Player Complaint - Alberyk

[Kaed]

BYOND Key: Kaedwuff

Game ID: This is not based on a specific round but general behavior over many rounds.

Player Byond Key: Alberyk

Staff involved: N/A

Reason for complaint: This is more of a general complaint on the playstyle of the character Faysal Al-Shennawi.

For those of you unaware somehow of the character, this is a tajaran Head of Personnel with a storied history of military command, who tends to, whenever there is no active HoS, due to death or lack of staff, insert himself into control of security.  Among the pervasive behaviors exhibited by this character you can find:

-Self-promoting himself to unofficial Head of Security without consulting the security department or attempting to find an interim or replacement.

-Directing the movements of the security department during these crisis times, without any general consultation from the rest of the heads.

-Using his access as HoP to order piles of guns whenever even slightly justified (i.e. there are group antagonists), usually with bayonets and pump action rifles included, (which I'm sure it's only a coincidence were both added to the game by himself).  Sometimes, this weapons simply sit unused because security was perfectly well armed enough to deal with the problem, and he does not seem to consult with the rest of the heads before ordering these things.

-On several occasions has become some kind of antagonist terminator, relentlessly hunting down and gunning helpless/wounded/fleeing/otherwise no longer combative antags to death with ruthless efficiency.  Usually there will be some justification thrown in like that his friend was killed by the antags, or it was an accident and RNG he managed to shoot them in the leg then blow their head off while they were lying bleeding on the ground.  It's surprisingly difficult to make any administrative action stick to him when you ahelp him, for some reason.

To be perfectly honest though, most of this stuff wouldn't even be a problem, if he was actually playing a HoS.  Most of his behavior fits in perfectly well with the role of someone commanding security.  I would frankly like to consider moving this character to the HoS, because it's just not believable to me or balanced in the game sense that someone like this has a desk job and control of cargo up until it's time to become Wartime Cat General.  Battle-oriented characters shouldn't be placed in the same department that supplies the extra guns, because suddenly they have access to everything they could possibly need without having to go through any channels or communicate with other heads.  It's practically powergaming.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes.  Action is not normally taken due to extenuating circumstance within the round itself.

Approximate Date/Time: N/A

Edited December 2, 2018 by Kaed

[Alberyk]

I only order or do anything security-wise when there is the situation does call for it. With the great majority of those rounds being with security dying or me being the sole command member, I do not really ignore a head of security to order his crew around. And when there is security, I just either order them to do y or x over the radio, just moving to give them some help when it is needed. In the last round, security was pretty much a single officer and a forensic tech, with the hos, the other three officers and the warden being killed by the antags. The only thing I did was to order them weapons and told them to secure medical and get the hostiles. I only move alongside anyone armed when I just end being forced to army everyone, and a milita appears.

I do believe that every command member should be ready to deal with any situation that comes up, and my character is supossed to be a leader, if it is an emergency and the crew is in need of guidance, he would step and do so. And as we said, most of the time the cmo, ce and whatever will be busy, commanding their own department or just hiding somewhere ignoring the whole situation. It would be out of character to ignore those emergency situation.

Faysal does order bolt action rifles and other simple guns due to him being far more familiar with those, and the facts they are rather simple, which could just be used to arm the crew, which is done most of the time, when all of security has been murdered and antags are roaming the hallways killing people. It would be powergaming if he just got laser rifles, research lawgivers and mechas, but he does not have any idea how most of those works, and prefer to stick to something pratical. I would agree that having combat skills outside of security is bullshit if you are the first one to rush to action, which is not really the case. I only do anything when things are dire, and I do try to rely on the crew to help me, I do not really rush alone. 

But, I also don't understand the purpose of a complain when you did ahelp those situations, staff did look into it and did justify them as a valid.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Alberyk

[Kaed]

The problem is you play as both a HoS and a HoP at the same time.  The head of personnel has access advantages that make him very powerful as an ally, and the head of security has command of a group of people who are presumably supposed to wield a lot of collective power as an opposing force to antagonist.  When both of these roles are invested in the same person, it is a problem.

I frequently see you walking alongside security with a gun on your back, and this effectively is exactly what a HoS does.  It should not be what a HoP is doing.  The fact that the HoS was absent or died shouldn't be a justification for this behavior, and there are ways you could still effectively support security as a HoP without being on the front line with them and issuing tactical orders.  The military backstory is being used an excuse and justification for this behavior, when we are supposed to be actively discouraging people outside of sec from playing characters like this and claiming to be ex-black ops commandos now working in cargo or behind the bar or whatever.

You could also, you know, just play Faysal as a HoS and do what you like doing, just without also having infinite free guns on demand without having to ask anyone else for them.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Kaed

[Alberyk]

In the great majority of those cases, as I said, security is already low in numbers and I do avoid fights when it is not needed. The great majority of those situations are dire ones, I would not really do any of this if there was a head of security or someone. I don't see how the military background has anything to do with this, if anything, puts Faysal in a inferior situation, as he does not come from a military that deploys any advanced weaponry or tactic, he is nearly a napoleonic general that believes that charging with bayonets can solve everything. As I said, I don't see how it is powergaming when I am selecting inferior weapons due to my character motivation and backstory. A lot of times you might need a command member to negotiate with people, or just lead them on the field, in the cases of militas, as you can't just use all of their channels at the same time.

And I don't think that access would change anything in a situation where most of security is dead as the head of security, since you could just justify taking the spare or ordering people to do whatever you need to, which is pretty much what happens due to security just being access to the armory.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Alberyk

[Scheveningen]

The last actual time where Alberyk's justification for escalation was, in my mind's eye, wrong in any fashion was approximately two years time ago when he slit my merc's throat through a hardsuit despite me surrendering, simply because at the time I couldn't be cuffed (nor could I actually retract them anyway, due to paincrit). I was rather salty about that particular situation but it is the only recent memory I have of Alb going overboard, albeit that was the time of Yinzr, anyway.

This has changed for the better since that time for very good reason. I've played with Alberyk as command staff and even as a subordinate countless times, and there's been absolutely zero of those times where Alberyk went over the line making decisions as command staff to escalate in response to very loud and proud antagonists. Alb is one of those people you can trust to learn from their past mistakes and never repeat them.

13 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

I do believe that every command member should be ready to deal with any situation that comes up, and my character is supossed to be a leader, if it is an emergency and the crew is in need of guidance, he would step and do so. And as we said, most of the time the cmo, ce and whatever will be busy, commanding their own department or just hiding somewhere ignoring the whole situation. It would be out of character to ignore those emergency situation.

And this is a concept I wholeheartedly agree with and totally support. If you don't want heads of staff rallying the crew to defend themselves and inevitably shut down the loud antagonists, why not try assassinating the power structure responsible?

Almost never do I hear "What could I have done better?" from the individuals making complaints about IC issues where their character died in a video game. The individuals are, plain and simple, there to complain, and not provide much else in productive worth to a conversation.

As someone who's seen Alb operate as command staff often, I *highly* doubt the assertion that he went too far. Especially considering the mouth making the claim.

33 minutes ago, Kaed said:

 

-Self-promoting himself to unofficial Head of Security without consulting the security department or attempting to find an interim or replacement.

As if anyone would have time to do this with armed mercenaries, murderboning wiznerds/lings, or raiders. Rarely is there a decent candidate for HoS in the first place, otherwise said officers would not be officers, they would be whitelisted and be playing HOS.

 

34 minutes ago, Kaed said:

-Directing the movements of the security department during these crisis times, without any general consultation from the rest of the heads.

If nobody else on command staff is doing anything, why wait on them? Usually as CMO/RD/CE/anyone else I'm going to mind my own business in this regard if Faysal chooses to try and organize a defense, which is a responsibility they have free right to take on if they feel the need to, if there is no HOS/captain governing what to do.

 

35 minutes ago, Kaed said:

-Using his access as HoP to order piles of guns whenever even slightly justified (i.e. there are group antagonists), usually with bayonets and pump action rifles included, (which I'm sure it's only a coincidence were both added to the game by himself).  Sometimes, this weapons simply sit unused because security was perfectly well armed enough to deal with the problem, and he does not seem to consult with the rest of the heads before ordering these things.

Greatly undercutting the threat that a group of antagonists can project over the crew.
Greatly overexaggerating the amount of weapons even ordered by Faysal in cases like these in the first place.
Greatly out of touch as well, because there have been numerous times by my experience where Faysal communicated well in advance what he was ordering and for whom.

 

37 minutes ago, Kaed said:

-On several occasions has become some kind of antagonist terminator, relentlessly hunting down and gunning helpless/wounded/fleeing/otherwise no longer combative antags to death with ruthless efficiency.  Usually there will be some justification thrown in like that his friend was killed by the antags, or it was an accident and RNG he managed to shoot them in the leg then blow their head off while they were lying bleeding on the ground.  It's surprisingly difficult to make any administrative action stick to him when you ahelp him, for some reason.

Never heard of any of those occasions happen, sounds like bullshit especially if Alb/the admins at large aren't aware of this being a problem either.

The only solid point is the one where it's surprisingly difficult to make administrative action stick to an admin/mod being reported, because it's far more difficult to report a staff member of wrongdoing especially since staff have in-game mod/admin chat to defend their case immediately without the need for adminhelps. But this is an "in-general" issue and not one I would find applicable to Alberyk.

 

39 minutes ago, Kaed said:

Game ID: This is not based on a specific round but general behavior over many rounds.

Case in point, no specific evidence, just a ton of unsubstantiated claims. How do you honestly expect anything to get genuinely done, Kaed, if you seem so brazenly unaware of what policy is for actionable complaints (despite you being here for a pretty long time now, and using the complaint boards just as much if not more than the average person here)? If we're operating on the assumption that you're not just complaining to complain about behavior you don't happen to like personally.

 

25 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

But, I also don't understand the purpose of a complain when you did ahelp those situations, staff did look into it and did justify them as a valid.

Also a good point by Alberyk. What's the point of making a complaint about a player if the staff member looking into it said it was fine? Everyone that has used the complaint boards knows this concept. You should be making a complaint about the person who OK'd this behavior, which is also policy for if you actually want a complaint to be actionable in some way.

[Snakebittenn]

Every time I have ever played under Faysal Al-Shennawi and ended up getting involved in Outdated Tajaran Tactics Simulator, he has always taken a route of negotiation first. Whether it's asking raiders to just turn in their weapons to the armory/warehouse and they can go in, or otherwise. The only time he's randomly pressganged us into a militia is, indeed, when Security cannot function themselves, or even better when the antags have turned heel and killed all of Sec. Even then, we're never going around actively seeking antags to use line tactics on, it's largely defensive. Pls delete this post if it's peanut gallery, I've just had a lot of experience under Faysal.

[Kaed]

12 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Stuff

I don't have the energy to argue with your longwinded point by point argument style right now Delta, but I will point out you make a lot of assertions with no actual backing yourself, considering I just finished a round where the crate he ordered had a value of nearly 30k credits and contained three pump action rifles, two bayonets, at least one mini uzi, and a silenced pistol.  He also claimed he was planning to arm the crew with it, but none of the command staff had heard anything about the order when I questioned them in game, which to me speaks that he simply did it by granting himself the authority on the spot.

The events I mention were ones I was in rounds to experience myself, so telling me I am flat out exaggerating or lying to people is a little rich. You yourself have experienced a situation where you were executed for expediency in the past, and brush it aside as it such things could not happen when people claim they still are.

I don't expect anything about this complaint to be 'actionable' in as much as alberyk is punished, but I'm trying to encourage him to shift his focus from this playstyle. It sort of feels like this is a popularity contest right now, though, what with you slipping in things like 'considering the source (myself)'

Edited December 2, 2018 by Kaed

[Alberyk]

That is result of the round going down due to security being killed, together with the head of security. At the point that when you boarded and got yourself settled down as the captain, they were pretty much dead and no one was doing anything besides running around, and yes, I did try to avoid to speak in the command channel due to the head of security being probably killed and taken by the hostiles. However, I did report to you in person and later when it has been handled. If you were since the start of the round, and had it under your control, I would have done nothing but check on cargo and civillian.

[Scheveningen]

3 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I don't have the energy to argue with your longwinded point by point argument style right now Delta, but I will point out you make a lot of assertions with no actual backing yourself, considering I just finished a round where the crate he ordered had a value of nearly 30k credits and contained three pump action rifles, two bayonets, at least one mini uzi, and a silenced pistol.  He also claimed he was planning to arm the crew with it, but none of the command staff had heard anything about the order when I questioned them in game, which to me speaks that he simply did it by granting himself the authority on the spot.

Yes, almost anyone's allowed to do that with rampaging mercenaries or their alikened ilk. I'm gonna shock you with something Kaed, people are allowed to do the unconventional in nonstandard situations. That's the exact thing that makes the nature of roleplay so compelling. Are you suggesting people are not allowed to acquire means for which to proliferate self-defense measures?

Because that's a shameful thing to infer. Render whatever it is that is the opposite of the pat your own back unto yourself and be better.
 

7 minutes ago, Kaed said:

 

The events I mention were ones I was in rounds to experience myself, so telling me I am flat out exaggerating or lying to people is a little rich.

Considering how you have no proof to speak of beyond what you claim to have experienced, yet you're the only person who can attest to this sort of behavior (very strangely), perhaps you are indeed embellishing just a little bit. At the very least.

 

9 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I don't expect anything about this complaint to be 'actionable' in as much as alberyk is punished, but I'm trying to encourage him to shift his focus from this playstyle

Use discord for these kinds of conversations. If you didn't expect or want this complaint to be actionable, why did you even make it. Literally wat. Are you okay? Do you need a hug? Did you suddenly have a lapse of understanding what the complaint boards are for?

 

11 minutes ago, Kaed said:

It sort of feels like this is a popularity contest right now, though, what with you slipping in things like 'considering the source (myself)'

It's always a popularity contest when the unpopular person is complaining, isn't it? That damn bandwagon ruining my aurora. It's clearly not because I'm part of the problem.

[GreenBoi]

Just gonna pop in to say that I don't think Faysal really rushes to the killing and stuff as often as you say. In fact, Faysal does it like you'd do it on a Research Station that's supposed to be NanoTrasen's most productive and therefore, one of the most protected. During a round of Heist, the Pirates came in asking for items from the Vault with (if I can remember right from when I was observing) some hostage or thing to use as blackmail. I think Security on this round was very low and there was no HoS. Following what an ex-military Tajara who only understands how to operate outdated and not-as-efficient ballistics and has to deal with Pirates that somehow flew past the Station's BS Interdiction Net and wasn't shot by the NDV Incarus, he allowed the Pirates to take the precious, but not worth potentially letting a lot of the station die, treasures of the Vault. And then other events insured. I don't remember if the contents were actually given, but it was clear Faysal was going to do that option.

[Pratepresidenten]

Not that I play all that much command anymore, but whenever shit's absolutely hit the fan, and Im in medical, trying to mop up a slew of internal bleeding and legless screaming people, do I have an issue that someone steps up and takes charge with or without consulting me? Not in the slightest.

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

And I don't think that access would change anything in a situation where most of security is dead as the head of security, since you could just justify taking the spare or ordering people to do whatever you need to, which is pretty much what happens due to security just being access to the armory.

This here.  We're just skipping the extra step of having to break into the cap's office/bitch at the AI.

Frankly Im happy when someone takes charge and deals with shit, as all of non-security is either barricading, hiding or working some form of disaster management. The few times Ive experienced this crew militia, Faysal and his ragtag band of misfits has come by medical and posted there until things were a little safer before moving onto the next department, leaving a posted guard behind or some of the sort.

As it was stated somewhere else in the thread, diplomacy is always tried first, if that fails it escalates.

 

I really dont see the issue with someone taking charge and guiding the crew when all else fails. Whats the alternative? Roll over and get slaughtered? I mean, I can see why the whole crew militia might feel unfair as the tables suddenly turn on antags, but I honestly believe it generates more roleplay than its counterpart, and thats what we're here for, right? Roleplay?

[Resilynn]

Alb’s character’s background absolutely justifies this playstyle, and I frankly enjoy the kind of weapons he chooses, it all fits in very well with lore. I have never seen him form a militia when we had an HoS or functional security team. 

From the command perspective, I love when Alb does this because my character does NOT have that kind of background and absolutely can’t lead anyone into combat. My character hates it because his response to an emergency is to try to play by the book as much as he can, keeping his department organized, but OoCly, I love it. I only see it happen when I already have most of security dead in my lobby. 

From the perspective of a civ player, whenever Alb does this I get to actually participate in conflict for once, in a reasonable, chaotic, realistic little lynch mob. He involves the whole crew, which is what I love about it. 

It is unrealistic RP to expect a former military leader to not try to save the he lives of his crew and prosperity of his station because it’s not explicitly in his job description. It is unrealistic to expect nonsecurity crew to just lay down and accept death if their mall cops have died. I agree that this would be powergaming if he swooped in with lawgivers and homemade grenades, but he’s using shit guns from cargo, which he has every reason to be familiar with. 

The emphasis we put on not taking another persons job is for standard operating procedure, not red alert when security is dead. It’s bad rp, in my opinion, for non-security to NOT do anything when they’re fearing for their lives. In a fight or flight situation, flight only goes so far when you’re on a tiny asteroid station in the void with no reliable way off. 

[Kaed]

I don't personally agree with most of the stuff said here,  but I also don't have anything further to say. 

If this barrage of 'but I like Faysal's roleplay' is more meaningful than my bleating about balance in station roles, then I guess this thread can be considered concluded.

I'd just like to reiterate that I don't understand why Faysal doesn't just play a head of security.  His character just effectively plays like one during any applicable crisis.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Kaed

[TheOrleans]

As a very active member in the Security Department, I would like to pronounce myself

On the one hand, I LOVE FAYSAL'S ROLEPLAY, I find it so interesting, Albery manages to involve all the crew and well, he DOES make the round funnier for everyone

On the other hand, just like @Kaed said, I find it so unbalanced. Faysal should be moved to HoS, it is not correct, in my humble opinion, to have HoS mentality with HoP infinite access. And arming the crew is just, not real. You give someone without any training a shotgun, and that person will end up with a dislocated shoulder. You give someone a revolver, that person will end up with a broken hand or wrist. 

I would prefer to see Faysal as HoS. It is just not correct for a HRP server to have a Head of Personnel (who is some kind of human resource manager) to arm the crew against any threat, every single round a big threat is present.

Anyways, as many ones said before, Faysal always tries to negotiate before killing, but arming the crew is still not acceptable for me

Edited December 2, 2018 by TheOrleans

[Butterrobber202]

Everyone with complaints seems to be forgetting a big point of Alberyk's defense.

 

He does it when Security is UNAVAILABLE, DEAD, or DYING. He does NOT do it the second the antags rear their heads, and he only leads offensives when the other option is to die, e.g. the Nuke being set off.

[TheOrleans]

1 hour ago, Butterrobber202 said:

Everyone with complaints seems to be forgetting a big point of Alberyk's defense.

 

He does it when Security is UNAVAILABLE, DEAD, or DYING. He does NOT do it the second the antags rear their heads, and he only leads offensives when the other option is to die, e.g. the Nuke being set off.

One of the main problems is that, although his roleplay of ''arming the crew'' is questionable, no one ever goes fear roleplaying, they are all like YE GIVE ME GUN I AM A SIMPLE JANITOR, BUT GIVE ME GUN I WILL FIGHT UNTIL MY LAST BREATH, PLAY SOME SABATON WHILE I CHARGE TO DEATH

 

So, the problem is not Faysal, it's the other people who never roleplay the fear.

[Scheveningen]

2 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

He does it when Security is UNAVAILABLE, DEAD, or DYING. He does NOT do it the second the antags rear their heads, and he only leads offensives when the other option is to die, e.g. the Nuke being set off.

Which is the major reason why I don't find Faysal's behavior in these situations problematic. If he led the charge whether there was a HoS/security force or not, then this would be a problem worth looking at. Since the context is about whether Faysal is a validhunter, a lot of people have already said that he's never gone so far as to be guilty of such a thing. Alb follows the rules in this respect by escalating appropriately, and he's frankly one of the model, shining examples of players on this server that do it well and consistently.

[Sytic]

From the perspective of a Security player, who frequently finds himself as either a Visitor or alive by the time Faysal gets to work, I'd like to put in three main points:

1: Faysal sticks to what Faysal knows.

He doesn't touch Research (although if Research sticks their hand out, why not), other departments other than Cargo, and does the simple communist Tajaran tactic of taking a lot of bodies, giving them bolt actions with bayonets and charging. On that note,

2: Faysal's only strategy is a modicum of common sense.

Ironically this makes Faysal one of the best strategists on the server, but I digress. He does not know other methods to an end other than "we'll just charge and shoot at 'em, how hard can it be?" He knows how to secure places, and murder things. He knows when to fall back and when to push forward, and he knows how to communicate.

3: Faysal only does these things when Security is dead/down to a few people with no HoS, and his tactics are ALWAYS lethal, bar the enemy surrendering.

Faysal is not a Head of Security. His playstyle represents it. He doesn't secure a station, he fights a battle, raising morale and using a modicum of common sense. He outright murders most of the antags he comes across, because at the point where Security is dead, nobody is going to notice/care. I've never seen Faysal fight a battle before Security was fucked- ironically, the same round Kaed was complaining about proves this.

I found Faysal in the hallway as ODIN, said my usual greeting, and remarked that it might be in his best interest to carry a gun, as the Heisters have managed to get all across the station and raise hell. He said he wasn't going to worry about it, as Security was handling the situation fine so far. He also said he's gonna stick to his usual sidearm, as there's currently no major threat.

Sometimes, I disapprove of how Alb is lethal, and stronk in either Events or his characters. But I think he's gotten better- a lot better- yet Faysal has always been in my mind a stellar character.

Just my two cents.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Sytic
Harsh language.

[DeadLantern]

Just to add. Alb said he was removing Faysal from the Aurora, soon. Take this as you will.

[Allakai]

12 hours ago, DeadLantern said:

Just to add. Alb said he was removing Faysal from the Aurora, soon. Take this as you will.

I believe Faysal is to actually return to Adhomai this week or perhaps the next. I cannot remember but this point is valid.

[StationCrab]

I play as PATCH, and have been called to assist Faysal on a few occasions. He always seems to try negotiation first, and I can't say I've ever really seen the character do what I'd describe as power gaming in a normal round. The only time I've seen them arm themselves and the crew has been in seriously dire circumstances, such as security being wiped out, or when an evacuation is needed and everything has gone to shit.

The usual route I see this character take with merc rounds or other heavily armed antag rounds is negotiation or even appeasement with tribute and with payment or vault contents. I don't think I've ever seen them arm themselves or the crew at the first sign of trouble.

Also during events the character has actually added some really cool moments. I'm just not seeing what you are describing, but maybe I missed the round it occurred in.

I understand your point about HoP having access to whatever they want, but I don't see the character ordering insanely powerful weapons in dire situations, again maybe I've missed it. If you could provide some evidence or examples/logs of what you are upset with that would probably help your case.

Just my two cents.

[MattAtlas]

Coalf and I will be taking this and resolving this soon.

[MattAtlas]

On 12/2/2018 at 6:39 PM, TheOrleans said:

On the other hand, just like @Kaed said, I find it so unbalanced. Faysal should be moved to HoS, it is not correct, in my humble opinion, to have HoS mentality with HoP infinite access. And arming the crew is just, not real. You give someone without any training a shotgun, and that person will end up with a dislocated shoulder. You give someone a revolver, that person will end up with a broken hand or wrist.  

Arming the crew is an acceptable course of action if the situation is dire and the entirety of security is dead. Militias are not unrealistic as they HAVE happened, and a wolf will bite its leg off to escape certain death. Humans will, much the same, do anything to get out of a situation where the only other outcome is death.

Regarding the complaint itself, given our experiences, the witness statements in the thread and Kaed's statements we don't find anything that Faysal has done to be wrong. It is acceptable to take command of a security situation as Command staff if the situation calls for it- that's what Command staff is encouraged to do, command, and we personally don't find Faysal to be breaching any guidelines or rules in the way he's been doing it. That is, conservatively, and keeping it for when security died. Everything else has been said by the witnesses, and we find ourselves to be agreeing with them.

This complaint will be left up for 24 hours before being locked and archived.

[MattAtlas]

Locking and archiving then.