Disallow ghosts or those of the observer or in-lobby mob type from being able to vote for crew transfer

[Scheveningen]

As the title says. Also includes being able to participate in the vote if you're in the lobby or a ghost.

The reasoning behind my suggestion is to further discourage the ability to call a crew transfer from being either a "this round looks boring I want to restart it" button or a "I'm dead please restart" button. The purpose of an observer is to do just that, observe. They have no business judging whether the round should end in the next 15 minutes, that's not up to them to decide. This has the adverse benefit of also preventing people who recently died due to in-game events from being able to influence the round ending because they died.

If the crew transfer function is meant to exist in a manner that says "I've been in this round for awhile and I want it to end", then it should be reflected that way in only permitting those who are in-game and playing as any role to choose in trying to end the round the CT way, because for them the round isn't interesting enough for them to want them to continue for that round.

As another caveat, if you're a latejoiner who hops into the round late just to take your chances at starting a vote, you have to be playing for 10 minutes in the round before you can do so, more than ample time to decide if you want to call a vote to prematurely end the round.

[Fiskap]

Yes please, I'm tired of shitters starting CT votes despite that they never even played during that round. They really shouldn't influence the current round.

[Skull132]

This got posted to #administrators by Itzal. So it'll be discussed.

My nudging question would be. Disallow them from voting, or starting votes? Cause those two can have different effects, and that should be considered.

[SomeoneOutTher3]

As the title says. Also includes being able to participate in the vote if you're in the lobby or a ghost.

The reasoning behind my suggestion is to further discourage the ability to call a crew transfer from being either a "this round looks boring I want to restart it" button or a "I'm dead please restart" button. The purpose of an observer is to do just that, observe. They have no business judging whether the round should end in the next 15 minutes, that's not up to them to decide. This has the adverse benefit of also preventing people who recently died due to in-game events from being able to influence the round ending because they died.

If the crew transfer function is meant to exist in a manner that says "I've been in this round for awhile and I want it to end", then it should be reflected that way in only permitting those who are in-game and playing as any role to choose in trying to end the round the CT way, because for them the round isn't interesting enough for them to want them to continue for that round.

As another caveat, if you're a latejoiner who hops into the round late just to take your chances at starting a vote, you have to be playing for 10 minutes in the round before you can do so, more than ample time to decide if you want to call a vote to prematurely end the round.

As Skull said, preventing observers from voting during a CT vote,but not starting it, would accomplish the objective of disallowing non-players from being able to judge the round. With that new system, observers would be able to start a vote, but not take part in it, essentially putting the CT option "on the table" for others to judge.

[Garnascus]

I reckon we will end up with a lot more three hour rounds if this change goes through, but if people are having fun is that an issue? The points in the OP are excellent and after considering it for a bit i am inclined to support it. Especially on the basis of "observers do not get to vote". The only nagging feeling i have is how the server will deal with more rounds that go longer. That is all based on my assumption that could of course be wrong though.

[Shadow]

Personally I am in support of this.

Agreeing with the points the OP made.

[TrickingTrapster]

Rounds taking longer is at least for 70% a good thing. Malf AIs actually getting a bit of decent research in, vampire getting their blood up to speed in less of a rush, changelings having less need to murder everyone they see just to get their points in time. I think it would benefit a lot, actually, since most, if not all, antags need to good bit of buildup, for which 2 hours is not enough. Of cours,e I can't speak for extended rounds, but I'm quite sure that will sort itself. If the round is boring for the people playing, they will end it with a vote. I think it's a positive change.

[Scheveningen]

This got posted to #administrators by Itzal. So it'll be discussed.

My nudging question would be. Disallow them from voting, or starting votes? Cause those two can have different effects, and that should be considered.

 

Both, I should've made that clear in my post, apologies.

[SierraKomodo]

I'd be willing to see how this goes in practice, and provide feedback afterwards.

[Synnono]

I'd be willing to give this a shot. Though, I feel like dying shouldn't magically exclude you from being able to vote, too. If you were participating up until 1:59 then get headgored, maybe you DO want a new round and that should possibly be valid. People who never spawned, though, or people barely paying attention in the lobby, should probably not have the same say. Can it even be broken out like that?

Edit: If it can't be broken out like that, would we consider something like shortening the respawn timer to let people back into these longer rounds as other characters?

[Scheveningen]

I'd be willing to give this a shot. Though, I feel like dying shouldn't magically exclude you from being able to vote, too. If you were participating up until 1:59 then get headgored, maybe you DO want a new round and that should possibly be valid. People who never spawned, though, or people barely paying attention in the lobby, should probably not have the same say. Can it even be broken out like that?

Edit: If it can't be broken out like that, would we consider something like shortening the respawn timer to let people back into these longer rounds as other characters?

 

That would be pretty situational to become such a problem. As mentioned, crew transfer shouldn't be a "I dead please restart" button. If you get killed, that sucks, to be sure, but you have to deal with the cards being dealt to you.

[ShameOnTurtles]

I'd be willing to give this a shot. Though, I feel like dying shouldn't magically exclude you from being able to vote, too.

 

I agree with the original suggestion but also this. I'd make it so that people who are dead can start/participate in votes, along with people who are alive, while people who observe or are in the lobby cannot. On the argument of:

As mentioned, crew transfer shouldn't be a "I dead please restart" button. If you get killed, that sucks, to be sure, but you have to deal with the cards being dealt to you.

 

The crew transfer would still be a majority vote, right? (Between 2 and 3 hours of course) The only rounds that dead people even come close to overtaking alive people are really terrible murderbone rounds that everyone wants to escape, probably with only a couple exceptions, so this concern wouldn't really come into play. It's very rare to see more dead than alive people. Past the 3 hour mark, the same thing with the majority would apply.

[witchbells]

Restricting players from voting is not something I can support regardless of the circumstance.

Voting is meant to be started by anyone on the server, and ought to be freely taken part of by anyone on the server.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

My vote is not invalid just because I'm a ghost. It is already extremely common for rounds to go beyond 2 hours. If I'm observing a round and it's 1:59, then I want to start fresh with a new round so I can join in and play. I vote to transfer because I want to play but it's rarely fun to join in on a round already 2 hours in. Stripping my right to vote will be frustrating, and I bet it will negatively impact our population.

[CommanderXor]

I see the points of both sides. The good and the bad. But I have a question. If a antag such as a ninja or wizard murders literally everyone on the station (Let's say it wasn't gank somehow, admins say it was okay or similar). Then what? Just sit around until the auto-transfer that happens at like 8 hours in?

[Shadow]

We'll test this for a week when the next update happens.

People that are allowed to vote:

People that are playing.

People that played but died/ghosted.

People that aren't allowed to vote:

People in the lobby.

People that are observing but didn't play before.

We will gather feedback the week we are testing it.

[DatBerry]

stuff

 

That would be pretty situational to become such a problem. As mentioned, crew transfer shouldn't be a "I dead please restart" button. If you get killed, that sucks, to be sure, but you have to deal with the cards being dealt to you.

 

But they may have been wishing to vote for a transfer before they died, then got shot, i would prefer to have this in effect before the 3 hours mark, and afterwards, everyone is allowed to vote.

[Bygonehero]

How to bypass the restrictions

1. Observe

2. Become mouse/drone

3.Vote

4.?????

5.CT occurs

[Skull132]

How to bypass the restrictions

1. Observe

2. Become mouse/drone

3.Vote

4.?????

5.CT occurs

 

Easy enough to make a counter to that.

[UnknownMurder]

I'm actually against the idea of restricting the observers starting the vote AND being able to vote. People observing the round can receive information of what is actually happening in the round that no one ICly & OOCly knows , e.g. Antags unable to do anything, and the situation is beyond recovery & players are unable to call emergency shuttle. Furthermore, it doesn't necessarily always means that the character's player had died ICly wants to start a vote. There is countless of reasons of why players could be starting a vote as observer. Do we need to break down and interrogate the player why CT should be called? No. Everyone in the server are players, observers are even players, observers have the ability to change the tide of the roleplay. There is no reason for this to be added.

Although, speaking of politics voting... If this does get added, (and I'll be very pissed with others) we need to be observant of ideal of Majority Rule.

Am I the only person who is completely opposed to the idea and is a conservative?

 

How to bypass the restrictions

1. Observe

2. Become mouse/drone

3.Vote

4.?????

5.CT occurs

 

Easy enough to make a counter to that.

 

I came up with two methods.

How to bypass the restrctions v2

1. Observe

2. Ask players playing to start a vote

3. Vote

4. ???

5. CT occurs

How to bypass the restrictions v3

1. Observe

2. Do something for thirty minutes

3. "Respawn"

4. Start Vote

5. Vote

6. ???

7. CT occurs

8. If CT does not occur, head back to step 2 ICly wise

These are the methods that can be used to defeat the purpose of this suggestion.

[Nanako]

i dont know how to feel about this.

I'm in favour of anything that will make rounds longer, but i cant say whether or not this will cause that

[Skull132]

I came up with two methods.

How to bypass the restrctions v2

1. Observe

2. Ask players playing to start a vote

3. Vote

4. ???

5. CT occurs

How to bypass the restrictions v3

1. Observe

2. Do something for thirty minutes

3. "Respawn"

4. Start Vote

5. Vote

6. ???

7. CT occurs

8. If CT does not occur, head back to step 2 ICly wise

 

I'd suggest stop wanting to sound like a smartass. The second will not work because new_player mobs are unable to start votes, as per discussion. The first is circumvention of mechanics which will get you in trouble for.

[TrickingTrapster]

Nanako, remember we have the 2/3rd majority rule until 3 hours, right? I'm pretty sure that in most cases the thing that tips the balance in favor of CT within those hours is observing players wanting to start fresh in a new round.

[SomeoneOutTher3]

This reminds me of the whole "NO VOTE INFLUENCE11111111111111" bullshit that we had last year. What a vote does is put the option of transfer on the table for the rest of the playerbase to judge, and the new voting system should be reverted soon.

[Scheveningen]

This reminds me of the whole "NO VOTE INFLUENCE11111111111111" bullshit that we had last year. What a vote does is put the option of transfer on the table for the rest of the playerbase to judge, and the new voting system should be reverted soon.

And why do you think that?