Foolproof The Robotics Mechfabs

[Waff-AI]

Hello, gamers.

One thing that's bothered me lately is the ability of robotics to produce combat mechs and hardsuits without so much as a green light from anybody else. RnD has their firing pin problem, the armory is the armory, but this is an entire sub-department that essentially builds walking tanks and powered armor with no gameplay barriers outside regulations.

Regulations are fine, of course, but there's an old saying: If you can enforce something mechanically rather than judicially, then why not do it? So I dug in the code, and what I've gone and done is essentially copied emag code into a sort of lock; An item that spawns for the RD(and HOS! I'm also considering the Warden) that allows you to permit robotics to produce combat-related mech equipment, hardsuit devices, and the hazard and combat rigs. At the moment, I'm still working out how to make it reversible, and what to include, but even those are negotiable. The mechfabs will also be emaggable to produce the armaments as normally, to allow antags to get their gubbins without bureaucracy.

Why? Because itdoesn't make any sense, logically speaking, for a non-military installation to just let you produce a functionally limitless supply of heavily armed munitions without mechanical checks. "You shouldn't do it!" doesn't stop people in the Real World, nor does it stop them here, nine times of ten. This is a basic, almost ineffectual measure to be taking that does nothing but ensure a little realism and a lot of not-producing-an-armory-because-you're-bored. And, really, this sort of thing should require some sort of go-ahead from a department head. I wouldn't let my kid sister touch my shotgun, so I keep it in a safe; I don't want Baldie McNewintown to have a combat hardsuit with built-in weaponry, so I'm adding a lock. It'll also prevent powergaming on lowpop antagonists like burglar or changeling and give the antags more of a fighting chance, if you want to think of it that way.

Counterpoint I: RnD/xenobot/cargo can produce weaponry!
Rebuttal: RnD has the firing pin system, xenobotany can be countered fairly easily and takes some modicum of focus to produce weaponized plants, and cargo ordering guns/building them still requires some level of antagonist play to obtain them without authorization. 

Counterpoint II: This will drive away robotics players!
Rebuttal: If your only goal to play robotics is to produce combat mechs and hazard suits for your friends, you shouldn't be playing robotics. There are loads of other really, really cool things you can do and I highly encourage them because they don't produce deadchat salt.

Counterpoint III: Security needs equipment to deal with xenofauna/events/etc and sometimes there isn't a head of staff!
Rebuttal: This is a tricky one, but ultimately, one less way to skin the metaphorical cat isn't a huge reduction in power, here. Giving a fabricator what is essentially a childproofing is a basic measure- it doesn't remove them entirely, it just makes them require someone else's permission. The armory has a similar issue, but it typically can be resolved fairly easily and the miners know what they're doing.

Counterpoint IV: My counterpoint isn't listed!
Rebuttal?: Post it below! I'm happy to get some feedback before I open the PR. I'm not really a master coder or anything, so it'll be a moment before I can get that going, but I've already got it working on the test server, so, this is just a waff-ai-is-doing-this-because-they-wanted-to-sort-of-thing. If it's unpopular, I simply do not do it. 

i showed you my robotics concept please respond

[Hepatica]

As someone who plays the hell out of robotics, always have and always will, I cannot +1 this enough. I can't count the amount of times an interesting antag has had their round ruined by an exosuit. Hell, I've been that person that supplied the exosuit. I felt bad about it, as it's not fair to quite a few antag types. Now, that being said, exosuits aren't the biggest problem and are fairly weak for the most part, though easily spammed out given the resources and upgrades, hence why I think this is a good nerf. The REAL nerf here, and one that absolutely should be done, is locking out the security hardsuits as well. Let's face it, robotics is filled with power gamers, we recently had an event round that saw FIVE exosuits spammed out, many of which piloted by roboticists that have no business being in combat. This is an excellent idea, please make it happen.

[Cnaym]

For the love of god, yes please. Robotics is overflowing with mech mains, who also use them without any shame. If you are wearing a labcoat your character should provide more than an obsession with murder and utter disregard for their own safety. It's annoying as hell how cheap those parts are. You can spam combat mechs on lowpop and let the AI hunt down antags like crazy with it.

Having them locked away behind this wall at least requires a command decision or actual antag involvement to do this stupid stuff.

[Lordnesh]

I agree with this whole heartedly. I haven't been playing antag for too long, but there have been a multiple instances where, seemingly random people, show up out of nowhere with super sophisticated tech and stomp all over my non-robust ass. There was even a round where myself and another antag were just starting to make our move, and got immediately shut down by random sec mech number one thousand three hundred and thirty three. I generally don't make a habit of supporting gatekeeping, but I'll support it in this case.

+1

[Shadow7889]

YES PLEASE. +1

[Karhast]

All that needed saying has been said. +1

[Wigglesworth Jones]

Boy do I love getting swarmed by 500 combat mechs as a traitor. I think that this would be a good thing to implement, definitely.

[TehFlaminTaco]

+1. Love trying to burgle the station only to be hit by the wraith of a half-price Durand.

[Scheveningen]

there are some other ways to rebuke this but I'm not interested in playing devil's advocate for something that should be relatively well agreed upon that robotics being able to give very difficult to kill combat mechs straight to security without any oversight is not a good thing. Everyone else has hoops to jump through, and I'll be damned if robotics gets to not have to deal with one.

[ryog]

+1. For the sheer simplicity of making combat mechs, they are effective enough and don't provide any meaningful interaction for a round.

[MEDTECH]

It could be a "Combat and targeting board" linked to alert level (Blue/Red allow firing) and/or an ID-lock on security members if there is a weapon onboard.

Or you could link all mech's to the robotic console of the bridge to allow wireless deactivation and lockdown by command/antag.

Anyway : +1.

Edited September 2, 2020 by MEDTECH

[Doxxmedearly]

Yeah this is a pretty good call

[DronzTheWolf]

F in the chat for Robotics revs, and miners who want to slay carp. 

+1

[Waff-AI]

9 hours ago, MEDTECH said:

It could be a "Combat and targeting board" linked to alert level (Blue/Red allow firing) and/or an ID-lock on security members if there is a weapon onboard.

Or you could link all mech's to the robotic console of the bridge to allow wireless deactivation and lockdown by command/antag.

Anyway : +1.

This seems cool, but I'm both not that good of a coder and unwilling to curb the power of antag roboticists to that degree. 

1 hour ago, DronzTheWolf said:

F in the chat for Robotics revs, and miners who want to slay carp. 

+1

I'm also working on an anti-xenofauna mech weapon a la the phase guns from other Baycode derivatives, although from my time as a mining main I've found the carp hunters never used mechs or hardsuit weaponry.

[Vulcenus]

Based, +1

[VeteranGary]

As a robotics main, I do see the issues with combat mechs in general. They are rather simple to make and don't always need combat armor to function. Hell, you can turn a powerloader into a pretty fucking scary combat mech, since the 'open' chassis blocks 90% of damage to the user. Effectively it is a second skin just as good as the most unbalanced hardsuit in the game, the Breacher hardsuit. However, I see better ways negating this. The new mech code by all means is still a WIP. Compared to the old-mech base, there were parts needed from RND just to make one mech, without it robotics was essentially useless. I see this was removed so robotics could actually output mechs. These parts included advanced scanners, etc, which hardsuit still need. Robotics cannot output hardsuits without the help of RnD doing both research and providing certain items.

Anyway. Mechs as they currently are, miss the entire security permissions systems the oldmech base had. With this, you could ID lock or DNA lock a mech to a certain user by interfacing the maintenance panel. This was extremely useful for limited who and what mechs went to, and the system is entirely gone. All weapons printed by the fabricator are unlocked, even a Visitor ID will let you fully function any mech.

Anyhow, most of the issues we encounter with combat mechs is, permissions. All you need is a command authorization or Research Director's stamp. This isn't really hard to get on a well staffed round, and 99% of the time it is requested, and sometimes paperwork can wait. Other times, there are no command at all, even during high-pop rounds. Robotics still pumps out a security mech when needed. For example, the Phoron Worm event. That event alone had 2 combat mechs pushed out, initially. One light with machineguns and lasers. One combat with machineguns and lasers. The light was destroyed, so another was made to replace it. The fourth mech was a mismatch, without weapons. These were greenlighted by command itself, so going around saying it needs to be regulated is redundant, in this specific scenario.

Furthermore, the hardsuits. These are already regulated by the fact Research needs to max out all levels, provide Robotics with an Advanced Scanning Module, and Mining to provide all of the material. This requires three specific staff on shift to output one item, usually at the end of the round when the antags are getting out of hand. I don't really see an issue with this, other than the fact, again. All hardsuits printed by Robotics other than the Cybersuit, lack suit locks, for some reason. Their locking function is entirely gone, similar to the Industrial suit. Using and ID on any of these suits says ' There is no locking mechanism'. Additionally, the two firearms you can put on a hardsuit. An Energy Carbine and a Taser. These are unlocked. A visitor ID can use them if they wanted. The Hazard hardsuit isn't even that overpowered. It is easily countered by ballistics and lasers, it isn't built for it anyway. It only has blunt and explosives resistances. The combat is similar to a Sol Marine Hardsuit. Once again, it is horrible against lasers, having nearly no protection against it, not to mention that it also has a severe movement penalty. Their sole purpose is to give the user certain EVA and suit functions, instead of specialized bodyarmor. Such as jetpacks, leg actuators, and the added ability of having a secondary carbine and a taser, when carrying your non-lethals isn't really a choice anymore. They also look intimidating, which in most cases causes more hostile actions, based on appearance.

[Waff-AI]

I'll try and answer these inquiries as I can find them, so sorry in advance if I miss something.

1 hour ago, VeteranGary said:

...However, I see better ways negating this. The new mech code by all means is still a WIP. Compared to the old-mech base, there were parts needed from RND just to make one mech, without it robotics was essentially useless. I see this was removed so robotics could actually output mechs. These parts included advanced scanners, etc, which hardsuit still need. Robotics cannot output hardsuits without the help of RnD doing both research and providing certain items...

Correct, which is why this is merely a band-aid barebones measure to curb mass production. I will look into adding other safeties- items needed to activate weapons that only spawn in the armory, alert level requirements, etc- as feedback and gameplay necessitate. Science requires mining to produce their weaponry, so it logically falls on robotics to require science and mining as well.

1 hour ago, VeteranGary said:

Anyway. Mechs as they currently are, miss the entire security permissions systems the oldmech base had. With this, you could ID lock or DNA lock a mech to a certain user by interfacing the maintenance panel. This was extremely useful for limited who and what mechs went to, and the system is entirely gone. All weapons printed by the fabricator are unlocked, even a Visitor ID will let you fully function any mech.

I will look into replacing this. As a precaution, I've just gone ahead and added the removal the ability of visitors to use mechs in general to this PR, being as they're off-duty employees without the authorization measures/jury-rigging/etc necessary to use sophisticated vehicles that would logically require some authorization or removal thereof.

1 hour ago, VeteranGary said:

Anyhow, most of the issues we encounter with combat mechs is, permissions. All you need is a command authorization or Research Director's stamp. This isn't really hard to get on a well staffed round, and 99% of the time it is requested, and sometimes paperwork can wait. Other times, there are no command at all, even during high-pop rounds. Robotics still pumps out a security mech when needed. For example, the Phoron Worm event. That event alone had 2 combat mechs pushed out, initially. One light with machineguns and lasers. One combat with machineguns and lasers. The light was destroyed, so another was made to replace it. The fourth mech was a mismatch, without weapons. These were greenlighted by command itself, so going around saying it needs to be regulated is redundant, in this specific scenario.

This seems like a contradictory statement, but, regardless, mechanical regulation will allow for command staff to make more informed calls to building weaponry than 'oh yeah just go ahead and do that'. The statement of 'paperwork can wait' is something best left to IC regulation, as you should logically be complaining to someone about this if it's happening in a canon situation and never actually gets filled out.

1 hour ago, VeteranGary said:

Furthermore, the hardsuits. These are already regulated by the fact Research needs to max out all levels, provide Robotics with an Advanced Scanning Module, and Mining to provide all of the material. This requires three specific staff on shift to output one item, usually at the end of the round when the antags are getting out of hand. I don't really see an issue with this, other than the fact, again. All hardsuits printed by Robotics other than the Cybersuit, lack suit locks, for some reason. 

See the above statement regarding re-adding access, insofar as 'I will do it eventually'. I don't see a problem with the requirement of three staff in the meantime, nor do I particularly care about the parts required, as they can be easily enough sourced by the 1:00 mark on a good day.

1 hour ago, VeteranGary said:

Additionally, the two firearms you can put on a hardsuit. An Energy Carbine and a Taser. These are unlocked. A visitor ID can use them if they wanted.

Similarly, visitors will no longer be able to use hardsuits outside civilian models. You're not working. You're a visitor. This makes no sense to me. You're an observer at your workplace, and if you want to 'get involved' there are plenty of other ways to do so. Sorry.

1 hour ago, VeteranGary said:

 Additionally, the two firearms you can put on a hardsuit. An Energy Carbine and a Taser. These are unlocked. A visitor ID can use them if they wanted. The Hazard hardsuit isn't even that overpowered. It is easily countered by ballistics and lasers, it isn't built for it anyway. It only has blunt and explosives resistances. The combat is similar to a Sol Marine Hardsuit. Once again, it is horrible against lasers, having nearly no protection against it, not to mention that it also has a severe movement penalty. Their sole purpose is to give the user certain EVA and suit functions, instead of specialized bodyarmor. Such as jetpacks, leg actuators, and the added ability of having a secondary carbine and a taser, when carrying your non-lethals isn't really a choice anymore. They also look intimidating, which in most cases causes more hostile actions, based on appearance.

This is all generally related to what I'll be blocking off in hardsuits, so I'll address it as such. I'm going to bold this for clarity: This is not a balance PR. This is a measure undertaken for basic security measures to prevent people manufacturing combat equipment when it wouldn't be necessary. Weaponry and these two RIGs are explicitly stated as being combat equipment, and I have treated them as any reasonable human being would treat munitions at a workplace. The only things I am blocking off are:
-Mech weaponry
-These two hardsuits(Combat and Hazard)
-The energy carbine.

Also: 

1 hour ago, VeteranGary said:

They also look intimidating, which in most cases causes more hostile actions, based on appearance.

Yes. I'm trying to stop that.

EDIT: The taser will be left in. It's a good nonlethal weapon and it has limited shots.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Waff-AI
clarity

[VeteranGary]

2 hours ago, Waff-AI said:

This is all generally related to what I'll be blocking off in hardsuits, so I'll address it as such. I'm going to bold this for clarity: This is not a balance PR. This is a measure undertaken for basic security measures to prevent people manufacturing combat equipment when it wouldn't be necessary. Weaponry and these two RIGs are explicitly stated as being combat equipment, and I have treated them as any reasonable human being would treat munitions at a workplace. The only things I am blocking off are:

This is fair, as long as it is counteractable by either a HoS, RD, or Captain. I can point out several individuals that abuse this, such as repeatedly crafting hazards and wearing them, even when security is intact. When I play robotics, I do assemble combat hardsuits when they are requested. Priority is to security, as my character isn't paid to get shot at, or willing to risk their life for their job. There is a threshold to this, however. If security is grossly understaffed, I'll go through the process of arming them, then arming myself. There are a handful of roboticists who fail at this, make a hazard for them self and wear it the entire remainder of the shift, even if the threat is small, or completely subdued. It's annoying to see as someone who plays the role seriously, though. At the same time I do it myself, if I am capable, but to be fair, who wouldn't? Cargo likes to supply themselves with guns. The ID lock isn't really a deterrent. It takes less than a minute of KA shots to destroy the crate, even with the basic one miners get. Research can output custom laser assemblies that are incredibly overpowered. Engineers can craft an assortment of makeshift weaponry, shotguns, SMGs, pistols, and crossbows. And medical has access to custom grenades, though they are generally a neutral department. Anyway, the point is that the station is a research station. Most people hired here have some sort of background that allows them to create many things, though as the game restricts it, lots of content is in the forms of weapons. Usually that is fine considering it is used for that purpose, but. I guess I would prefer to see better control that the oldmech base had. With the ability to lockdown mechs, add security protocols, etc. Outright placing them behind a command decision does enforce completed paperwork I guess, but that isn't going to stop the situations where 'the paperwork can wait'. That is solely and IC issue that still not many people go out of their way to report. Each time those roboticists arm themselves with their own suits, that is both an IC issue and an OOC one if they chose to go around and validhunt the antags, or wear it when there is no apparent threat, thought it really depends on the scenario.

[MalMalumam]

Perhaps you could make building combat mechs dependent on being in red alert?

[Waff-AI]

5 hours ago, VeteranGary said:

This is fair, as long as it is counteractable by either a HoS, RD, or Captain. I can point out several individuals that abuse this, such as repeatedly crafting hazards and wearing them, even when security is intact. When I play robotics, I do assemble combat hardsuits when they are requested. Priority is to security, as my character isn't paid to get shot at, or willing to risk their life for their job. There is a threshold to this, however. If security is grossly understaffed, I'll go through the process of arming them, then arming myself. There are a handful of roboticists who fail at this, make a hazard for them self and wear it the entire remainder of the shift, even if the threat is small, or completely subdued. It's annoying to see as someone who plays the role seriously, though. At the same time I do it myself, if I am capable, but to be fair, who wouldn't? Cargo likes to supply themselves with guns. The ID lock isn't really a deterrent. It takes less than a minute of KA shots to destroy the crate, even with the basic one miners get. Research can output custom laser assemblies that are incredibly overpowered. Engineers can craft an assortment of makeshift weaponry, shotguns, SMGs, pistols, and crossbows. And medical has access to custom grenades, though they are generally a neutral department. Anyway, the point is that the station is a research station. Most people hired here have some sort of background that allows them to create many things, though as the game restricts it, lots of content is in the forms of weapons. Usually that is fine considering it is used for that purpose, but. I guess I would prefer to see better control that the oldmech base had. With the ability to lockdown mechs, add security protocols, etc. Outright placing them behind a command decision does enforce completed paperwork I guess, but that isn't going to stop the situations where 'the paperwork can wait'. That is solely and IC issue that still not many people go out of their way to report. Each time those roboticists arm themselves with their own suits, that is both an IC issue and an OOC one if they chose to go around and validhunt the antags, or wear it when there is no apparent threat, thought it really depends on the scenario.

I'll see what I can do for returning old security stuff, but I'm a full-time student with crippling juststartedlearningbyonditis. This is a quick, easy, and effective solution.

53 minutes ago, MalMalumam said:

Perhaps you could make building combat mechs dependent on being in red alert?

While I initially leaned toward an alert level locking system, that presented the problem of antagonists being able to spam-lower the alert level.

[Melariara]

4 hours ago, MalMalumam said:

Perhaps you could make building combat mechs dependent on being in red alert?

The problem with this as well is that it relies on having two command or just, anyone with the rights to do it. Which is somewhat impossible to do at dead hour.

[DronzTheWolf]

19 hours ago, Waff-AI said:

This seems cool, but I'm both not that good of a coder and unwilling to curb the power of antag roboticists to that degree. 

I'm also working on an anti-xenofauna mech weapon a la the phase guns from other Baycode derivatives, although from my time as a mining main I've found the carp hunters never used mechs or hardsuit weaponry.

My point was more of the miners who'd go get a gamer RIG so they can take on sharks without breaking every bone in their body and bleeding out halfway back to the station. 

[Waff-AI]

4 hours ago, DronzTheWolf said:

My point was more of the miners who'd go get a gamer RIG so they can take on sharks without breaking every bone in their body and bleeding out halfway back to the station. 

While I support their efforts, I should point out that their job is hit rock, not hit fish. They'll just have to complain to a head for them now.

EDIT: The combat rigs also have worse melee resist than the industrial. They're not even powergaming correctly when they do this. Get an industrial, they have a good sprite and give you benefits as a miner.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Waff-AI
clarity, efficacy

[DronzTheWolf]

8 hours ago, Waff-AI said:

While I support their efforts, I should point out that their job is hit rock, not hit fish. They'll just have to complain to a head for them now.

EDIT: The combat rigs also have worse melee resist than the industrial. They're not even powergaming correctly when they do this. Get an industrial, they have a good sprite and give you benefits as a miner.

Agree. Industrial superior, just because my aesthetic is better than the unga suit. 

[Snakebittenn]

I would support this if only mechs were not complete garbage.
If you just focus fire on their arms, or yknow use the ion rifle. Like even without the ion rifle, if you just shoot two laser rifles (or two carbines) at the mechs arms it just becomes a giant paperweight that can at best flicker a floodlight at you or walk away.
Plus mechs still have a shit turn speed and have no real answer to being in melee. I have seen a combat mech be taken down by 3 heisters just slapping it up with telebatons (so long as you don't get infront of it.)
Plus heavy mechs have like, only enough battery power to get them maybe down 3 hallways, and that's with a hyper cell. If you're gonna fight with a heavy one it better be right outside the garage.
And if you get it back to the garage you better either have 15 uninterrupted minutes of charging, or a spare battery that also took 15 minutes and multiple brown outs to charge.
Want to get out of the garage? Best waste your back slot on a quick entry system or not get shot at/stunned while ejecting out to hit the button.
Want to get up a z level? Better be okay with having the weak as fuck hover thrusters that will get bricked in like 5 laser shots.
Want ion resistance? Better be okay with having only 'ok' armor at best against literally anything else.
The only time a mech is even remotely good for combat purposes is if has the TCFL gauss thumper.
And even in the case of the OP, where it's a validhunting roboticist, you need either multiple mechs to do anything effective, or at least have a remote chair so your ass doesn't nearly die with the mech or get captured. Pretty much every antag has some kind of answer for a mech besides revs/loyalists or solo traitors. Even then, I'd rather just give them those options.
Mechs are a joke and the combat hardsuits robotics can make is an infinitely greater issue. They seem scary but that's about it.