We Can Add And Enforce Discrimination And Prejudice And Xenophobia If....

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

A big issue is people not doing xenophobia correctly, with insufficiently moderated behavior.

And we have an existing whitelist system, which moderates behavior

I could within a week orchestrate humanity to be an oppressed and minority species. Skrell, who are the 2nd most coherent empire with a large presence in NanoTrasen, can easily take over the whole corporation if the corporation began to falter. Skrell will become the new command mains, with humans unable to become Captain.

Unathi, being the galaxies heavyweight behind NT and Skrell, also benefit on the meta level for this project by having strict hierarchies within their society with easily defined roles. Translating their hierarchies to the station will mean more interesting roleplay against the 2nd class citizens of humans, especially female humans, who can no longer rise as high as they once have.

Vaurca, being physically large, intimidating, and well organized, are another contender. Humanity being in turn treated how the Vaurca were treated would be a great narrative to explore for player characters.

We would be able to enforce xenophobia with our whitelist standards, because these standards are already enforced between the whitelisted species.

Humans could be denied promotions, or mistreated in the workplace, sometimes pushed around, etc, and since the people doing it have whitelists there is already oversight without CCIA or mods, just lore, since it is a lore issue.

[VTCobaltblood]

are you kidding

[Zundy]

Do it then if you think you're so tough

[Kaed]

I think it would be an interesting sort of week-event.  Not sure if making it permanent would be wise though.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 minute ago, VTCobaltblood said:

are you kidding

What do you find untenable in inversing the hierarchy of the station's species in order to utilize existing enforcement of rp-conflict standards?

[furrycactus]

I for one welcome our new Skrell overlords with open arms. Oppress the smelly apes.

[VTCobaltblood]

9 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

What do you find untenable in inversing the hierarchy of the station's species in order to utilize existing enforcement of rp-conflict standards?

1. I don't know how you're going to change the most dominant species into the most discriminated species within a week.
2. I don't know how you're going to enforce this sort of behavior in humans, considering they have no whitelists.
3. If Jargon overtakes NT, it would not be Nanotrasen anymore. Jargon has no corporations for a reason - it would become just a Jargon Federation station rather than a Nanotrasen station, which would screw with the setting tremendously. It'd require some remaps and a lot of wiki rewrites, and also rebranding of CCIA and Central Command in general. ERT, too. And the Foreign Legion... And removing the AI from the station... And outlawing IPCs... And a lot, lot, lot of other things...
4. A lot of people don't support racism already. Most people in the racism thread, in fact, voiced their disagreement with the thread's claims and calls to action.
5. It would somewhat screw with players' general expectations when newly coming to the server. On most other servers, humans are the dominant race, and I don't see a particular reason to go against this trope.
6. Actually, I don't know how you're going to enforce this behavior in whitelistees either. Vaurca essentially have a shtick of being discriminated - wouldn't that undermine it? Same with, say, Tajara.

I don't see it as a bad event, and a Skrellian map would be cool, but definitely not something to launch permanently - and especially in the manner you've described. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by VTCobaltblood

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

2 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

1. I don't know how you're going to change the most dominant species into the most discriminated species within a week.

A month is enough time for radical changes in a species, at most.

2 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

2. I don't know how you're going to enforce this sort of behavior in humans, considering they have no whitelists.

We don't need to enforce human behavior. We are enforcing the prejudice from the xenos against human characters. It is the onus of the rp-conflict creator to provide good rp-conflict.

 

3 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

3. If Jargon overtakes NT, it would not be Nanotrasen anymore. Jargon has no corporations for a reason

Wal-mart would continue to be wal-mart if its CEO and major executives were aliens, and we lived on an earth where aliens are passe. It's NanoTrasen because we say it is.

3 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

4. A lot of people don't support racism already. Most people in the racism thread, in fact, voiced their disagreement with the thread's claims and calls to action.

A major issue is people take xenophobia to mean openly assaulting or insulting people of other species in the hallways. By inversing expectations to put the people in power in a whitelist camp, we can cultivate the desired attitudes.

4 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

5. It would somewhat screw with players' general expectations when newly coming to the server. On most other servers, humans are the dominant race, and I don't see a particular reason to go against this trope.

We should focus on being Aurora, not being another SS13 server. There are a lot of things different between servers. Players can adapt.

4 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

6. Actually, I don't know how you're going to enforce this behavior in whitelistees either. Vaurca essentially have a shtick of being discriminated - wouldn't that undermine it? Same with, say, Tajara.

The state of each species in this new status quo is a question for each species maintainer.

[VTCobaltblood]

8 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Wal-mart would continue to be wal-mart if its CEO and major executives were aliens, and we lived on an earth where aliens are passe. It's NanoTrasen because we say it is.

The corporation would literally stop existing and be assimilated into Jargon Federation's direct assets if it is overtaken by Jargon. Jargon Federation has no corporations, everything is government-owned. Thus, no CEOs and major executives.

8 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

A major issue is people take xenophobia to mean openly assaulting or insulting people of other species in the hallways. By inversing expectations to put the people in power in a whitelist camp, we can cultivate the desired attitudes.

Openly assaulting others is an administrative issue. The current on-server racism is fine by a lot of players. Vaurca, for example, have to jump through bueracracy hoops to get approved for non-assistant positions - that is good racism enforcement (although it is undermined by existence of C'thur). I don't see how making humans discriminated fixes literally anything. Aut'akh were assaulted and dismembered by Sinta on day one, and you saw it as a good thing - is it not satisfactory?

8 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

We should focus on being Aurora, not being another SS13 server. There are a lot of things different between servers. Players can adapt.

Being needlessly unintuitive is not good. This is pretty much needless unintuitiveness. If people want to roleplay a discriminated character, they can apply for a discriminated species whitelist and play a character of that race - why should the default experience of a person on the server be being pushed around, mistreated and denied service? Don't you think that would chase players away?

Edited April 27, 2019 by VTCobaltblood

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 minute ago, VTCobaltblood said:

The current on-server racism is fine by a lot of players. Vaurca, for example, have to jump through bueracracy hoops to get approved for non-assistant positions - that is good racism enforcement (although it is undermined by existence of C'thur). I don't see how making humans discriminated fixes literally anything. Aut'akh were assaulted and dismembered by Sinta on day one, and you saw it as a good thing - is it not satisfactory?

Is it good species design to frame a species entire playstyle around being harrassed?

How do I enjoy the mechanics and play style of a species without having to face the IC harassment?

Humans have a lack of mechanics to their name, so you play them opting in exclusively to be at a disadvantage. The other species have interesting mechanics, which means you can play them if you want a unique playstyle without opting in to be harrassed.

[Sargentdsod]

For what purpose and what justification would this be implemented other than 'encouraging' (enforcing) IC conflict? In terms of lore, powerful civilizations don't necessarily give their species the upper hand in space controlled by others so there is no reason why being human would be stigmatized in a system populated by humans as opposed to Vaurca who are feared, Tajara who are poor, Unathi who are notoriously aggressive and Skrell who don't like AI. That's without bringing up the fact that inevitably they would horrifically kill each other over racial tension and conflict of interests anyways. In terms of generating interest and conflicts, this would be a poor game design move as it would put even more stress on admins to enforce and control the behavior of players who acquired these whitelists without these silly caviats. What are you going to do, strip their whitelist for not being comfortable or prepared to be racist ICly? Why would you seek out to limit player interactions to cookie-cutter conflicts and in what way would it benefit the rest of the lore, the server culture or the theme of the game?

These are all questions you should answer before moving forward with this. Personally I find it to be fairly asinine and creative resources would be better spent elsewhere.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Sargentdsod

[VTCobaltblood]

Just now, Senpai Jackboot said:

Is it good species design to frame a species entire playstyle around being harrassed?

It is good as long it is optional and not the default - if people want it, they can opt into it. You're suggesting to make it the default experience.

1 minute ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Humans have a lack of mechanics to their name, so you play them opting in exclusively to be at a disadvantage.

You are not opting in to play humans - it is the default experience you get on the server. By the way, humans have the highest stamina (longest sprinting time), high alcohol tolerance (which speeds you up), can be Captains, and have no particular weaknesses. A lack of unique mechanics is not necessarily a disadvantage - in fact, having mechanics can be a disadvantage like Vaurca only sustaining on k'ois. 

[Garnascus]

when i wake up i am going to go through this thread and ban everyone not following the rules. 

[Arrow768]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I do not think this is a good idea for the following reasons:

Currently we have opt-in discrimination (You have to actively choose to play a species that might get discriminated and have to invest some effort into that knowing full well that this might happen)

If we were to change the general dynamic so that humans are discriminated against, then that would mean we have a opt-out discrimination.
You would have to invest quite a bit of effort (choosing a species, designing a char, writing a backstory, writing a application, get support for that application) so you can play a species that is not on the receiving end of discrimination.

For me something like that would quickly turn me away from a server, since I wouldn't want to invest quite a bit of time just to enjoy a few rounds without being discriminated against.

[Arrow768]

To follow up a bit on the default opt-in/opt-out.

While I agree that humans are pretty bare-bones in mechanics (and that is fine) I would not want to have to apply to not be discriminated against.

One option to solve that would be to unwhitelist a species that we do not discriminate against.
But that would just lead to the same situation again just with a different species
(The quality of discrimination is unenforced again)

[Alberyk]

Also not a big fan of this. Things are fine as it is when it is about racism and discrimination in game. It would be too much to ask when most characters are humans and the setting itself is a human controlled country.

[Butterrobber202]

I for one, welcome our new Frog Overlords.

[Hendricks]

Do it or no balls, I demand more workplace conflict with those slimy bastards or those moth wannabe freaks.

[Flamingo]

Fully against. Arrow and Alb already voiced my concerns. But to reiterate, it’s not a good new player experience to be immediately forced into a species where you’re going to be discriminated against. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be really cool from a lore perspective, or even fun in-game, but I think OOC concerns trump that in my opinion. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

4 minutes ago, Flamingo said:

it’s not a good new player experience to be immediately forced into a species where you’re going to be discriminated against

Is this the same for new xeno players? Why is this discrimination bad for human characters but good for xenos? I was operating on the mode than conflict rp is what we want to see on station while also enforcing its standards more effectively.

[Flamingo]

They’re not forced into the species. As Arrow already said, they opted into it, which is why I think it’s acceptable. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Are they opting into a negative experience? Isnt the arguement that discrimination is a positive experience for players oocly?

[Flamingo]

I think existing players might enjoy the dynamic. I don’t think new players joining for the first time are going to enjoy it. 

 

For whitelisted species’ players, they know exactly what they are getting into when they sign up. A new player would not have this option, and if they don’t enjoy it will simply not come back. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Is xenophobia a positive or a negative for player experience then? Isnt xenophobia a driving away force for alien characters as well too? Everyone talks about how players will leave or not play human anymore - if this is so damaging then how damaging is it to xeno playercounts?

[Scheveningen]

On 27/04/2019 at 14:10, Senpai Jackboot said:

Skrell, who are the 2nd most coherent empire with a large presence in NanoTrasen, can easily take over the whole corporation if the corporation began to falter.

it wouldn't be a corporation anymore because the Skrell do not have corporations