PR Feedback Thread: Robotics Revamp

[Aticius]

Alt Title: Aticius upsets everyone by poking the bear.

Related PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8555

Since, perhaps, the introduction of Robotics as a job circa god knows when, Robotics has been reliant on two jobs to function ideally: Research and Mining. Why this was done that way is perhaps a question lost to time it's self. It's effects, however, are very much not so. Often, Robotics is left mewling and useless due to no one doing Research, either by "It's not my job" or by sheer incompetence, or Mining not existing.

 

This PR has one very focused goal: To remove RnD as a responsibility from the job of Scientist. The reasoning being, it's not particularly fun to begin with [citation needed], and does not directly benefit the person doing it, unless they specifically want to make guns.

 

So, by that logic; why bother keeping this system if all it does it cause misery for a specific job?  If balance is a concern; that can be addressed with more focused changes, rather than making a job unfun to play due to it's reliance to even function at a basic level on someone related only arbitrarily.

 

This PR also addresses a select few minor changes, and turns the old RnD lab into a Break Room for non-sci mains to gawk at.

Pictures in the PR.

 

 

[Kintsugi]

Generally speaking I think the reassignment of responsibilities so that there's more on the shoulders of roboticists (Whose scope is somewhat limited) and less on scientists (whose scope is too broad) is a good thing. I still do not condone the break room getting an oven.

[Happy_Fox]

I would prefer to see something like even higher starting levels for RnD - than I would to see even more capability and responsibility added to Robotics' already massive wheelhouse. Most advanced/powerful items/tools aren't possible to be produced without materials from Mining anyway.

And assuming both departments are staffed and worked on it will always take mining longer to provide these resources than it does for the RnD to be completed (something which only takes 10-15 minutes).

If this PR was to start Research levels at a point high enough that "robotics could function at a basic level" I would support it. Moving RnD to Robotics is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

[ShadowGabe23]

I think RnD is awful to do, and while this may come down to me playing this game for too long and simply getting annoyed at the repetitiveness I still believe its not exactly one of the best things to have to do, and even though many can do it quickly, its hard to rely on the fact that 1. someone can do it competently and 2. someone is there at all, with that in mind, I believe that with this PR it would make it easier for the miners to have to go to one place in order to request the items they need.

It also seems like general scientists jobs are not lost out upon because they still retain a protolathe and an autolathe, I feel like this PR would generally help the flow of science robotics and mining all rolled into one.

With all that said mining boy says unga bunga +1

[Aticius]

53 minutes ago, Happy_Fox said:

I would prefer to see something like even higher starting levels for RnD - than I would to see even more capability and responsibility added to Robotics' already massive wheelhouse. Most advanced/powerful items/tools aren't possible to be produced without materials from Mining anyway.

And assuming both departments are staffed and worked on it will always take mining longer to provide these resources than it does for the RnD to be completed (something which only takes 10-15 minutes).

If this PR was to start Research levels at a point high enough that "robotics could function at a basic level" I would support it. Moving RnD to Robotics is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

The former suggestion simply kicks the problem down the line, and fixes nothing. It would just be a bandaid. If Mining is still the limiting factor (It is.), then clearly game balance is not a concern, there.

 

So what direction is harmed by making Robotics, the people who want and need it done more than anyone else, the people doing RnD? Can you elaborate?

[Snakebittenn]

I explicitly support this much for the same reasons as Danse. Less for the very wide scientists, more for the very narrow roboticists. Also, the break room is adorable.

[Hepatica]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! Robotics has been my secondary main for years, always has been and always will be. It's fun, it's great, UNTIL no one (competent) is in RnD or the same for Mining. It is the only job with this heavy of a restriction and I would say 50% of the time I'm in robotics I sit there doing nothing because of those very reasons. Please. I would literally give money to fund this idea if I wasn't broke. Also please add a bathroom to science. I know they have next to no actual purpose, but it's a research station. Engineering, security, and medical have bathrooms (hell medical even gets a dorm room! Unfair!), given that the main focus of the station outside of mining phoron is science, it would make sense to have science be the most decked out department, and that their every need would be sought too. At least that's what I think. Obviously it's not any REAL concern, just think it would make sense ICly. +1

Also PLEASE make an updated guide for RnD if you expect people who have never had a reason to do RnD to suddenly do RnD. The guides on the wiki are outdated and bad.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Hepatica

[FearTheBlackout]

I was against this, since it would require me to learn something currently outside the scope of the role, and because I don't view Roboticists as being researchers, despite being in Research. However, I warily support this for the fact it removes one of Robotics' dependencies, and that R&D feels more like an engineering than a scientific thing to begin with.

If it goes through, I hope it convinces some people who frequent R&D to try Robotics. Better Roboticists are sorely needed.

Opinion redacted. Against the changes for the reasons Doxx described.

Edited March 30, 2020 by FearTheBlackout

[Boggle08]

When I play my scientist, this would make me feel less guilty for not doing RnD every round and constantly hovering in proximity to the desk for crew requests. I can try the other things the department has with less interruptions.

When I play characters who aren't research, This means I can count on at least the roboticist to be in proximity to the lathes, and able to process my requests. +1

[Happy_Fox]

55 minutes ago, Aticius said:

The former suggestion simply kicks the problem down the line, and fixes nothing. It would just be a bandaid. If Mining is still the limiting factor (It is.), then clearly game balance is not a concern, there.

 

So what direction is harmed by making Robotics, the people who want and need it done more than anyone else, the people doing RnD? Can you elaborate?

I think you need to clarify which aspects of Robotics are hampered by a lack of RnD.

- Which things are able to be produced with the current starting levels and which things aren't?

- How many of the things that you aren't able to produce are absolutely necessary to do robotics to a basic level of functionality?

Edited March 30, 2020 by Happy_Fox

[Aticius]

Robotics is currently, totally unable to produce anything worthwhile for anyone other than Miners who want a specific RIG suit to save on points and slowdown. The only things of note that Robotics can make, that are currently viable, are Mechs with drills in case someone wants a blast door removed, EVA rigs for miners and Cleanbots to make the janitor upset.

 

A "basic" level of functionality implies Robotics can handle any requests it might receive that are within reason. With sufficient research, Robotics can make a poor, but servicable mech for Security, make basic RIGs. Without RnD; Robotics cannot make the one robot worth a damn; The Farmbot; as they lack access to an Autolathe and Protolathe; unless Botany or Xenobotany hocks up the spare in their locker (meant for a player!) to get one.

 

[Seeli]

So basically, remove scientists and make Roboticists in charge of all the "research" Scientists used to do? No thank you, I am sorry, but please no. Big -1!

[Snakebittenn]

19 minutes ago, Seeli said:

So basically, remove scientists and make Roboticists in charge of all the "research" Scientists used to do? No thank you, I am sorry, but please no. Big -1!

Very few scientists actually have R&D as their core focus. Most of them have another focus entirely.
Circuits. Modular weapons. Telescience. Xenoarcheology. Anomalies. Phoron research. Xenobio. Xenobotany. Secret chems/other horseshit. This takes very little out of their role.

[Hepatica]

1 hour ago, ParadoxSpace said:

Very few scientists actually have R&D as their core focus. Most of them have another focus entirely.
Circuits. Modular weapons. Telescience. Xenoarcheology. Anomalies. Phoron research. Xenobio. Xenobotany. Secret chems/other horseshit. This takes very little out of their role.

If anything, this frees most scientists up to do what they actually want to do instead of having to slog through RnD every single shift.

[Aticius]

28 minutes ago, Seeli said:

So basically, remove scientists and make Roboticists in charge of all the "research" Scientists used to do? No thank you, I am sorry, but please no. Big -1!

If you don't wish to read the PR and the stated goals; That's fine. Scientists are not being removed, not even close to it. The goal of this PR is to remove the busy work few, if anyone, seems to enjoy and giving it to the role that actually needs it done. If you enjoy the minigame, you could continue to play it as a Roboticist.

[Doxxmedearly]

Does this not just make scientists who want to experiment with protolathe items dependent on robotics, instead of the other way around?

There are better ways to handle RnD dependencies. Moving it to robotics is probably one of the worst ways I can think of. Additionally, you've gone and made the robotics lab cramped again.

Nobody likes the minigame. That's evident. Instead of moving it to robotics, we really should just be rid of it. It's gamey and dated. The only thing it does right now is function as a gateway for the absolutely preposterous amount of powergamers present in robotics, which I see as its only redeeming factor. However, I'd rather be rid of it and simply ban those individuals. But this is out of scope.

I, too, love and play robotics frequently, and this seems like a terrible change. I do not want to be responsible for knowing research, and I do not feel that it fits with a roboticist's focus. It feels like we're just trying to shove an old system on someone else's shoulders, and if that's not a bandaid fix, I don't know what is. I agree that scientists lose nothing by removing this from their responsibilities, but you're just hamfisting it into a different area of science here. Not a fan.

Strong -1

[Aticius]

Just now, Doxxmedearly said:

Does this not just make scientists who want to experiment with protolathe items dependent on robotics, instead of the other way around?

There are better ways to handle RnD dependencies. Moving it to robotics is probably one of the worst ways I can think of. Additionally, you've gone and made the robotics lab cramped again.

Nobody likes the minigame. That's evident. Instead of moving it to robotics, we really should just be rid of it. It's gamey and dated. The only thing it does right now is function as a gateway for the absolutely preposterous amount of powergamers present in robotics, which I see as its only redeeming factor. However, I'd rather be rid of it and simply ban those individuals. But this is out of scope.

I, too, love and play robotics frequently, and this seems like a terrible change. I do not want to be responsible for knowing research, and I do not feel that it fits with a roboticist's focus. It feels like we're just trying to shove an old system on someone else's shoulders, and if that's not a bandaid fix, I don't know what is. I agree that scientists lose nothing by removing this from their responsibilities, but you're just hamfisting it into a different area of science here. Not a fan.

Strong -1

Removing Research all together is an alternative to this that i've considered as well; But I'm not so sure on how that would be recieved; as this seems like a much less controversial way to do it than to simply max out research and chucking in a general access analyzer somewhere which will be explored if this PR does not turn out to be well recieved.

[Hepatica]

I would not at all be against removing RnD, but I also have no alternative for it's replacement, if one was needed. Not sure if one really IS needed but idk, I also don't minmax power game lol, so some one might be able to abuse it real bad.

[Cnaym]

2 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

I, too, love and play robotics frequently, and this seems like a terrible change. I do not want to be responsible for knowing research, and I do not feel that it fits with a roboticist's focus.

100% Agree. This just adds onto the solo powerhouse that robotics currently is. The abuse is obvious, not only the powergaming but the demand of materials. I had a roboticist chase after me and my material box because I suggested to trade my first haul (which is R&D usually) for an EVA suit. The only redeeming factor ICly was that I already promised it to the other roboticist, but the LRP chase was hilarious ^^

Robotics is like xenoarcheolgy really, you get rounds that are amazing for mechanics, you get rounds on which you cryo on roundstart focus on RP instead. Think the mentality should be to make the best with what you get for that round, not min-max every round only to show up with a combat hardsuit at the red dock, not having talked to anyone the entire round. Maybe that's just me, I play miner and am usually done in 20-30 minutes and then do the RP. Same with engineering, rando events give me 10 minutes of work once a round and that's it mostly. I play here for the RP mostly so I don't mind it much, but if mechanics are more your thing, going for the scrapper and trying to put together stuff from the things you find can be awarding aswel.

tl:dr Exosuit fabricator goes Brrr

[The Stryker]

The argument of removing RnD aside (although I'm for keeping it), it seems ridiculous that a research station would have so many break rooms when they have a full scale bar that's almost as big as research. Assuming we remove RnD, researchers still need space to make their prototypes and removing the already cramped (ICly, at least) RnD Lab is not the way to go about it. If we must have a break room, maybe utilize maintenance space because research has a ton of it.

Tl:dr we're a research station, we should have some labs instead of erp break rooms

[wowzewow]

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by removing one of the largest pet peeves that they face: That they rely on both Mining and Research to properly function.

The entire research department relies on mining. And the reliance on Research could be solved by just giving them science access.

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this does give them the responsibilities of Research; Meaning that equipment distribution,

The only equipment they're qualified to distribute are mechs, borgs, bionics, the like

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the RnD Minigame and properly updating the Research Network are now their problem and responsibility.

WHY? Doesn't that literally defeat the entire purpose of Scientist as an actual job?

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This is a significant change in the direction of the job of Roboticist, but I believe for the better, as the Minigame is now done by people with a distinct interest in having it done and no longer puts them at the mercy of a job who's responsibilities range from "Justifying bombs as science" to "Digging in the dirt for murdering statues".

So you're moving the problem of Scientists being bored of the minigame to Roboticists who are equally uninterested to do said minigame,

because they picked roboticist SPECIFICALLY to avoid it and build mechs instead.

...this just shoves them out of their job scope. They're supposed to mostly focus on mechs, bionics, synths, the like. They aren't supposed to be researching.

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Thus, Scientist gets a tightening of focus and Robotics is now focused on making things.

Scientists get a tightening on focus...on what, exactly? This just encourages to make weapons and bombs to their heart's content,

since all responsibility to make important things are now shoved to the Roboticist.

This basically tips the balance ALL to the roboticist's side, further exaggerating the problem you're trying to solve.

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This is primarily a map change, giving Robotics all the tools they need. The Old RnD lab has been converted into a Break Room and the Circuitry Lab has been given a Proto and Autolathe, to still allow Scientists to build things, and Antags to still make dubious things, as well as some misc changes.

Speaking of which, the mapping changes are questionable at best.

Replacing about 1/5 of the entire department with a break room (containing an oven, for some reason) AND smoking room (which has no place to be there), shoving Science's actual equipment to the wayside.

Edited March 30, 2020 by wowzewow

[IAmCrystalClear]

I do, infact, play roboticist.

I understand the pain of having no RnD done by scientists and being able to do nothing about it.

I both love and despise the role. There is nothing to do. Nothing at all unless you want to build mechs.

Building any mechs capable of combat is 9/10 done by powergamers, without authorisation and far out of the need of the situation. What's worse is when they then demand to drive the thing themselves.

Moving RnD to Robotics empowers these powergamers.

-1

[furrycactus]

I love playing both Scientist and Roboticist, and I genuinely could not be more against this change. The R&D minigame is absolute garbage, and very few people ever actually want to do it, and offloading it onto Robotics just seems unfair, not to mention the fact that it's going to utterly ramp up blatant powergaming in that field. 

Also, no break room is getting an oven ever, not budging on that. 

[GreenBoi]

I don't see why we don't put the two lathes and destructive analyzer in a special room of its own that both scientists and roboticists can access- that way either side can do it if they really need to. Roboticists can do it if they're complaining about RnD, and scientists can do it if they want to make QoL stuff/upgrades/circuits. Don't feel moving it to robo solves TOO much, and several people do play robo to specifically avoid the minor and pesky responsibility of doing any form of the RnD 'minigame' (why do we even call it that, it's not fun, challenging or cool- it's just clicking).

[SatinsPristOTD]

From a mapping standpoint, that is overly done. Is that an oven in the break room? Why has their breakroom became a mini kitchen and bar? Does this not just remove RP from other areas of the station?