Alberyk Posted October 26, 2019 Posted October 26, 2019 This pr removes bluespace echoes: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7239 Why they should be removed: -overly punishing mechanic that was an attempt to nerf/balance telescience, alongside with the explosions -really unreliable to revert, unlike in old telescience -does not create any roleplay at all, since the echo can not properly communicate besides repeating words -really lame when it happens due to accidental teleportation, I have seen random people and ninjas being turned into those due to teleportation not related to telescience, it is really impossible to go back to your body after this -there is no way to revert this without using teleportation that somehow has to land right on the top of an empty body, which is not really easy with portals or anything else -barely explored and explained lore-wise, without even considering the implications that this stuff would cause, like body switching and the comproved existence of souls -most of the echo powers are really bad, and cause a lot of explosions when used due to how teleporation works Overall, I do not think they add anything of value to the round, they are just another failed attempt to nerf telescience without solving its main issues, and that is why I want to remove them.
Pratepresidenten Posted October 26, 2019 Posted October 26, 2019 Big agree. BEs are just explosive amounts of dumb
MoondancerPony Posted October 26, 2019 Posted October 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, Alberyk said: -overly punishing mechanic that was an attempt to nerf/balance telescience, alongside with the explosions It is not overly punishing at all, and I'd say it's proportional. At least in old telescience, they were rather difficult to make; they should now be even more difficult to make unintentionally given that portals use safepick, meaning they should only choose unoccupied turfs adjacent to the portal unless there are none. 17 minutes ago, Alberyk said: -really unreliable to revert, unlike in old telescience This is also not true, but even if it were, this seems more like an argument to revert it back to old telescience. You can revert them by constructing walls on all sides of the telepad but one, so that the echo MUST go into the unoccupied turf when it goes back. Additionally, they were even harder to revert in old telescience as you had to wait for them to get on the pad, whereas now they can just go back in through the portal. 18 minutes ago, Alberyk said: -does not create any roleplay at all, since the echo can not properly communicate besides repeating words This is an issue but it is easier to fix than just outright removing them. I believe it was in fact a bug from Fowl's original implementation. An easy method would be to give them a memory of words said within their lifetime. 19 minutes ago, Alberyk said: -really lame when it happens due to accidental teleportation, I have seen random people and ninjas being turned into those due to teleportation not related to telescience, it is really impossible to go back to your body after this It should be impossible for this to happen to ninjas except when teleporting into restricted areas like the vault. Normally you can only teleport into unoccupied turfs. This is just an argument to revert the bluespace disruptor PR. 20 minutes ago, Alberyk said: -there is no way to revert this without using teleportation that somehow has to land right on the top of an empty body, which is not really easy with portals or anything else As I said already, it's definitely possible with portals and easier with old telescience. 20 minutes ago, Alberyk said: -barely explored and explained lore-wise, without even considering the implications that this stuff would cause, like body switching and the comproved existence of souls @ParadoxSpace was writing lore on bluespace with me at one point, and with his permission I'd gladly post the lore that explained not just echoes but also teleportation as a whole. Additionally, it doesn't prove that souls exist unless you believe that bluespace echoes are souls, for which there is no scientific evidence. Body switching is also highly experimental and dangerous and the people who did the original experiment almost got in a lot of trouble ICly for it. 22 minutes ago, Alberyk said: -most of the echo powers are really bad, and cause a lot of explosions when used due to how teleporation works I agree. The random teleport powers are bad. They'd function fine without them. 22 minutes ago, Alberyk said: Overall, I do not think they add anything of value to the round, they are just another failed attempt to nerf telescience without solving its main issues, and that is why I want to remove them. This is highly subjective. The biggest issues with them were introduced with portals, anyway.
AmoryBlaine Posted October 26, 2019 Posted October 26, 2019 With my limited understanding and experience with them, I would say remove it, please. Every time I hear or see them, it's because whoever it happened to is now blowing up shit while flying around spamming chat or something. But, if Moon thinks they should stay, that works too since they know more.
Snakebittenn Posted October 26, 2019 Posted October 26, 2019 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oIi64lLS3etxONTKGLHa-RQdlE49lzbJgLI5BMmLV6I/edit?usp=sharing re; the lore moondancer was talking about Anyway, no to this. There's much better solutions, such as making the portal exact instead of adjacent. It's also kind of weird that they worked better before, and your complaints are due to a PR that /you/ made. Most of this is things that your PR changed, that you did not account for.
VUX Posted October 26, 2019 Posted October 26, 2019 Honestly, it seems like overkill to just nuke the whole feature. At least echoes let you keep playing in the unlikely event that you end up teleported into a wall.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) I really like echoes. They are a neat feature that really makes bluespace and telescience have a rare, but very interesting mechanic. They also have a unique interaction with unathi when possessing them that I'd hate to see go. It really would be better if they were made to be less of a punishment. Edited October 27, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix
Arcbot1 Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 I'm on the side of science here, they shouldn't be removed outright, if it's lame or abused by people then change or remove some of the abilities, no need to take something so interesting out entirely. Just my 2 cents though.
Nantei Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 Seconding Moon's opinion. I would rather they were expanded on and improved. As a mystery aspect of telescience, I have always found them extremely cool.
Peppermint Posted November 16, 2019 Posted November 16, 2019 Please remove them. Pretty please? Double pretty please? They make no sense and are super darn annoying.
Carver Posted November 16, 2019 Posted November 16, 2019 The only time I encountered one of these I thought it was some antag's half-assed bombing attempt. A very strange feature overall.
geeves Posted November 16, 2019 Posted November 16, 2019 I support removing this feature, it turns a telescience accident into a buggy mess. Teleporting is already criminally underused, and being able to be yeeted out of a round due to RNG isn't fun in the slightest. Not only that, but it doesn't make any sense to me at all. Merge bluespace echoes with the meme gametype or something.
SatinsPristOTD Posted November 16, 2019 Posted November 16, 2019 I'm in favor of removing them until they can be re-worked and when the lore for them can be dropped on the wiki for the public. As of right now, Echo's honestly annoy the hell out of me, and I get to the extent where I just stop caring. The random explosions don't really add anything but a grinder for Engineering to suffer through while the rest of the station is ALSO on fire. Furthermore, while Telescience is still largely unknown, the sweet spot gimmick of fixing an echo irks me for reasons I can't quite explain. It just feels poorly done. We argue that Science is underplayed, and that it gets boring, yet we have a "nerf" to something that is now rarely touched at all. At some point, if your nerf actually harms the thing it's nerfing to the extent it becomes un-used, then the nerf needs to be reworked.
MattAtlas Posted November 16, 2019 Posted November 16, 2019 Seconding the removal for reasons already stated. I'm not sure they accomplish anything currently. Nor are they ever actually used to how hard it is.
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