like the complaint, or the approach I took, but, please, explain to me why you feel the need to comment on it, if you find it that dumb and unnessecary, especially in such a manner in the public Discord? Strange, that such a stupid thing is apparently important enough for you to give it attention. Bullshit argument and nothing more than a shady give in, because you didnt only "used the wrong words". You used the wrong words twice. You can stop pretending, really.

2 hours ago, LordFowl said:

7) (kingoftheping), that is simply wrong. I argue with people that agree with me too. I’m an equal opportunity arguer.

You really made my Monday with this. "Equal opportunity arguer", laughable. Sadly I do not have screenshots to back it of, but here is my memory of said particular converstation:

 

Someone: Lab Assistant requirements are dumb, they should be changed

Fowl: Whoever cares about this shit is autistic

Me: Just because you do not care doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't

Fowl: Shut up no one cares

 

And this is the basic structure how conversations or """"discussions"""" with you go. It is literally not worth one's time to try to have a constructive conversation with you, for the simple reason that you do not allow such a conversation. You are much, but believe me, you are not an "Equal opportunity arguer" - more anything but.

Edited December 3, 2018 by KingOfThePing

[LordFowl]

Rest assured that my memory of said particular conversation is quite different, with the devil horns resting on someone else’s head. As I said, however, I’m going to try and avoid the 12 page long complaints flame wars this server loves. I’ve been here long enough to know how that shit goes down. So I’ll provide a statement to each new article of evidence, and that statement will be final on my part unless I want to add something or an administrator wants something clarified. Obvious bait aside, loaded questions aren’t likely to compel me to consider adding on to my statements.

[Zundy]

I like fowl. As has already been said his comments only stung because they hold a grain of truth within them otherwise they're just dumb and easily ignored. I have made bants with fowl often and it always feels like it's in good faith and he never offends me.

 

That being said, I can actually understand why fowls manners rile people up, especially strangers and considering his staff position it'd best to take a step back from that and change the public tone to a more "professional" and friendly one.

 

Essentially Fowl it's funny but it creates active detractors to you and the server. I think the server can take the hit as we have multiple staff members to soften opinion but having active detractors against yourself means that people will actively try and compromise your position. Not only that but any thing you do will be dismissed as hot garbage and this will only get worse until I'd imagine you yourself bow out. You can play that way if you'd like but it sounds pretty depressing to be honest, especially since you're such a cool guy. That's my opinion anyway.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Zundy

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I am not and i do not believe skull will be interested in fowls private banter or apologetics about how he is a nice guy. The issue i am bringing is when he drives players away or presents a negative presentation of our server by calling them idiot, autists, retards, or generally belittling them.

He needs to either raise up his self control to the bare minimum and not show open contempt for regular players or be resitricted from the platform where he is doing damage.

I use "bad faith" because it is a genuine term. When you call someone an autist or cuss them out youre doing it to belittle them instead of actually have a dialogue.

The counter argument to someone saying they want this behavior to stop is to leave the chats if they cant take it. And thats exactly the problem. We dont want to make people leave because of his behavior.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Marlon Phoenix

[UnknownMurder]

On 12/3/2018 at 9:25 AM, LordFowl said:

6) (UM), again with the calendar (notice above when I said it was disproportionately significant?). I have no problem with what I said here. I wanted to talk about the problems with the new forums (mostly about the editing issue) but the discussion turned into a lengthy (at least an hour long) diatribe against me for being such an inconsiderate jackass as to ruin Arrow’s day by...creating a calendar event. Am I really the only one who thinks this is ridiculous?

Regardless if it's disproportionately significant or not, it's a project and it had a bug that you knew of it. You acted on the problem by using software flaw a thus the result was unexpected to your advantage and Arrow was forced to disable it. I do not know why you're trying to pretend it is no big deal nor should you be proud of it. 

To reiterate my main point is that I'm not fond of developers intentionally trying to screw other developers' WIP project whether how small or large it is.  You are brushing off the main point. Take it from a developer approach, instead of reporting and informing Arrow whom is responsible for the project of the bug on a public code base that can be exploited. Ignoring the unwritten rule, you decided to exploit a bug as a developer. I'm very sure that Skull will feel insulted if a developer exploited his big time project that had an unintentional bug on a public codebase. Suppose you work for Amazon as an administrator. You notice an another administrator unintentionally created a bug exploit with a million dollar exclusive product. You think that it's a great idea to exploit that bug because there is an obvious incentive. Had Amazon superiors or whatnot found out about you exploiting the bug, your big time career is over unless you're very fortunate enough.

 

Here's some more screenshots from back then.

Spoiler

 

*timepass*

 

[Scheveningen]

22 hours ago, Zundy said:

Essentially Fowl it's funny but it creates active detractors to you and the server. I think the server can take the hit as we have multiple staff members to soften opinion but having active detractors against yourself means that people will actively try and compromise your position.

I re-read this post at least more than a few times now, not really knowing what to say because it was such a discomforting thing to read. What do you mean by "I think the server can take the hit"? Are you referring to people choosing to leave the server as 'an acceptable casualty' just to uphold this abstract concept of liberty, even allowing people to be smug POSes?

Before you say, "you misunderstand", you might want to look at that statement as 'Oh, I should've been more clear, because it already has awkward implications just saying it.'

I also want to say "Rusty Sh4ckleford died for this" to reference how we must often be cautious about how we police attitude and tone, but if I'll be honest, the way Fowl seems comfortable treating people is something that appears to aim below the belt and without really pulling any punches.

Is keeping Aurorastation as a community safe and fun for everyone not as important as ensuring we allow Fowl to be a dick whenever he wants to be? That's the question I've seen Jackboot pose and that's one I'll pose as well.

UM's post is also sound and still hits the mark here. We're not Amazon, true, but shouldn't we be upholding some principle of professionalism for staff members?

I can certainly speak of my own failings on that matter as a staff member. If I took the fall inevitably for having a bad attitude as a staff member (granted, I resigned), shouldn't some similar principle be enforced here? It sets a nasty precedent of what any other staff member can get away with doing if left unaddressed otherwise. I'm aware Skull's a busy person, but I'm not sure how I feel about him sitting on this issue 3 days past due date of roughly when this was supposed to be officially addressed.

Granted I don't see behind the scenes and rightfully so, seems a little odd for such a publicly-affecting issue like this hasn't been publicly addressed yet.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Scheveningen

[Zundy]

What? I said fowls creating active detractors and that though we have other staff members to soften opinion i.e. stop people becoming active detractors to the server he will still cause people to dislike him. 

 

I'm legitimately upset that you'd even think that I'd imply that I'd rather people leave then fowl change his ways which would be totally out of character for me as well as state that I'd then dismiss your question for clarity out of hand as "you just misunderstood"  which I don't do either.

 

How did that even cross your mind when in the text before I agree that his tone is awful and needs to change and afterwards appeal to the fact he could potentially damage the servers reputation and is damaging his own? 

 

For clarity I'm not saying fowl is fine, I'm actually saying he needs to change as he's damaging his own reputation and the servers. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Zundy

[Scheveningen]

19 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

I think the server can take the hit as we have multiple staff members to soften opinion

This is what I mean, in terms of what you said. I really don't understand what you meant by that. I don't think the role of staff members is to 'soften opinion' or whatever in terms of their role. I really don't understand what you're implying if you write something down of this caliber but don't literally mean it. It seems confusing in this context to say.