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Let's talk about killing Borgs.


Curt

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So, this is a trend I've noticed recently that I really disagree with.

It seems the default response whenever a borg is suspected of a crime is to wordlessly blow it up, or flash it and keep it spam-flashed while you beat it to death. It doesn't matter what the Borg has been doing, what module it is, whether it's hostile, whether it's mid-sentence, whatever. I've been on the receiving end of these no-RP instamurders a few times, and I've seen other borgs subjected to them too. Surely this simply isn't cool. Borgs are players too, and deserve as much buildup to their murder as any other player.

I also argue that if any player of an organic or IPC were subjected to this sort of treatment, instant murder with no notice or RP, the players responsible would be bwoinked and banned. Let me use an example from a recent round.

Telecomms has been bombed. Naturally, Security checks the cameras, and sees an engineering borg surveying the damages. When the engineering borg tracks down an officer to tell them that shit's been bombed, the borg is wordlessly flashed before it can speak and beaten to death by three people because someone said "I think it bombed telecomms!" It wakes up halfway through, asks "Why? What are you doing?" a few times while they continue to murder it, attempts to flee, and then it dies. The chassis is left in the hall.

Now:

Telecomms has been bombed. Naturally, Security checks the cameras, and sees an engineer surveying the damages. When the engineer climbs back down to find an officer and report the bombing, the Detective busts all six caps into his ass without a word because someone said "I think he bombed telecomms!" The engineer asks "Why?" after having been shot six times, tries to run, and is then shot six more times. The body is left in the hall.

One of these is banworthy, and one is common practice. Both are murdering a player with no RP, no buildup, no nothing. What gives?

 

And to preempt the excuse of "you can't handcuff a borg so you have to kill it!" that's utter nonsense. Not only are there multiple computers you can use to lock down the borg, leaving it motionless and unable to use tools- kinda like somebody in cuffs, except also immobile- you could also simply flash it and keep flashing it until you had it locked in whatever room you prefer. If it tries to break out? Flash it again. And even if you had no options to detain a borg- would you instantly murder a human you couldn't properly handcuff?

An additional issue: borgs never properly 'die' on Aurora. They're forced to ghost out of their destroyed bodies. So... unless you sit in the destroyed body for however long it takes to fix you, you can't re-enter the body, even when they make you alive again. So no-RP murdering a borg player takes them out of the round, forever, period.

Edited by Curt
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This.

So much of this. Especially that last part.

I've had a merc round where I joined as a borg and spawned right next to the captain's office right as it was getting attacked. Once the hostiles were seemingly dealt with, a manhack grenade went off and what looked like engineers stormed into the room and began attacking the manhacks and me in the heat of the moment, got KO'd and removed from the round over what was conceivably a misfire. 

So basically, I got about ten minutes of high octane borg gameplay in before just dying, and waiting in my body, without even being able to see what was happening for about 25 minutes before giving up on being recovered.

It wouldn't be so bad if borgs could ghost without losing any chance of revival. 

 

I don't think we need to go overboard, there are situations in which, to use the term... It is completely 'valid' to kill a borg.

If you have good information that the station's synthetics are compromised and they are actively doing X to you, negotiations are futile due to their laws. You should do this in a way that allows for the player to have a good time, sure. But I have had situations where a quick combat decision would just make sense for my character.

Also in the situation you mention... That should be ahelpable, the people who murderboned you should be able to get charged with vandalism at least and sabotage at worst ICly.

 

One of the best things about borgs is that they can be fixed. If a competent enough roboticist repairs a malfunctioning borg, the body can be cut from the central AI, and a savvy science department can make an borg upload console to reset its laws.

I think canonically we could just make it common knowledge that borgs can be recovered when broken down or malfunctioning if people act fast enough.
OOCly, taking a borg to a roboticist should be treated exactly like taking a dying person to medical. 

Edited by Aphelion
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For reference- the situation with the borg murder I put into the OP is factual, and was ahelped. It was deemed fine by the admin responsible. This post is about how there appear to be simply different standards for anyone who plays a borg and situations around murdering them, and that's not okay.

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Borgs are a bit of a grey area. Player or not, you've essentially chosen to play property, which is a very big disadvantage in any antag situation. There exists methods to shut you down instantly and without remorse the moment something questionable occurs. Only authorized people can really lock you down or evaluate you (and that isn't instant, it takes time to tell people to lock down a borg and for them to go do it IF they go do it), you have access to everything mechanical on the station (there's no use "locking a borg in a room", it controls the room. That's extraordinarily dangerous), and you have no rights or way to be arrested for questioning (if there exists a person that can't be handcuffed, they are missing an arm and are less of a threat by default. Additionally, limbs can be literally dislocated if needed to null any threat).

 

If a borg is doing something questionable, it means its laws are acting up. There's really no way around that. Borgs don't have morality systems or reasoning, they have laws. If it is suspected of doing something (or even confirmed of doing something) against the set laws that everyone knows, it is somehow messed up and should be stopped. There is no "I was forced to!" or "It was an accident!" There is only the laws.

 

Is taking it to robotics ideal? Yes. absolutely! But players get upset even at that, because the most sure-fire way to get a borg to robotics is to take it by force. Again, you know something is wrong with it. Like when your very expensive toaster keeps making burnt toast regardless of how low you set the setting. So obviously, you take it to a toaster fixer. But obviously, players would object to being flashed and dragged to robotics without a word. But is it right to ask defective equipment, literally property, to go get fixed? As players, we feel like we have to. But honestly, it's much easier to drag it by its nuts (and bolts). ICly, there is nothing wrong with that course of action. You have taken the busted toaster to a toaster fixer (achievement unlocked!) and done your part.

 

But what if there is no toaster fixer? Or someone even remotely capable of fixing toasters? What if the toaster doesn't want to be fixed? Or what if the toaster is functional, but getting in the way of my plans to take over the world, one bagel at a time?

 

Well... we can't let it go on making burnt toast. Burnt toast kills people. Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons are no joke. So we come to your example situation.

 

In general, I'd say match the punishment with the crime. If it's a janiborg lubing up the hall, destroying it is a bad move. If it's suspected or confirmed to have had a hand in bombing telecoms, pop it before it hurts actual people. If it may get in the way of your own antag plans, then... Unfortunate loss. At the end of the day, it doesn't have any more rights than the stool in front of the kitchen. Security is meant to press if they are damaged or destroyed because they are valuable assets, but that's the beginning and end of the rights of a borg. It's like playing a Vaurca, particularly a Bound. You go in aiming to help, but you've also signed yourself up for being treated like an actual chair. And not even one with wheels. One of the derpy ones that rock back and forth because one of the legs is uneven. You might end up thrown away.

 

And yes, there is no way for borgs to "die" and they have to ghost. A bit weird, and should be fixed, somehow. But an admin can always find a way to put your ghost back inside if you do start to get fixed, so I suggest ghosting if you have any reason to believe you aren't going to be touched. It can really give you insight onto why you were killed in the first place.

 

TL;DR You've chosen to play property, and ICly people aren't really obligated to share their plans with property. As fellow players, people sometimes try, but it comes with the gig. Continue to ahelp questionable things, by all means, but a borg really doesn't have the same options as an organic or IPC.

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49 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

Borgs don't have morality systems or reasoning

49 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

There is no "I was forced to!" or "It was an accident!"

Pretty sure these are incorrect. Cyborgs can have morality systems, but laws take priority. And accidents are unavoidable, I don't understand how this isn't a reasonable excuse.

52 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

So obviously, you take it to a toaster fixer. But obviously, players would object to being flashed and dragged to robotics without a word. But is it right to ask defective equipment, literally property, to go get fixed? As players, we feel like we have to. But honestly, it's much easier to drag it by its nuts (and bolts). ICly, there is nothing wrong with that course of action.

Gotta hard disagree on this.

Of course it's right to ask a synth to get repaired. Robots/androids/cyborgs don't fail often in-universe. There's a huge leap between "this robot violated this law" and "this robot will refuse to obey any commands, so should be dealt with violently", both ICly and OOCly.

Cyborgs, androids, and robots are made of steel. They're big, and represented in a variety of different ways, many of which being easily human sized. That's very difficult for a person to just move, especially on their own, and especially when it's powered down. It would be much easier to just tell it to move itself, unless you have a compelling reason to believe that it would not only disobey but be a risk for you to order it to obey ICly.

And ICly, yes, there is plenty wrong with that course of action. Flashing a robot/cyborg/android is literally overloading them, trying to do temporary damage in order to get it under control. You don't know that's going to be 100% reliable ICly. Cyborgs have literal brains inside of them- what does that mean for them, that you're blinding a real person repeatedly without knowing for a fact there's a dangerous issue? 

 

But, ultimately, forget IC rights. Killing a cyborg is generally the end of a roleplay path rather than an intermediary step, and thus you owe the person you're killing a little bit of interaction unless it's totally unavoidable.
If you really believe they're an antagonist, and your first reaction is to kill them without talking, emoting, or looking for any other kind of solutions, mobbing them with simple tools, you're literally trying to immediately take out the antagonist without letting them build a story. That's such, such, such poor play.

I don't know how much of an epidemic this issue is, but the raised case in the OP definitely seems shady, unless there's additional info that needs to be relayed.

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14 minutes ago, Ornias said:

Pretty sure these are incorrect. Cyborgs can have morality systems, but laws take priority. And accidents are unavoidable, I don't understand how this isn't a reasonable excuse.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression cyborgs were completely lobotomized. They don't remember, they don't think, they aren't human, and they don't have concept of morality anymore. The brain was just used as a storage or processor. Accidents unrelated to a borg's functioning are fine. But there's a difference. A player can make a mistake and have an accident, but a borg being responsible for an accident deserves scrutiny ICly.

"Telecomms exploded, how did it happen?"
"It was an accident."
"... Mm. What happened exactly?"
"I made a mistake. I ((some understandable action))."
 

That would be a human response. ICly, that sort of mistake isn't one that should conceivably happen, if a borg is functioning correctly. OOCly, we would probably know that mistakes can be made and let it go. But there would always be the doubt there. Obviously just because you are playing a machine doesn't mean you should be literally perfect, but in my opinion, it's good RP to forgo "I made a mistake" or "I accidentally pulled the trigger" and try to explain it as unforeseen failings unrelated to self. There's a slight difference there, it feels better if it can be explained away as some kind of anomaly rather than the conscious thought of "the person playing the borg fucked up understandably, now we should blame it on something else so we stop having this uncomfortable conversation that is reaching slight meta proportions". Just cuts out the middle man a tiny bit.

 

19 minutes ago, Ornias said:

Of course it's right to ask a synth to get repaired. Robots/androids/cyborgs don't fail often in-universe. There's a huge leap between "this robot violated this law" and "this robot will refuse to obey any commands, so should be dealt with violently", both ICly and OOCly.

Cyborgs, androids, and robots are made of steel. They're big, and represented in a variety of different ways, many of which being easily human sized. That's very difficult for a person to just move, especially on their own, and especially when it's powered down. It would be much easier to just tell it to move itself, unless you have a compelling reason to believe that it would not only disobey but be a risk for you to order it to obey ICly.

"If it has blatantly violated one law, what is stopping it from violating another?" would not be unreasonable to think. Following commands is a law, "Serve". Getting repaired is also a law, "Preserve". Yes, asking it to go is easier, but can't always be done if it becomes urgent and there's no time to speak before it keeps on doing its thing. Sometimes, taking it to robotics and telling it to stay for repairs can be reasonable.

 

4 minutes ago, Ornias said:

And ICly, yes, there is plenty wrong with that course of action. Flashing a robot/cyborg/android is literally overloading them, trying to do temporary damage in order to get it under control. You don't know that's going to be 100% reliable ICly. Cyborgs have literal brains inside of them- what does that mean for them, that you're blinding a real person repeatedly without knowing for a fact there's a dangerous issue? 

Unlike Vaurca, there is no reason to believe there's any sort of repercussion at all. If there is, there should be a mechanic added backing that up. As far as we can tell, it forces their system into reboot. I imagine it's like the power flickering but your computer is plugged into a surge protector. The computer restarts itself, but that's ultimate the end of it.

 

7 minutes ago, Ornias said:

But, ultimately, forget IC rights. Killing a cyborg is generally the end of a roleplay path rather than an intermediary step, and thus you owe the person you're killing a little bit of interaction unless it's totally unavoidable.
If you really believe they're an antagonist, and your first reaction is to kill them without talking, emoting, or looking for any other kind of solutions, mobbing them with simple tools, you're literally trying to immediately take out the antagonist without letting them build a story. That's such, such, such poor play.

And that's what I mean by "as players, we feel we have to." Doing so is the right course of action. But that doesn't mean it is always the only course of action. Unlike a human traitor, borg traitors can't really be reasonably stopped. They are at least 10x scarier, because you never know if the problem is an ion law or the AI or someone touched the borg when they shouldn't have, and that borg has access to nearly everything on board. I know I'm pretty laissez faire in my roleplay and just kind of let things flow, whatever the story, so long as there is a story, and not everyone is that way. But dying, to me, can push a story as long as it's ICly believable. The case the OP presented doesn't, at first glance, seem to have anything to do with any sort of story. But... we aren't told the reason the borg was attacked. The borg may not have been exposed to the RP before death, but that doesn't mean the RP wasn't there. I'd like to know more, personally. It sounds like the hook of some kind of mystery novel, before it flashes back explaining why the borg had to die.

 

It is incredibly easy to shut down a borg. All you need is a flash and something with some oomph. It is not incredibly easy to have a good chat with a borg without putting yourself or others in undue danger when you could shut it down and not have people possibly hurt. Do I personally think that is right? No. There should be more options. Going for the kill should be as big of a leap as any crewmember, rather than one of two options (kill it or take it to robotics). But this is the state stationbounds are in. The state of property. Whether they need a buff or not is up to the community, but it may not be out-of-place to suggest some improvements over in the suggestion board. I've seen something suggested like flash protection for traitorborgs before, I think. I think it may be better to have some kind of light-EMP disarming tool that keeps the borg conscious but temporarily unable to interface or use tools. But when something like that is added, it gets really restricted (see: ion rifle) and that's unfortunate.

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6 hours ago, Conspiir said:

And yes, there is no way for borgs to "die" and they have to ghost. A bit weird, and should be fixed, somehow.

This is incorrect. The issue is that borgs have a HUGE healthpool, so what you are experiencing is hard crit due to your cell being destroyed.

So the experience is the same for borgs with their cells destroyed same as someone with 150+ damage. You cant wake up and you're just unable to do shit.

Borgs are very much killable, but to actually get that done, people will frown on you icly for going absolute overkill, pounding on the borg for a few minutes until it dies properly.

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I played a lot of Borg and have not really been destroyed without reasons before, but at a few occasion I've been locked down and left alone in a corner for the rest of the round (one of these time after 20 minutes in the round)

But there is something I realized about law changes that for sure don't help any cyborgs, is that unless the added law is inoffensive (ex: Do not use the "e" letter and always yell at people), there is pretty much always a "Do not show this law" added. 

We could talk about playing roles correctly and all that stuff around it, but want it or not, people playing security know that you can't trust a law statement and with only circumstantial evidences will have more chances to consider the Cyborg corrupted than not. I think that without solving everything, reviewing that system could help the situation. 

For example, Cyborg should not be able to toggle which law they are showing (all "on" by default), but to reduce a little the difficulty to detect them could only state them on loud speakers and not on radio channels. 

But as other said, playing Cyborg, even if you are an other player, is also to accept that you are playing something that will have for some people about the same value as a fancy home appliance. So there won't be a fair treatment to them in any way, and you will probably get flashed or locked under simple suspicions. But I agree that there should be a minimum of interaction before just barging in a room and blowing one up (unless it's openly hostile).

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@Conspiir

You mostly seem to be speaking from the point of "If the Borg is confirmed hostile, kill it!" Which I agree with. If there's a robot spinning it's head and screaming WEEWOO WEEWOO BEING ALIVE IS HUMAN HARM while coming at you with a circular saw, there's not exactly room for RP. Same as if someone was rushing you down with an esword, you pull out a weapon and fight.

The issue being raised here is how cyborg murder is the first reaction to *suspicion.* It's like if the detective's go-to move was to stab someone in the hall and read their entrails to determine if they did crime. If you think an unarmed human did a crime, you ask them what happened. If you think a nonhostile cyborg did a crime, you should ask it too, not wordlessly murder it.

I also updated the situation in the OP a bit to have as much information as I could gather from asking the players involved, but unfortunately that's not a ton.

Also; so far as I recall, cyborging a brain lobotomizes it, but doesn't make it only a processor, simply removes the personality that was once there. Another one can take it's place over time. Different borgs can also place different priority on different laws when they're not rigidly structured. Basically; even if they're only tools IC, they're tools with thoughts and personalities and decision-making skills. Asking a robot who you think did a bad to follow you to robotics might work, even if you know they did a bad, due to the way their laws/personal law priority are structured.

...and if they raise a saw and scream WEEWOO WEEWOO when you ask them to go to robotics, that's when you flash and attempt to detain/kill them. Not before.

Edited by Curt
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I can somewhat see this. The other day we had MOIS building grilles in the main hallway towards red dock. Stupidly. Easy. To. Remove. Grilles. In fact, I did remove them almost instantly (because I was an engineer and wirecutters are the BANE of grilles existence, instantly.)

But MOIS was flashed (perfectly fine) and then BEATEN TO DEATH BY THE DETECTIVE... with a LASER RIFLE of all fucking things.

No real RP behind it. Just "flash, BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT".

Mois did less harm than a greyshit with a toolbox, yet they were promptly removed from the game with little to no RP just because a detective decided today was going to be the day they show their psychopathic tendencies.

It makes no sense. Yes, they RP property, but how difficult is it to give the player a bit of RP when they're clearly "acting out" in a way that doesn't harm crew and yet shows a little malf-y nature? At what point do we stop valid'ing any borg that mechanically sneezes the wrong way?

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7 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

I can somewhat see this. The other day we had MOIS building grilles in the main hallway towards red dock. Stupidly. Easy. To. Remove. Grilles. In fact, I did remove them almost instantly (because I was an engineer and wirecutters are the BANE of grilles existence, instantly.)

But MOIS was flashed (perfectly fine) and then BEATEN TO DEATH BY THE DETECTIVE... with a LASER RIFLE of all fucking things.

No real RP behind it. Just "flash, BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT BEAT".

Mois did less harm than a greyshit with a toolbox, yet they were promptly removed from the game with little to no RP just because a detective decided today was going to be the day they show their psychopathic tendencies.

It makes no sense. Yes, they RP property, but how difficult is it to give the player a bit of RP when they're clearly "acting out" in a way that doesn't harm crew and yet shows a little malf-y nature? At what point do we stop valid'ing any borg that mechanically sneezes the wrong way?

I was sec during that round, and when I tried to speak to the borgie the detective instantly flashed it and shot it to death. I agree that it wasn't the good mindset. But my character was ICly too lazy to deal with that after a 3 hours shift chasing after terrorist. 

But yes, most of the time I play malf borg or even traitor, I get shot down pretty easily. Even if I don't harm people and just act out of the line, sometimes I would get instantly EMP'd without any ways to return, since I'm either left in a corner or even dropped in disposal. People tends to forget that borgs are players as well.

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I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who's experienced this, and not the only one who seems to think it should be changed.

So, how does that happen? I'm new to Aurora's community. Every time this sort of thing has happened, it's been declared a-OK by any admins it's reported to. How does that get changed?

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On 26/05/2019 at 20:01, Curt said:

Telecomms has been bombed. Naturally, Security checks the cameras, and sees an engineering borg surveying the damages. When the engineering borg tracks down an officer to tell them that shit's been bombed, the borg is wordlessly flashed and beaten to death by three people because someone said "I think it bombed telecomms!" It wakes up halfway through, asks "Why? What are you doing?" a few times while they continue to murder it, attempts to flee, and then it dies. The chassis is left in the hall.

Sounds pretty horrible to me. If this was oked by an administrator this seems kind of suspect to me. It is certainly possible i am missing critical information here. A staff complaint could resolve this. 

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@Garnascus

Unfortunately, I don't believe it's a problem that can be solved by rebuking one admin. While no circumstance is exactly the same, I've experienced multiple occasions of the kind of treatment I laid out in the OP, spoken with multiple admins, and received "Yeah that wordless murder was fine" from them all. It requires a change in policy, from what I can tell.

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12 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Sounds pretty horrible to me. If this was oked by an administrator this seems kind of suspect to me. It is certainly possible i am missing critical information here. A staff complaint could resolve this. 

You are missing critical information, I was the person that attacked the cyborg and had security also do so. I was bwoinked over it by Alberyk, after which he wordlessly closed my ticket after reading my response - I was not given a warning or any indication I was noted.

We were tipped off by a second cyborg, that the OP's cyborg had blown up telecommunciations with welder fuel tanks, we checked the cameras and determined this to be true as we caught them damaging solars and not fixing any of the damages in telecoms. We then caught the same cyborg on camera in science, and conveniently at that time robotics had been filled with fuel and a fuel tank was sitting in the middle. It was highly suspect.  OP's cyborg had been ratted out by a Co-Traitor Cyborg, 'MOIS', which led to us catching it. The reason it was jumped on was to stop it from distracting us and then possibly setting robotics ablaze. 

EDIT: ICly, you were told during your beating that we caught you on cameras and that we knew you had blown up telecommunications and had fueled up robotics. 

Immediately after this incident, we checked on MOIS camera and caught him destroying the vault - we had no reason to recover you from the hall, or repair you - as we in security cannot possibly hope to know how to resync you to the proper lawset. Then the bridge was attacked by other traitors and the Captain was kidnapped and you stopped being a priority for us.

Edited by Azande
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Furthermore, we have a console in the bridge and RD Office that faciliates the instant destruction of any cyborg anywhere on board if they aren't properly malf or subverted. This reinforces ICly the sense that it's okay to just attack and destroy broken cyborgs. Perhaps these consoles need to be changed/removed if we act on this thread.

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@Aphelion

They cannot.

@Azande

Thanks for filling in more information- though if you tried to tell me anything while you were killing me, it was lost between flash-stuns, hits to components stunning me (or just more flashing, I'm not sure), and the general combat log mess of it all. The general issue here is still just that murder seemed to be your first and last resort- and that it's everyone's first and last resort when dealing with a borg- even if the borg isn't actively trying to kill anyone- and that all the admins I've spoken with appear to deem that as perfectly fine. It's inconsiderate to other players, especially when Security (and all heads of staff) are specifically given a tool that can essentially hard-stun a robot in near perpetuity. Even if a borg is as rogue as rogue can be, a security officer glaring at it and putting a flash to it's head while interrogating it is a good deterrent. And, of course, if it turns to smack the officer with whatever tool it can? Flash, beatbeatbeatdead.

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You know, I'm glad this is posted. To be honest I did a bad today dumping a borg after letting a previous round influence my decision effect my decision on how to deal with a borg. More awareness should be brought to this.

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Before playing as IPC I played almost exclusively as a borg, and this has happened to me more times than I can count. I recently did a player complaint about a similar issue. It really is a double standard that needs to be addressed.

Even if you try and justify it as it just being a machine and your character sees no value in it, your employer would. If someone working at a company had a piece of malfunctioning equipment worth a large sum of money, you wouldn't just annihilate it, you would attempt to salvage it in some way. 

It is obviously different if the machine has killed someone or is openly hostile, but your suspicion isn't enough to dismantle it.

Just to be clear, I do not think anyone is saying bashing a borg into tiny pieces is off the table entirely, but if it is the first thing you go to, it isn't the right choice. There have been so many times when my borgs are malfunctioning, and doing weird stuff, and people decide to destroy it without even attempting to communicate or ask the machine to report to robotics, or to state laws, ect. 

Just like with a non-borg character, murderboning as the first option in any situation is not allowed, it needs to extend to borg players as well.

Edited by StationCrab
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Here is my overall opinion on the matter: Yes, borgs are property and will get less leeway than others, but I feel that immediately putting someone out of the round in a manner that is usually annoying by itself is unfair to the person playing oocly. I feel the best way to solve this is expansion of ooc rules regarding the destruction of borgs, and to have wordlessly killing a borg immediately be punishable, or something similar.

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