Warden Check-in & Prisoner ghost-role

[NerdyVampire]

So intuitively prisoners are taken to the Odin, but we have this nice sublevel mining facility for prisoners to use so that kinda contradicts the idea that we have 0 long-term prisoners. The issue is that we cannot have prisoners without a warden or HoS. But perhaps we can do something else.

Consider this: We add a way for a Warden to 'check in' as they arrive on job, as part of their duties. This unlocks 1 or 2 ghost-roles for prisoners that spawn inside the prison with a randomly generated security record. Perhaps they are close to being released, or perhaps they are supposed to spend their day mining away in the penal colony. In any case, these are roles for volunteer prisoners to provide RP for wardens, psychologists, service jobs like the chaplain/librarian/chef, even command staff that might want to be 'benevolent' and offer them a shorter sentence and imminent release.

This could also provide gimmick-targets for traitors that want to release prisoners or want to argue that the penal colony is inhumane, etc.

Lastly, prisoners spawned should be allowed to antag and seek to get free from the prison, if they decide to or if they are freed by antags. Depending on their generated security record, this may or may not be reasonable.

Alright, that is my idea. Discuss.

[ClemTheDuck]

I love this idea so much. Adds more to do as sec besides go and shoot carp and greimorians. Im always for having some more ghost roles around. 

[WickedCybs]

The mining facility contradicts nothing when it comes to the nature of the brig, it's there so anyone detained that shift has something to do if they want. It is also rather unbelievable that the Aurora would have to contain long-term prisoners, especially violent ones. The Aurora is not a private prison, it is a research station. The brig is for holding. Prisoners would go to a proper facility that isn't the Aurora.

This aside, I very much would not want volunteer self-antags, nor do I want warden players to have their rounds held hostage when they could be roleplaying with actual characters instead. 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by WickedCybs

[Bear]

I have to echo what cybs said here sadly. As much as I like the idea, it's hard to find it believable for the Aurora. Left over inmates would, however, make more sense in the nbt. Though I see this being easily griefed or abused.

[NerdyVampire]

1 hour ago, WickedCybs said:

The mining facility contradicts nothing when it comes to the nature of the brig, it's there so anyone detained that shift has something to do if they want

Perhaps, but I've never seen it used because noone ever gets imprisoned in time for that to make sense, or have any initiative to do it. Early-spawned prisoners could very well cut a deal with the commander/captain to get released sometime into the round for doing work and presenting results to the warden.

2 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

It is also rather unbelievable that the Aurora would have to contain long-term prisoners, especially violent ones.

Perhaps the penal colony beneath the prison is exactly the reason we have these prisoners on Aurora. Free labor, free mining.

2 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

This aside, I very much would not want volunteer self-antags

We already have this though with bluespace golems, escape pod survivors and burglars. The prisoner is actually the most logical self-antag to have, and the weakest since they start entirely on security's terms and gain no uplink or special powers.

2 hours ago, WickedCybs said:

nor do I want warden players to have their rounds held hostage

Ah, I can see that the way I phrase it makes it sound like the warden is expected to do this every shift. No, the idea with the check-in is that the warden makes the decision on whether to have prisoners this way or not. Maybe it's an extended round and security is staffed for it, or maybe the warden just chose to play warden mainly because they like this prison feel, and want to get on it.

[WickedCybs]

4 hours ago, NerdyVampire said:

Perhaps, but I've never seen it used because noone ever gets imprisoned in time for that to make sense, or have any initiative to do it. Early-spawned prisoners could very well cut a deal with the commander/captain to get released sometime into the round for doing work and presenting results to the warden.

This is because it is more of a novelty. The gameplay loop for a prisoner using the mining IPCs is standing around and putting resources into bins. The only times the "mining" IPCs are used is to assist in an escape essentially when sec is inattentive. Just because it exists doesn't mean we need a ghost spawned prisoner to use it. I'd honestly find it rather disappointing ias well f people started to be forced to do it too as part of a "deal." Not only would this not happen much if at all, but consigning someone to do basically nothing for a while seems counterproductive to roleplaying.

Work in exchange for release is also out of scope. Sure, being cooperative can lower the length though this isn't really applied after the fact. NT is not the government (on the surfacelevel) and the Aurora is not a private prison as mentioned. Forcing it to be one makes no sense. Why would this be in the station's control? It's not really a thing even now when sec ends up having people detained. Closest would be parole.

4 hours ago, NerdyVampire said:

Perhaps the penal colony beneath the prison is exactly the reason we have these prisoners on Aurora. Free labor, free mining.

I do not see this as a good reason to put prisoners on a research station that has no way or reason to accommodate longterm detainees. The brig is designed for holding, the charges also reflect this. There is nothing that says to hold someone indefinitely, but there are charges that say to hold until transfer. 

4 hours ago, NerdyVampire said:

We already have this though with bluespace golems, escape pod survivors and burglars. The prisoner is actually the most logical self-antag to have, and the weakest since they start entirely on security's terms and gain no uplink or special powers.

That's not right. Self antagging bluespace golems and escape pod survivors can be safely ahelped. Burglar pod survivors are actual antags and get access to the burglar uplink. Self antagging is not a good term as an aside, a prisoner should absolutely never be doing it. If hypothetically the Aurora had to handle a long term prisoner there is no way I would be able to believe they are a violent offender as I said earlier. Non-violent detainees are about the most I could see being argued for, yet still. The Aurora is not a prison. Why are dangerous convicts being shipped out to it? What reason would the prisoner have to even try to escape? It's a space station. The security department is not staffed with correctional officers. Its purpose is not to manage these people.

It already gets extremely old when those in the brig for even the most minor of offenses give it their all to self antag and escape the brig. I do realize it gets pretty boring in there though. Reality is, there's not a lot for them to do.

4 hours ago, NerdyVampire said:

Ah, I can see that the way I phrase it makes it sound like the warden is expected to do this every shift. No, the idea with the check-in is that the warden makes the decision on whether to have prisoners this way or not. Maybe it's an extended round and security is staffed for it, or maybe the warden just chose to play warden mainly because they like this prison feel, and want to get on it.

I'm still of the opinion that it's not worth having and is only going to reduce roleplay for essentially the entire department. Criminal characters are already possible, so if people want to play one they should do so then, as an actual character. Roles that rely on another role existing are very hard to work out and a prisoner role is certainly going to require proper attention so they aren't left out in the cold.

I've also been playing sec a lot lately, and I get my enjoyment from roleplaying with the crew in general. Not with ghost roles. I would rather keep it that way rather than having to potentially accommodate people liable to soap the warden and run out of the brig. Because, this isn't going to be something that only affects the warden or commander. 

For the idea to work at all, we would be in big need of a setting change like Bear mentioned, forcing it into the station as it is would just be terrible, to be frank. The important distinction here is that sec enforces the corporate regulations, not Biesel law. On a ship based setting, the idea makes more sense because there might be nowhere else to transfer them to in the meanwhile. Some list of do's and don'ts for those who want to try the role would also be nice. Additionally, ghostspawned roles have no persistence. At best, you can replicate appearances and names. So, I believe it would need to be a role you can actually select and with the same range of customization other realized characters have, barring maybe the loadout.

Edited July 6, 2021 by WickedCybs
addition

[niennab]

What I'm afraid of with a suggestion like this is that it's going to be boring for anyone who queues up to be the prisoner and annoying for anyone queued up as the warden. Security seldom roleplays with anyone brigged once they're processed, and I don't blame them for it either. There's usually more going on that interacting with someone in the brig is difficult if not impossible. In the IC context I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't really suite the Aurora as well.

[Eple]

Wouldnt mind spawning as a prisoner character of corse would understand it wouldnt work without security but still

[VeteranGary]

Not a very logical mechanic, has been loosely suggested before but. Nothing that can be reasonably sustained on a research station. However, something loosely similar to this is perfectly viable and I've already seen a character do it. Prisoner's working menial jobs as their parole sentence, their only interaction with security is that they must check in/out each shift, and any further charges is harsher for them. 

Not to mention, it is incredibly difficult to find something for them to do, especially for a full length round, or if the warden has to cryo. Sure you can have them walk around on parole, though that basically defeats the purpose of them, making them ghostrole assistant slots, which we already have; golems, and I have a gut feeling that these will just be used as a ghost role antag slot. The warden already has a pretty busy role, even if it doesn't seem like it, keeping prisoner's processed, armory organized and dispensed as required, watching cameras and providing auxiliary support on communications. Adding prisoners isn't the greatest idea, since not every single warden has the opportunity or the availability to really monitor/keep watch of them.

In a different setting this could be fine, however the one we have is not designed for it. The communal area is by far one of the most boring and bleak places to be stuck, not to mention a cell, for the duration of a 2 hour round. The Aurora already has crewmembers with criminal records as long as someone who's been to prison anyway.

[geeves]

would there be interest in making it an opt in role for the warden, kinda like the merchant's assistant, where you press a button and a ghost role opens? if the warden cryos the prisoner can go cryo too, no sweat

[Lordnesh]

What about instead of prisoners, we have some sort of community service where people with minor offenses, or with good behavior, are sent to the aurora for free labor?

Basically, they'd just be assistants with more oversight and some background.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Lordnesh

[Carver]

I'd open to prisoners only if we started phasing a few low-income jobs to be replaced with prison labour: i.e. miners, janitors, etc. But this would perhaps be a bit strong of a tonal change (though far less grimdark than cyborgs, funnily enough) and no matter the implementation they shouldn't be self-antagging (only working with antags or rolling antag themselves).

There's a reason most servers with prisoner roles go 'don't try to break out every round', no one wants to deal with that shit all the time.

[Lmwevil]

I remember suggesting this on discord and being called an idiot a year ago, maybe this year we'll get lucky 

[Ickysoup]

+1  like the Idea. Im sure someone important  can workout the finer lore details later. More options to rp with the flow like with golems would be rad. Not wanting to commit to a whole a round for what ever reason and just want to kill 10-20-30 minutes with what ever RNGJesus deals you is always nice to have as an option, and having it as an Opt-in for wardens is best the best way to handle this.

 

 

 

[Susan]

This is a research station, not a prison station. The brig is designed for short-term detainment, not long term holding. It's already been said but this idea is incompatible with the way our entire premise of a setting is set up. NBT might be different - but the Aurora? We're security officers, not correctional officers.

[Marlon P.]

I have four suggested tweaks. The first is to give them public access radios. The second is to describe the 'prisoners' doing space-based community service, the third is to give them assistant level access, and the final is to put a tracking ankle-bracelet on them for the Warden to always know where they are.

Then it is similar to parole but they can re-enter the brig and go out mining. And being in an ostensibly rehabilitation program there is RP and justifiable IC and administrative disincentive to misbehave.

There are two major draws to a job: Socialization and Mechanics. On opposite ends would be the xenobiologist, which is a lot of mechanics with little (time for) socialization, and the other is bartender which is almost entirely socialization.

Mining is pretty half and half. You have simple mechanics and you're out a lot but you also can still socialize on the radio with your department friends.

How does the prisoner job satisfy socialization? Or, how can being a prisoner be made fun?

Prisoners aren't normally allowed to be chatty, and the mechanics of mining by themselves may not be enough to keep people interested.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Marlon P.

[Lordnesh]

Could combine community service with the IR process, and have characters be forced to play as this role for some time (couple days, or a week, at most).

[Zer0Winds]

I mean, in all honesty, everyone's hung up on the Research part of the station's purposes, but not the Mining part.

It's not just a Research Station. It's specifically, a Phoron Mining and Research Station. And I have no doubts that NT would be willing to make some cheap labor mine for them on the station. I mean, come on, Cargo already acts like they are anyway sometimes.

I get why some people think it doesn't make sense. The brig is... a brig. I don't know about you guys, but I think of a Brig as a temporary holding, punishment thing, for Ships, and Stations. It's not a prison... its a Brig. That's marginally circumvented by making it not a permanent prisoner, like people are thinking it is. It's just someone who's on the station, temporarily, as a brigged inmate.

I do believe, it'd be interesting for Extended, for Wardens, at least. Security is fully capable of being RPed, both Secret and Extended, but sometimes, someone might want a bit of a push in a direction.

As for "it'd be boring in the brig" well, that's why its opt-in... and there's a cryogenic pod in the Communal Area. Your definition of fun isn't always the way someone else would have fun. Personally, I would do it... It may seem boring to you, but also to be honest, so is Botany to me, but people have fun with that.

I'd support this, but I do understand the "brig isn't a permanent holding cell" argument. I could counter it, by saying... it's not a permanent prisoner. I don't know, sounds cool, in theory at least.

[WickedCybs]

7 hours ago, Zer0Winds said:

I mean, in all honesty, everyone's hung up on the Research part of the station's purposes, but not the Mining part.

It's not just a Research Station. It's specifically, a Phoron Mining and Research Station. And I have no doubts that NT would be willing to make some cheap labor mine for them on the station. I mean, come on, Cargo already acts like they are anyway sometimes.

This doesn't really change much. Cargo is the cheap labour with an endless amount of bodies ready to take up vacated position and ready to work for peanuts. Cargo is filled with criminal characters and it makes sense for them to be in that department. Miners are not particularly valuable to NT, as well.

There's also nothing a prisoner character can actually really do unless they're released from the brig to work somewhere, which would require changing the ID if you don't just want them to be a janitor or something. The prison bots don't really mine, they pick up shards created by two machines they stand around by.

Everything else you have said has kinda been covered already, so I am just focusing on this single snippet. I'd be more inclined to think it would not be a wasted addition if there was simply more they could do. Yes, people are supposed to roleplay but I will not be expecting anyone, especially those who utilize the roles to talk for hours in a box if there's not much else going on. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by WickedCybs
some extra

[greenjoe]

On 06/07/2021 at 21:35, Lordnesh said:

What about instead of prisoners, we have some sort of community service where people with minor offenses, or with good behavior, are sent to the aurora for free labor?

Basically, they'd just be assistants with more oversight and some background.

I've seen a janitor character who does this, they check in at sec to have papers signed, then have more papers signed when they are done

[goolie]

On 07/07/2021 at 23:23, Lordnesh said:

Could combine community service with the IR process, and have characters be forced to play as this role for some time (couple days, or a week, at most).

This sounds super interesting and would be more engaging than one-round ghost spawned prisoners. Gives a little more oomph when it comes to punishing people too.

[KingOfThePing]

On 08/07/2021 at 00:23, Lordnesh said:

Could combine community service with the IR process, and have characters be forced to play as this role for some time (couple days, or a week, at most).

How to drive people away from the server 101.

Not a fan 

[Lordnesh]

3 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

How to drive people away from the server 101.

Not a fan 

And telling people they can't play their character for X amount of days doesn't? What about forcing only certain players to have to earn, in-game, the ability to play jobs above civilian grade? There are all kinds of reasons people play, or don't play, and I hardly see this being as big of an issue as you seen to think it is.

Regardless. If that is an issue, just make it something you have to opt into. Maybe as an alternative to character banishment? Problem solved.

[NerdyVampire]

On 06/07/2021 at 21:11, geeves said:

would there be interest in making it an opt in role for the warden, kinda like the merchant's assistant, where you press a button and a ghost role opens? if the warden cryos the prisoner can go cryo too, no sweat

That was the initial suggestion, the Warden has to actively choose to enable the role (I clarified later). The warden is not forced to do it, no players are forced to be prisoners. It is voluntary on both sides. If a prisoner opts in, I imagine there should be an announcement type message on the security channel though.
 

[NerdyVampire]

I'm glad there are so many views on this and suggestions on how to make it work. I feel that it should be possible for us to support such a role and even make it interesting, and seems there are ideas how to do this. In regards to it not being a prison that's true. I think perhaps the argument that these aren't permanent prisoners is a viable one? That would also mean that we should only have prisoners with reasonable offenses who have somehow been allowed to stay on station for one reason or other - maybe transport was too cumbersome, perhaps their Head of Staff interjected for them, or maybe the period of imprisonment was only 24 hours so it makes more sense for them to stay here.