Remove Cargonia

[Cnaym]

As the title says. No problem with cargo. It serves a function, it promotes RP, it creates jobs for those without a doctor title.

Cargonia: Everyone knows how to handle guns, tactical armor, do surgery and hack everything from a door to an AI.

How to go about it:

1. Remove all weapons from the menu. Better yet, lock them behind a command access. Same as Robotics and R&D. People cannot be trusted with handling the thing ICly, make it a wall OOCly. That means in an emergency the AI, Captain, Command or Interims can still order guns and armor. It also removes the Quartermasters from playing James Bond all round.
2. Remove Quartermaster. I considered this for a really long time now. They don't serve a purpose, except of being the hideout for people who will not get a command whitelist and are not yet banned. Honestly though, any QM that is interested in HRP instead of unga, will work the same way as cargo tech as they do as QM. Most of them indeed have in the past and chose the promotion ICly because it made sense. I strongly suggest them to apply for the command whitelist instead.
3. Stop teaching the mindset to new players. The removal of the QM would do a ton towards this since head of personnel players are a lot more helpful and have understood how to RP a chracter that cares for more then guns, the cargo account, the next code blue and so on.. I honestly don't want to bwoink people over falling into this trap. New players tend to try out cargo tech as they do not have much responsibility. The Quartermaster (Cargonia mentality, also a new player 9/10 times) tells them the following: "Keep the good stuff, send out the useless stuff, sec all suck, we can order guns." That is against our rules. If you play cargo to grab the best stuff for yourself and wait for blue to order a ton of guns, staff will have to handle it. If you are teaching this to new players, you are doing a lot more damage.
4. Remove the KAs, or at least make them do zero damage. They are not needed for a miner and actively ruin the part of it that involves finding things apart from random crates, that get opened and then ignored unless it has a weapon in it. You strip yourself of any and all artifacts you might find by using them, you absolutely powergame blobs with them instead of having departments work together to figure things out and handle it. This is not an issue with the tool itself, but how it affects the roleplay environment.
5. Report the shitty mindset if you want to focus on RP instead. Ahelp the cargo person with a sniper rifle in tactical armor. Ahelp the quartermaster running around in a hardsuit. The biggest issue here is that it does not get reported and instead the same three people applaud each other in LooC about how badass they are. I know it's a pain in the ass to deal with them all round, but if you are part of the community that takes issue with how it goes currently, take the active steps to help us sort it out instead of jumping into cryo. You may only get a note for hacking something the first time, it won't stay at a note if you report the people for doing it every round. It's the part where we really need the help of the community at large, because none of us can observe a department for hours.

Now this might be a loaded topic and I get that a lot of people see a lot of different things in cargo. But the people focused on roleplaying a believable character tend to cryo sooner than deal with this, which leads to a lot of them not even joining the department anymore and that's a sad state really. I'd like to see a lot of improvements to the department and it's function overall, like the ability to order more useful things and removing them from the autolathe for example. Basic stuff like buckets, mops, maybe more parts for engineering. The current state I see cargo in from round to round is that they get the usual 2-3 round start orders from robotics and chemistry and then have to wait until something happens, with the people invested in their character going to every door to RP, while the rest simply drops of crates with all time favorites like "Here's your shit." and then sit in the lobby or break room until finally code blue time starts.

I made this entire post without putting in names, because they honestly do not matter. It's always the new person, it's always either the go somewhere else and improve or get removed, it's always a lengthy progress with a ton of salt involved. If after reading this you think what a bunch of bullshit, I will still thank you for the time invested. If you wonder next time whether or not a sniper rifle or two will really improve the round, than this post has already started a healthy thought process.

 

[Zundy]

What triggered this? Is cargo really that bad for it?

[Cnaym]

I'd blame the mindset that some bring onto the server, maybe from other servers, for making cargo as it is right now really unfit towards the goal of creating an HRP environment.

The spiral of new player, teaching newer player how to not roleplay is rather obvious in that department.

[Gangstafary]

Well, QM's usually working, delivering and whatnot. Guns shouldn't be able to be requested by any cargo tech, I agree on that it's obvious. Excessive skill knowledge can be ahelped. KAs shouldn't be used as a weapon unless someone's antag, in which case it's a really poor weapon choice. Either way it's ahelpable.

If I understand this well, the suggestion is not about removing a department (Cargo) but about removing an attitude (Cargonia), which is pretty much already ahelpable and contemplated under the rules, minus the weapons part in which I agree.
 

[Seeli]

1. Yes. +1 Locking weapons behind command/interim/AI access.
2. Could make Quartermaster a whitelisted role.
3. Yes, please. Please please please. No more "cargonia rises!" taught to new players.
4. -1 removing KAs, as there is very little RP on the rock and KAs let miners do their jobs quick if they want and come back inside to rp. They can do it slower with other tools, but the KAs make it quick and satisfying.
5. I got tired of ahelping cargo for their behavior/excessive skills/gun toting validhunting, and even more tired of being the least liked CT when I did not do the same. I felt like I was always the bad guy or pestering admin, neither of which I liked doing, so I stopped playing Khas'miera.

& Instead of guns, perhaps let cargo order useful things for the station, like materials. Increase the amount ordered for some things (a SINGLE chicken for 200 when a normal spawned crate comes with multiple). What about ready to cook carp meat (ie no carpotoxin in it)? Or more medicines?

[Aphelion]

The side of cargonia that is "Hahah funny clowme QM I do a meme" is kinda dumb and needs to go.

Tactical armor and weapons and stuff should be buckled down on more

Cargonia arming themselves up in the event of a crisis adds a layer of realism that is quite nice. Not that they should genk and validhunt, but becoming roof-koreans adds to a round more often than not, while providing another layer of conflict, in my opinion. It's also all cargo can essentially do in a crisis other than sit around with their thumbs up their ass doing nothing at all or crying for an hour and a half because they are in mortal danger and have no way at all to handle it.

I think people who don't RP it well should be spoken to and consequences should be had, but aggressively disarming every department where it isn't necessary to have weapons is just silly.

I'd be down with removing QM, at least. Because the QM totally adds to it all, not caring at best, actually being an asshat who shows people how to do crime at worst. If it were the HoP who was responsible for what Cargo was doing, it would also add something for the HoP to actually do instead of more often than not amounting to some fusion of Secretary and Accountant.

[Hendricks]

I don’t know much about Cargo. But in my little experience I’ve never seen KA’s used as weapons. Also gun crates you can order need a head ID to unlock. So if anyone uses KA’s to get around that ahelp it. As for mindset in Cargo it is true there are a lot of newbies and shitters. But from what I’ve seen most people actually play relatively good characters. You occasionally get the idiots and they more often then not just Cryo. 

[DeadLantern]

 It should not be cargo that is punished, but the bad players. Can't one just complain about these bad cargo players and ban them from cargo/the server? I don't understand how this is a problem for Cargo itself.

Edited January 14, 2020 by DeadLantern

[Cnaym]

2 minutes ago, Hendricks said:

So if anyone uses KA’s to get around that ahelp it.

That is not breaking a rule, for example. Antique sniper rifles even come without a lock, so the cargo techs get something to shoot, too.

The KA might not be used as a weapon against people as much anymore, but it is used a lot to threaten people, bully mobs in seconds or get rid of hivebots.

1 minute ago, DeadLantern said:

 It should not be cargo that is punished, but the bad players.

 That is why I was so specific with the removal Ideas. Cargo can still build a lot of selfmade stuff for defense, I do not have an issue with that. What I don't want to see is classes on how to build crossbows in maint while the extendo round just started, only to see three cargo techs running around in tactical armor because someone stole a tip jar later that round.

We had a similar situation with R&D and Robotics, where roboticists were simply mind boogled by the concept of cooperation instead of powergaming. There is now a hard lock in place, which makes it easier for new players to not mess up, for staff to handle the situations (that have been almost reduced to 0) and for old players unsure of what is allowed and what not.

The idea is that someone who is trusted, keeps an eye on the department and gun orders, makes sure they arrive at security and so on. Right now every assistant can ask for a job in cargo and end their shift with a couple guns in their backpack without doing a single line of RP or working even a minute in cargo, which is honestly mind baffling to me.

[Peppermint]

I don't agree with a lot of it, (especially the removal of KAs, please don't suck all the fun out of mining) but I am 100% on the same page with the QM role. It really feels like what people go to if they don't have a whitelist and want to cause trouble. Cargo arming themselves if there's a legit threat is fine by me, but some of the QMs really take this to new levels to be shitters. Which is a shame, as two very good ones come to mind too (Nat and Mackenzie). Sick of dealing with 'oh, the QM is ordering guns' every time certain other ones are in control.

[Cnaym]

11 minutes ago, Lemei said:

especially the removal of KAs, please don't suck all the fun out of mining

The ones used for mining are not my problem (that being the average medium meteor combo) because it is a shortcut towards staying inside for RP and I don't see any issue with that. The validhunter boomstick of tactical and experimental core has no place in the actual mining work though and is 9/10 used to chip away at the antags, walls or crates.

Again, the changes are not set in stone, nor am I a coder, but I think we really need a productive talk about how to fix this mess.

[Zundy]

1. Yes, they should be locked away.

2. Nah it's a cool role, whitelist it tho.

3. Resolved by having a whitelisted QM to properly educate.

4. Keep KAs, ahelp if people use them inappropriately. Crates should probably be removed anyway? Replace them with something that requires like sci to crack open.

5. Getting people to ahelp is always hard tbh due to what coalf said and the perceived lack of action against whoever is being a naughty boy/because sometimes it just doesn't seem "bad enough".

[ordinal]

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Edited January 14, 2020 by ordinal

[FreshRefreshments]

I agree with some, not with others. I don't think QM should be whitelisted, I don't think KAs should be removed.

However, Cargo arming up should be a contextual thing. Are they arming up because Security is acting really funky and they've got terrible vibes? Or are they arming up to go hunt down the Wizard who they watched turn into a skeleton? It even allows some cargo techs to get some nice fear-RP with one another about genuinely being forced to gun down Security if they come after Cargo. I wouldn't take away that much. 

And on the matter of meme QMs, they should be cracked down on. Thats more a matter of other people reporting it, rather than a problem with the role. 

The Chaplain Role invites a lot of shitters, but sometimes you just get shitters. It wouldn't be worth removing the role for people who use it.

[Cnaym]

3 minutes ago, FreshRefreshments said:

The Chaplain Role invites a lot of shitters, but sometimes you just get shitters. It wouldn't be worth removing the role for people who use it.

The difference would be that the chaplin does usually end up brigged or banned before they teach new people how to fight with the staff.

4 minutes ago, FreshRefreshments said:

However, Cargo arming up should be a contextual thing.

100% agree. I would like to see a cap to it though. Having better equipment than security does not make sense to me at all.

 

Zundy & Ordinal: I'd support a whitelist for the job, the same as command has really. The responsibility part is the one that's important to me, the CT can do the same as the QM, the HoP can do a lot more + has a whitelist already. That is my point for removing the role, since to me it seems a little redundant. Having an HoP pick a lead CT from the ones they have  would make it a lot fairer overall, instead of rolling a dice on which boss you get today.

KAs have been a meme for over half a year now. There is really only two builds that are used, the rest is for people who have RP reasons to pick anything else. The idea of making the different modules more different is a good one, maybe get rid of the KA bloat instead of the KAs itself. That being said, having a lot less materials might lead to science valuing them more instead of handing out nanopaste like it's candy.

About point three: I am fully aware that not every round a new player get's ICly told to keep the good stuff and gank antags with it. I am also aware of cargo having three fireaxes in the warehouse, and the usual "it is not contraband in there" excuse for all kinds of chemicals and guns (which is also bullshit, the job is to send the stuff out, not keep it in there). The amount of QMs and CTs breaking boxes inside it, hiding a gun in there and so on is just too high. I have nothing against the mining squad with pickaxes and spears defending the doors. The issue is that tools are gathered over the entire round, before anything even happened, with the sole purpose of cargonia stronk, which makes it cancerous for others to play in.

I also pick on the cargo techs and QMs here, because the miners are usually the people earning the credits for the department, just to see everyone carry a sniper rifle 30 minutes later. Not really how a workplace should work, nor in the spirit of keeping said job. There is the usual realism vs. gameplay argument, but if you sign up to haul crates you should not demand to have much action in the gameplay. It still happens sometimes due roundtype, which again is more than okay. It should just not be the default hope that you can live out the action hero because you wear orange.

Just going to insert a thank you to all who posted here. It's useful to gather some opinions and I really enjoy the ideas put forward. I was prepared to catch a lot of salt, but this way it's far more productive ?

 

[Arrow768]

I'll work on that when I have a bit more time. 

[Doxxmedearly]

Removal of the QM seems like an odd take here. I've experienced more quality QMs who keep the department on track more than I've experienced shittery. Whitelist it is... weird, too. It's not command and doesn't have the same responsibilities of it. It's also a great stepping stone for those who are looking to make a command whitelist. As Fresh said; sometimes a role gets shitters. If we removed roles based on shitters, we'd no longer have roles for  ISD, assistants, janitors, chefs, chemists.... I'm not sure what QMs you've seen playing James Bond but I feel like this isn't the norm. I've seen shitters but mostly the QMs I've seen over almost two years have been pretty good, especially in the last few months. 

KA damage to players can be nerfed, and probably should.

A lot of issues with "cargonia" are centered around arming up, I agree, but I feel like this is more of a player mindset issue than a department one; engineering has the exact same "An antag was mentioned, fortify" mindset in my experience. This is less of a mechanical issue and more of a player one. Whether it's the desire to win, fear of loss, or excitement at finally getting to use a weapon, I notice that for many, fearRP and reasonable characters go out the window when shit's really hit the fan. Will stopping cargo from ordering guns stop this? Not really. Everyone and their mother apparently learned spearcrafting as a child, so you'll just have the same behavior with different tools.

And I know it's HARD to say no when the group's riled up and weapons are distributed and there's the promise of action after command probably told you to stay in your department forever... but you have to try not to get swept up in it and stick to character. Pick up that gun, but if you don't know how to use it, or you're a coward, or you're not comfortable with KILLING A PERSON (Having a weapon and using it are wildly different concepts)... rp that. And if you see bad behavior, even in your department group or IC/OOC friends, you gotta, gotta, gotta ahelp. Things do add up, even if it doesn't seem like you've accomplished anything.

You can put up as many barriers as you want but powergaming behavior has to be stopped at the player or else they will always find a way. 

But I do hear what people are saying here with their experiences; there are plenty of people who get MAD if you don't powergame or break character FOR them. Can't hack the lathe? Urist McOfficer pitches a fit. Won't order weapons as QM? Get badgered ICly and LOOCly by cargo. Say you don't know how to use a RIG or Voidsuit? Frustration. Aren't a master at every single thing as a head? Get told you shouldn't have a WL. I caught a lot of shit in engineering when I questioned people making weapons or fortifying at the first sign of antaggery, and refused every weapon handed to me. My HoP didn't make any friends when I wasn't a cargo militia leader. If you're one of these people who get mad at others for not facilitating your spotlight, do everyone a favor and re-evaluate if HRP is for you. I really don't know if there's a solution to this other than a large player effort to shift the server culture into standing your ground against these people. 

But I don't hate cargo being able to order weapons. Good players do great RP with it; hold onto a gun for that secure feeling but never using it, the fear of knowing ISD can't help you and that your life is in your hands, the panic of knowing you might be forced to kill someone, etc. And I really don't feel this validy mindset is specific to cargo. Powergamers will powergame and good RPers will make anything fun and reasonable. 

If I were to suggest mechanical changes to curb this issue, the list would prrrrobably be:

-Longer playtime age restrictions on QM

-Maybe lock guns behind QM, Head, and AI access. I don't really like it as a concept but I wouldn't hate testing it. 

-KA damage nerf to people.

But, as my .02,  I feel like a lot of the issues center around player culture than they do around specific jobs or items. 

[Cnaym]

15 minutes ago, Doxxmedearly said:

A lot of issues with "cargonia" are centered around arming up, I agree, but I feel like this is more of a player mindset issue than a department one; engineering has the exact same "An antag was mentioned, fortify" mindset in my experience. This is less of a mechanical issue and more of a player one.

Agree 100% with that. Though as I said with the robotics example a mechanic barrier helped iron out a lot of temptation.

Lock guns access could also be done via improving the crates. Maybe make them unbreakable, but require an engineer with a debugger, or a scientist with chemicals to open them up instead? There is a lot of ways to go about it and one that would involve other departments seems like the best on to me with the RP as a goal. I can tell someone that the multitool is ICly harder than point and click when they try to break a crate. I cannot tell them that shoot to open is unrealistic behavior ^^

17 minutes ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Longer playtime age restrictions on QM

It helped a lot with AI recently, might be a solid way to go. Like it much.

18 minutes ago, Doxxmedearly said:

If you're one of these people who get mad at others for not facilitating your spotlight, do everyone a favor and re-evaluate if HRP is for you.

I had quartermasters ask for combat suits. My roboticist hands out suits like candy -> without weapons. Engineers love it, while miners don't even send materials anymore. I 100% agree with the fact that people should rethink their ideas. That was my initial hope with this threat.

They are doing a day to day job. An almost boring 9-5 really. A fireaxe in the warehouse to help with spacevines will raise no eyebrows, screeching at the scientist for not handing out forcegloves will. I am really happy this has started a healthy discussion, even on discord. I felt like this was a topic that needed to be addressed, and the response so far has been a great one.

[Doxxmedearly]

6 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

Lock guns access could also be done via improving the crates. Maybe make them unbreakable, but require an engineer with a debugger, or a scientist with chemicals to open them up instead?

Accessible crate hacking like this would certainly be a cool addition. 

7 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

I had quartermasters ask for combat suits.

Big Yikes™️

I agree the discussion is important and I think your overall goal is solid. Do I think it'll get people who powergame and validhunt to have a revelation and change their ways? Nope. But I'd like the average player to read it and realize they don't have to go with that flow. It's not easy to deal with people crying/getting angry because you won't powergame/break character for their sake but the more people do it the less ground these offenders will have to stand on. Hopefully, anyway. Somehow I still have my optimism about this. 

[N8-Toe]

I think this is 100% un-needed. Removing QM because some people are shitters is cutting off your nose to spite your face. it is a role people play often and it would be a shame to remove it, and to whitelist it I think is also bad

 

In regards to guns and powergaming. That is an issue that needs to be ahelped and enforced by staff if it is done unreasonably. removing mechanical systems because a few people suck is  a terrible way to go about this. Making players depend on command to do every thing is not fun or interactive gameplay. I can remember when things from science came out of the protolathe in lockboxes, it sucked, and it hurt RP and round progression of the story.  I think below this issue is the major issue of securities monopoly on violence and peoples attitudes towards that. we should be having that conversation instead of talking about removing QM and nerfing departments into the dirt

TL:DR. this is a community/Enforcement issue. removing mechanics would be a shame and cutting off our nose to spite our face. 

[Natiform]

3 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Some really good shit

Seriously. There's, like, not a single thing here that I don't disagree with.

Please please please do not punish an entire department because of the actions of the few. To go through your list: 

 

8 hours ago, Cnaym said:

Remove all weapons from the menu. Better yet, lock them behind a command access. Same as Robotics and R&D. People cannot be trusted with handling the thing ICly, make it a wall OOCly. That means in an emergency the AI, Captain, Command or Interims can still order guns and armor. It also removes the Quartermasters from playing James Bond all round.

I don't think removing weapons would be a good idea only because of the points Doxxmedearly brought up- And as it was already stated, locking them behind a head or QM role would be best. And if we're worried about QM shitters doing the "rise up" bullshit anyway, then that can be fixed with-

 

 

8 hours ago, Cnaym said:

Remove Quartermaster. I considered this for a really long time now. They don't serve a purpose, except of being the hideout for people who will not get a command whitelist and are not yet banned. Honestly though, any QM that is interested in HRP instead of unga, will work the same way as cargo tech as they do as QM. Most of them indeed have in the past and chose the promotion ICly because it made sense. I strongly suggest them to apply for the command whitelist instead.

 

3 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Longer playtime age restrictions on QM

Absolutely this. All of the issues brought up with Quartermasters are seemingly issues that come from people that are new to the server and don't really care for a high RP environment. And yes, the department still functions without a Quartermaster - Any department can function without some kind of head - But the QM does best as a teacher role and that's what it should be used as. Leaving the department to the responsibility to the HoP only means that new players get less attention than they should, because more often than not, the HoP is a good target for antags and they end up getting caught up in what is going on elsewhere in the station and have no time for cargo at all.


 

 

8 hours ago, Cnaym said:

Stop teaching the mindset to new players. The removal of the QM would do a ton towards this since head of personnel players are a lot more helpful and have understood how to RP a chracter that cares for more then guns, the cargo account, the next code blue and so on.. I honestly don't want to bwoink people over falling into this trap. New players tend to try out cargo tech as they do not have much responsibility. The Quartermaster (Cargonia mentality, also a new player 9/10 times) tells them the following: "Keep the good stuff, send out the useless stuff, sec all suck, we can order guns." That is against our rules. If you play cargo to grab the best stuff for yourself and wait for blue to order a ton of guns, staff will have to handle it. If you are teaching this to new players, you are doing a lot more damage.

This one... Makes me iffy, because I have personally never seen a QM do this and if they ARE doing it then they should be reported immediately, because, just... No. That's not how this should go at all. It's powergaming and unrealistic and not in line with what a high RP environment should be. Again, this would be fixed by just adding a play-time restriction on the role to weed out the bad QMs that are here for their enjoyment and their enjoyment alone.


 

 

8 hours ago, Cnaym said:

Remove the KAs, or at least make them do zero damage. They are not needed for a miner and actively ruin the part of it that involves finding things apart from random crates, that get opened and then ignored unless it has a weapon in it. You strip yourself of any and all artifacts you might find by using them, you absolutely powergame blobs with them instead of having departments work together to figure things out and handle it. This is not an issue with the tool itself, but how it affects the roleplay environment.

This one has got to be a hard no for me. Again, as others have already stated, the purpose that KA's serve is to help miners get their job done and get back onto the station in a timely manner so that they can actually enjoy RP. KAs do almost no damage as it is as long as they are in a pressurized environment, so nerfing them isn't entirely necessary as it's basically useless when inside the station. And blobs still do plenty of damage before a good enough KA comes around to finish up the job - The default ones in the locker don't really do much of anything and if science has worked hard on making a strong KA for the miners then that should be rewarded by making "easy" work of a blob.

Random crates should just be removed, imo. They don't contribute to much of anything and are, more often than not, filled with junk. If we are worried about cargo using KAs to open crates that are not for their department, then why don't we make it so that if a crate is opened via KA, everything inside just gets blasted to bits? Hacking it would have to be a group effort with science.

 

8 hours ago, Cnaym said:

Report the shitty mindset if you want to focus on RP instead. Ahelp the cargo person with a sniper rifle in tactical armor. Ahelp the quartermaster running around in a hardsuit. The biggest issue here is that it does not get reported and instead the same three people applaud each other in LooC about how badass they are. I know it's a pain in the ass to deal with them all round, but if you are part of the community that takes issue with how it goes currently, take the active steps to help us sort it out instead of jumping into cryo. You may only get a note for hacking something the first time, it won't stay at a note if you report the people for doing it every round. It's the part where we really need the help of the community at large, because none of us can observe a department for hours.

I sincerely hope that people already do this but I know that it just needs to be pushed- Pretty, pretty please, if you see someone powergaming in cargo - Ahelp it. I'm begging you. As I said at the beginning of my post - Please do not punish an entire department for the actions of a few. We just need to fix the mentality around the department, not removing what makes it unique.


Edit: Forgot to talk about the antique sniper rifle. It should just... Have a lock be put on it. The fact that it does not have a lock on it already is just silly. It's a quick and easy fix.


And Seeli said: Increase the amount ordered for some things (a SINGLE chicken for 200 when a normal spawned crate comes with multiple). What about ready to cook carp meat (ie no carpotoxin in it)? Or more medicines?

I also think that this is a really good idea, as sometimes a hectic round with few medical players can be overwhelming when they don't have the proper medicines. Only thing to watch out for here would be the players that order medical supply crates and hoard them - But again, that's powergaming and should be ahelped or at least talked to in LOOC.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Natiform

[Doxxmedearly]

1 minute ago, Natiform said:

If we are worried about cargo using KAs to open crates that are not for their department, then why don't we make it so that if a crate is opened via KA, everything inside just gets blasted to bits?

This could be added. Forcing a crate with an explosion or KA  could have a chance of breaking/destroying contents. Keeps it good as a "oh shit pop this open at all costs don't tell me the odds" last-ditch effort while curbing the "Yeah let's just order a thing and pop it open, EZ PZ."

[Cnaym]

3 minutes ago, Natiform said:

Please do not punish an entire department for the actions of a few. We just need to fix the mentality around the department, not removing what makes it unique.

Sums up my intention perfectly, hence the title to remove cargonia. I really enjoy cargo, when it does what it's good at: Showing the average joe working in space to make a living.

1 minute ago, Doxxmedearly said:

This could be added. Forcing a crate with an explosion or KA  could have a chance of breaking/destroying contents. Keeps it good as a "oh shit pop this open at all costs don't tell me the odds" last-ditch effort while curbing the "Yeah let's just order a thing and pop it open, EZ PZ."

My favorite so far, as it makes ordering guns in many small crates a smart idea, which in turn will increase the time it takes for the shuttle. A sort of risk reward system, love it.

6 minutes ago, Natiform said:

Seriously. There's, like, not a single thing here that I don't disagree with.

Glad that you found a lot of stuff in your post that you do agree with, that was the hope of this after all. Finding some solutions that we can all work with ?

[BRAINOS]

everything doxx has said has been truth, with very big agree energy.

as a long-time QM player for several years on various servers including this one, i've experienced every single part of the spectrum from shitters to heaven-sent angels running the department and i can definitely say the issue is way more of a community and enforcement thing than a mechanical thing.

 

about the quartermaster position:

to say that QM adds nothing to a round is - well, it's fucky, and i struggle to agree with that. the rounds i've been QM and had the energy to deal with people's shitheadedness, it was an essential role to keep cargo running smoothly, with warehouse items being delivered, mining's resources being delivered, orders actually being taken- if you have a cargo crew who will listen, having a boss helps tremendously to keep everything in sync, and i am not here for the BS of just leaving it all to the head. i've had HoP's not even bother setting a single foot in cargo or service for entire rounds, i don't trust them to micromanage cargo the way it needs to be, and i definitely don't trust the cargo techs to manage everything themselves.

i haven't played as much lately, and have actively avoided the QM role because of the shitheads in cargo tech positions who treat any authority figure like an untrustworthy jackass and skirt around their boss's line of sight to keep doing the same bullshit they've been doing. i know i'm not the only good QM who's been discouraged from playing because of this rampant shitlery- and when all the good ones quit, you're left with the bad ones that are being cited over and over here.

my best rounds as QM have been spent peeling miner's guts off the asteroid or ordering equipment for the miners or teaching cargo techs how to do things the right way, but lately we haven't had a lot of people willing to engage in any of that, because they think the warehouse is a fucking candy shop and everything in there is theirs.

because the good QM's don't want to put up with this, and don't have the energy to fight with three other people and get no support whatsoever from the established command positions (i've never had an HoP care about cargo techs being belligerent shitlords except once and that was over PDA), they're less likely to keep filling that slot, and we're left with the bad ones. the bad QM's certainly don't help run the department and are more often than not the militia leaders we're fearing here.

my proposal is to give it a longer playtime restriction before you can play, and if at all possible, a department-specific playtime position, where you must log so many hours as CT and miner before you can be eligible for QM. everything else will fix the issue of QM's being assholes and teaching new players how to be assholes, too. if whitelisting QM is a thing that happens, i wouldn't oppose it, especially because it allows us to give the QM a bit more authority and gravitas over the cargo techs to keep them in line while also barring some of the known bad ones.

 

about the cargo tech position:

i've heard it described as common sense that cargo techs should not be able to approve orders for guns. i wholeheartedly agree. i'll go a step further and even say that yes, we should remove guns from the list of items we can order, period. don't even let them show up.

as quartermaster, when you have three cargo techs screaming at you and harassing you for not ordering guns, it's exhausting, especially since they'll just order guns themselves. if anything happens, the first reflex is to order guns. in an actual crisis situation, it does feel stupid to say "don't order guns just let sec handle it :)" when sec hasn't responded to a single call from cargo for months and your crewmembers are going missing one by one, even when they're sitting in their department.

we need to be way more serious about reporting bad cargo techs and enforcing better cargo behavior. right now it seems like such the norm, it's tough to report every single case because there can just be so many. it's really killed my enjoyment of playing in cargo, way more than quartermasters existing has. it's pretty routine at this point that rowdy cargo techs who want to powergame for the sake of powergaming will overrun the department and either harass the QM out of their position or the QM will enable it.

there was a mentioning of possibly letting only heads, AI and QM approve gun orders, and i'll take it a step further and say only heads and AI can authorize a gun order.

 

about KA's:

maybe nerf the damage output, but for god's sake please don't just get rid of them. mining is a pretty thankless, repetitive and boring job. it's only worse when you have to rely on drills or pickaxes.

 

about the whole situation:

i definitely agree there's a huge problem with cargo and i am desperate for solutions here. there's a reason i'm hardly ever in my department anymore. there's a reason i hardly play cargo anymore. i know i'm not the only decent player who's basically been shoved out of their position by greytides wearing shorts. this is only letting more greytides in shorts take over and compound the issue.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by BRAINOS

[Shenaanigans]

Similarly to a lot of other people here, I agree with some of these proposed changes and disagree with others.

1. Lock ordering weapons behind command authorization. Yes, do that. It'd go a long way in reducing the militia-like response you sometimes get from cargo, but still allow some fun if a command character comes by for authorization to get help in rounds where shit really hits the fan. Really security seems to depend on it sometimes to get access to lethals/ammo when there's no HoS or warden.
2. Remove/whitelist Quartermaster. I'm not super into this one. I'm personally using the QM position right now to get my feet wet in a "command like" position so it'd suck to have that taken away or locked behind the same whitelist I'm not comfortable going for yet. HoP is also an often filled role, but they have much more in the way of people to oversee than other command roles, except captain of course, so having someone around whose focus is to make sure orders are being gotten out, bounties are being sorted, and materials are being sent out from mining is very useful in my opinion.
3. Big agree that "unga bunga buy guns" is not a mindset to teach to players new to the HRP scene, but I feel that the prevalence of shitter QMs is being overstated a bit here. I have more time on mining than cargo though that's still let me run across a wide variety of QMs, most of which were just fine and reasonable while the capital S shitters more often than not got ahelped or given a stern talking to from the HoP when they tried some nonsense. The prevalence of LRP behavior in cargo seems, to me, no worse than what you see in many other departments and Doxx encapsulates pretty much all my thoughts on that in her first post.
4. Remove KAs. Please no. Nerf them to be basically useless in atmosphere if necessary, but the thrill of getting a suped up KA from science (which happens rarely since you need both a staffed science department, materials, and time to wait for your order to be made) to make mining not so tedious would be a really terrible thing to lose.
5. Ahelp ahelp ahelp. Yes, agree, we should absolutely encourage a shift in culture (over the whole server, in my opinion) where powergaming, LRP behavior is met with reporting it to staff and refusing to participate in doing the same. It's easy to get swept up in it when the whole department is spear toting and raring to go, but if it's nipped at the very start when someone starts slapping together enough plasteel swords for the whole department you can avoid things getting to that point. I'd be all for staff becoming stricter on this sort of thing and if that starts in cargo for right now that's alright.