Feedback thread: Danse's gun changes

[Kintsugi]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/9786

Check out the google doc in the PR for more info.

[ferner]

While the smg and assault rifle icon changes are nice, I heavily disagree with the change of the blasters and gauss rifle sprites.
The change to an ugly blue furnishing will blend in with the armor of the tcfl and be a general downgrade on its own. All in the name of making designs 'futuristic' by removing flavor.

As one of the only factions that uses wood furnishings for their guns, it adds to their uniqueness and it fits with the theme of being a low budget type militia using outdated weaponry in the first place.
Plus, they're not the only users of blasters and gauss weaponry, as they also appear in the hands of raiders, traitors and the coalition for example. Where that outdated, low-budget theming still fits, where the blue polymer would not.

As for the other changes introduced in this pr, I'm neutral at this moment.

[Kintsugi]

Just now, ferner said:

While the smg and assault rifle icon changes are nice, I heavily disagree with the change of the blasters and gauss rifle sprites.
The change to an ugly blue furnishing will blend in with the armor of the tcfl and be a general downgrade on its own. All in the name of making designs 'futuristic' by removing flavor.

As one of the only factions that uses wood furnishings for their guns, it adds to their uniqueness and it fits with the theme of being a low budget type militia using outdated weaponry in the first place.
Plus, they're not the only users of blasters and gauss weaponry, as they also appear in the hands of raiders, traitors and the coalition for example. Where that outdated, low-budget theming still fits, where the blue polymer would not.

As for the other changes introduced in this pr, I'm neutral at this moment.

Ingame I have never seen any of these weapons end up in the hands of anyone except the TCFL. You can argue from a lore perspective, but it doesn't quite work because ingame it doesn't matter. If there's an issue with blue polymer blending into the TCFL's armor, I will change it to be a different color. As far as the argument that wood means low budget militia, I'd argue the opposite - In the year 2462, where there are hundreds of billions of Human beings and only so many planets that can supply a large amount of lumber, wood is almost certainly more expensive than polymer. Couple that with the that wood is far less durable and useful as a firearms component means that if anyone is going to be including wood on their guns, it will be someone wealthy- someone who can splurge on the niceties of life without much regard for utility. With that in mind, I think if anything, the TCFL would be using the cheapest, shittiest plastic possible. Not nice, oiled walnut.

 

Anyway, I don't think laser guns should have wood on them. Wood is second to polymer in the modern day, and this is a trend that won't be reversed any time soon.

[The Stryker]

If we're going to go polymer and cheap, a black or that sort of poorly-molded plastic would suit better perhaps. I prefer the rustic look on the wood but that's personal preference.  If we're going to keep the blue, like you said, something more saturated and contrasting to the armor itself.

I have my own "if it ain't broke don't fix it" concerns regarding the change in calibers but that seems fine.

The increased magazine sizes are nice and further increases the idea that shit has hit the fan when you see these weapons.

A random thought, the Z8 is used in a civilian application (even if it is in the context of a corporation's security forces), so perhaps the addition of extended magazines instead of doing away with the 10 round magazines should be considered? Also the first M16 had 20-round magazines.

[ferner]

The coalition gearcrates specifically include gauss rifles, and random weapons, both bought by antags and included at the raider spawn have a chance to drop a blaster.

Any argument using what things are like trends in the modern day are irrelevant and not something we should tie ourselves to. And not the kind of philosophy we should use when explaining or expecting how things look in the current point of our timeline.

The wood, what you see as a point of luxury, can as easily be explained away by saying perhaps that it's a wood looking furnishing used to once upon a time upsell an otherwise undesireable product, or perhaps these weapons were put together somewhere where timber is plentiful.
That's all I'll say on the matter, I'm not interested in these kinds of arguments or back and forths.

Edited August 28, 2020 by ferner

[Doc]

I'm sorry but coloring the wood furnishings blue straight up just looks bad. Between the two options, please keep the wood sprites.

As for the actual 'fittingness' of the sprites, I can understand both sides of the argument- even though, in a lore context, wood furnishings probably wouldn't be a "cheap" thing anymore, the visual composition of a wood-furnished weapon compared to a sleek black weapon like the rifles mercs use will generally immediately impress "civilian vs military", or "shitty vs professional".

And for the blue polymer-.. it honestly makes the weapon look like a toy. It's not a good look any which way you cut it, imo.

 

The new assault rifle sprite looks great. The new SMG sprite looks... weird, to me. I preferred the old one, but that might just be "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, because I can't really point out any specific issues, so no real complaint I suppose.

 

Altering magazine capacity is only something that we'll truly be able to evaluate once it goes live and begins to affect gameplay, but I just want to throw out there that your on-doc written explanation of "X would never have Y round magazines realistically" is simply a misguided way to think about changing these things; magazine capacity, damage types and amounts, accuracy and similar aspects of weaponry is all a gameplay balance concern, and regardless of how much "realistic" sense it may or may not make, must fit in with the server's established gameplay balance before worrying about the lore behind it.  Gameplay > lore. Period.

[Kintsugi]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

The new assault rifle sprite looks great. The new SMG sprite looks... weird, to me. I preferred the old one, but that might just be "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, because I can't really point out any specific issues, so no real complaint I suppose.

Personally I have no preference for either machine pistol sprite, buuut. The machine pistol and energy carbine both share essentially the same sprite (because the energy carbine is just a resprited machine pistol), and this irked me greatly. Hence the change.

14 minutes ago, Doc said:

Altering magazine capacity is only something that we'll truly be able to evaluate once it goes live and begins to affect gameplay, but I just want to throw out there that your on-doc written explanation of "X would never have Y round magazines realistically" is simply a misguided way to think about changing these things; magazine capacity, damage types and amounts, accuracy and similar aspects of weaponry is all a gameplay balance concern, and regardless of how much "realistic" sense it may or may not make, must fit in with the server's established gameplay balance before worrying about the lore behind it.  Gameplay > lore. Period.

I disagree. As a HRP server we strive to make the most authentic experience we can- serious roleplay is compromised when you focus too much on balance, because you have things that nobody can logically justify in-world. While balance is important, you can balance realism, you can't realism balance.

[Doc]

21 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

I disagree. As a HRP server we strive to make the most authentic experience we can- serious roleplay is compromised when you focus too much on balance, because you have things that nobody can logically justify in-world. While balance is important, you can balance realism, you can't realism balance.

Sorry, but no. This is a compromise that the development team has mandated and reinforced multiple times over the server's life as a result of us being a HRP server that is not extended only, and that is explicitly designed to include and utilize an antagonist vs crew dynamic to augment our roleplaying experience; gameplay balance is, necessarily, a primary development concern as a result.

[geeves]

hello dev here

1) keep the wood sprites
2) game balance > roleplay > realism, keep it that way
3) have a nice day

[Butterrobber202]

keep the wood, it looks better.

[Carver]

If you insist on replacing the wood I'd opt for a grey or a black - something neutral and subtle. The blue is just ugly, and as one of the two people who's played with the coalition crate and might actually use it again, I'd hate to see it marred by ill-fitting TCFL colours.

[Valkrae]

You can easily explain away anything in a sci-fi setting.

Who's to say the TCFL aren't nostalgic sons of bitches, and paint their stocks brown so they can pretend it's wood?

[Kintsugi]

59 minutes ago, Valkrae said:

You can easily explain away anything in a sci-fi setting.

Who's to say the TCFL aren't nostalgic sons of bitches, and paint their stocks brown so they can pretend it's wood?

me

[stev]

2 hours ago, DanseMacabre said:

3 hours ago, Valkrae said:

You can easily explain away anything in a sci-fi setting.

Who's to say the TCFL aren't nostalgic sons of bitches, and paint their stocks brown so they can pretend it's wood?

me

 

That's an extremely unproductive response to criticism, especially on a feedback thread for something you're making, my dude.

[Kintsugi]

2 minutes ago, stev said:

 

That's an extremely unproductive response to criticism, especially on a feedback thread for something you're making, my dude.

alright

[Sheeplets]

"Give me feedback"

"I disagree with you"

"Give me different feedback, your feedback is wrong because I said so"

?

[DronzTheWolf]

Like the majority, I'm saying we should keep the brown/wood stocks on the TCFL guns. That is all. 

[Kintsugi]

15 hours ago, UncleJo said:

"Give me feedback"

"I disagree with you"

"Give me different feedback, your feedback is wrong because I said so"

?

who said that what the heck

14 hours ago, DronzTheWolf said:

Like the majority, I'm saying we should keep the brown/wood stocks on the TCFL guns. That is all. 

I'm currently experimenting with a sort of bakelite look for the furniture.

  

I'd like to add checkering, like the sec handguns have- but there's not a whole lot of real estate on the magazines to facilitate this.

[Zelmana]

As a proud Makarov owner, some bakelite grips would be neat on certain pistols and grips. However, from a roleplay standpoint, I would imagine that the TCFL have some sort of uniformity, be it all poly-blue or all wood stocks. My personal preference is that they get the poly-blue furniture.

As for changing cartridge size, I disagree. I think that we've come pretty far in terms of cartridge development. Really, the only thing that has changed recently is some polymer casings like the new gov't contract for the 6.8, caseless bullets (priming agent/charge are completely consumed on discharge), as well as some other oddballs. One must also note that some current ammo, 9mm Luger as well as 7.62x54r are both in regular service use and each are around a hundred years old.

Realistically, yes, there will be some more advancements, but there is a point where a technology can reach its peak potential before becoming something completely different. For example, we could assume that bullets advanced enough to eventually become energy that is being propelled and then that eventually turn into the laser rifles and other phaser-like weapons we see in game. 

For sake of simplicity, I would say do not "obfuscate" cartridges. The numbers on them mean something-- and some of these ammo types you suggested already exist or are close enough to other ammo types. Simply changing them for means of changing them to other ammo "that is used in the future" seems a bit off to me.

 

So, besides the ammo cartridge changes, I will be one to stand out from the wood-crowd and say that I like the poly-blue changes. Adding some bakelite stuff would be neat for some rare guns. Specifically, some of the "antique" guns should come with more than just a wooden grips. A pearl or bake grip would add way more flair.

[Carver]

I'd rather they not be blue stocks - or anything explicitly TCFL-branded - as the gauss thumper is included in the Coalition equipment crates for Nukies/Mercenaries. The cheap orange bakelite look works well enough to be universal as a design.

[DronzTheWolf]

Bakelite is a good compromise, though wood holds a place in my heart nothing else can fill. 

Wood furniture guns are my favorite aesthetic.

[Zelmana]

Re: My statement above, I was thinking it over today.

I realized that you retracted the part of the PR changing cartridges before I said that above. In my mind it didn't make sense to switch some things to bakelite, the oldest synthetic polymer material, and then change ammo types to be futuristic.