Remove Renegade (Spy Vs Spy)

[sonicgotnuked]

I am holding no grudges against Matt, who originally added this, I like the idea and their work, but I really do not feel like it is necessary; adding bloat to the gamemodes and antag types unless it can get reworked.

 

Renegade has fundamental issues.

- It tells the player that it is a type of semi-antag

There is shroud and confusion with an endless amount of conflict between the red text and semi-antag nature that comes with Renegade. It often sparks confusion in many exactly what to do. Often times, this may be a natural first time effect, but I find it common that there is no true grasp on what exactly a Renegade should do. This sparks a common gimmick point that has no true flexibility, in which the game tells you. "AHHH THE BAD PEOPLE ARE AFTER ME" There is a lack of flexability in the game mode. It either ends with an autism fort, "GET OFF MUH LAND"

 

- It is mechanically built in a lazy fashion.

 Don't get me wrong, Matt is an excellent coder, and I find them the opposite of lazy when it comes to maintaining and implementing features of the code. Renagade is not an original game-mode and has been infact inside the code for a very long time. I find the implementation lacking as it changed very little on what Renagade actually is. While the concept of it has changed, the gun spawning always existed. Now it spawns inside your backpack which is a small band-aid on a gamemode that many try once or twice before turning off.

 

- It encourages Valid Hunting

Everything about this gamemode screams that traitors are now valid. They're traitors against the traitors. Shoot them! They're after you. While I may be going off on a big assumption, this is kind of what it is.

 

- Everything done by a Renegade can be done by a common Traitor

I would rather be a traitor and do the gimmicks Renegade provides then be a Renegade itself. Renegades are mechanically very weak, spawning with one gun, based on RnG. Traitors have substantially more access to gear to assist them and show zero limitations on which to do these gimmicks. It isn't against the rules to hunt other traitors and propel your own goals. You can still build autism forts and scream "get off my land" with a better fighting chance.

[geeves]

I quite like renegade. I keep it on my characters that I don't full-antag with. I don't think it's implemented lazily either, considering that the code serves the purpose: to spawn a gun in someone backpack. There is a PR up currently to spice up which guns they get as well.

Yes, it encourages valid hunting, but considering the number of antagonists in the round, that leads to an overall more chaotic round, which we've found to be much more entertaining every now and then.

[Peppermint]

I like the idea of it, but do admit that the 'antag but not' thing is kind of weird. I get why it exists, but it does def promote valid-hunting and it's kinda only allowing for a small handful of gimmicks. I'd personally like it to stay though. Perhaps incorporated into other rounds? (Borer would the the obvious one, changling/vamp maaybbee).

[Gromnax]

Perhaps making a renegade go "Do everything to stay free and alive" explicitely instead of just giving them a gun would help?

I don't know. I unfortunately never rolled renegade, but if the validhunting is part of the problem, then maybe this should be tweaked in this fashion. We are in a semi-dystopic corporate setting with dangerous things aboard even in extended. Giving them such leeway would make them less dependant on traitors and would help RP, I think.

Also, instead of just giving a random gun, we could offer them a veeeery limited uplink. Guns aren't the only way to protect themselves against imaginary/potential enemies. Things like the bug kit, freedom implant or medical supplies could be used too.

Those are just ideas. As I never rolled it, I can't help much more than by doing just that. However, I do think removing completely the gamemode isn't the way to go.

23 minutes ago, Lemei said:

Perhaps incorporated into other rounds? (Borer would the the obvious one, changling/vamp maaybbee).

Oh my god, yes, please.

[WickedCybs]

Has the validhunting been an observed problem? I can only speak for the actions of myself here and those I worked with in a few rounds, but I treat it as a very different experience versus being a traitor. The renegade variants of my characters are irrational and do whatever it takes to survive. This frequently ends up with them at odds with command and security rather than another antag. It spices up a round and makes the atmosphere a touch more chaotic. I don't really need or want the mechanical advantages being a traitor provides and hunting down other traitors as a traitor yourself is something I've never been a fan of. Putting up a better fight is not in my interests either, the crash and burning of renegades is part of the appeal to me and its led to some pretty neat RP. My designated "renegade" characters do well with it, as do my designated "traitor" characters do with that, though I have not done much of the latter.

Maybe other modes could benefit from renegades as has been said above me, though I do understand renegades by nature could be lot more valid hunting than other roles, especially for something like vampire or ling.

[Doxxmedearly]

Gotta agree with cybs and everything they said sums up my thoughts eloquently. I don't think I've yet to experience a renegade going valid-mode on traitors. It's a different flavor of spice entirely to traitor and I appreciate that. The rounds I've observed had been really cool.

I definitely agree it would be cool to see renegades placed in other gamemodes that are paranoia based, like ling, vamp, borer, etc.

[Carver]

Renegade has always been one of my favourite roles; it's that 'push over the edge' that allows you to act more freely without the demanding nature of being expected to perform some grand opera like traitors and other roles are.

On 19/02/2020 at 19:47, sonicgotnuked said:

It isn't against the rules to hunt other traitors and propel your own goals.

Isn't this frowned upon? I would expect to have complaints and ahelps if I were to make my direct goal the hunting of antagonists as an antagonist, particularly a traitor.

[Garnascus]

I actually really like the concept of renegade. We are just experiencing growing pains with it as its not what we traditionally expect of an antagonist. It is your character given a specific flaw to work with in the case of extreme and irrational paranoia. 

[Seeli]

I enjoy the concept of renegade and the antag-but-not, as it discourages them from going wild and hurting crew for "no raisins" like traitors. Instead, they're paranoid, they're having a bad day, they've snapped, whatever the story, it can be entertaining.

[AmoryBlaine]

As I understand the gun is becoming optional. Which is good. Because automatically having a gun sorts spoils the open-endedness of this.

[Scheveningen]

Renegade doesn't really offer a lot of opportunities for certain character types (since it forces paranoia upon you for the most part and then gives you immediate license to counter-kill traitors that don't get replenished in round), so I pretty much keep it off.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

I've implemented a slight change to Renegades. Hopefully this will change it up a bit! 

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8543