[2 dismissal] Remove Extended from Secret Rotation [Binned: 19/03/2018]

[MattAtlas]

I was going to take it point by point but there is way too many repeating arguments.

1: "People expect antags and don't do exciting stuff"

Some people are paranoid and their own paranoia cripples their enjoyment of the game. This is a problem with those players, not extended being in secret.

Stop being worried about winning the game, take what you're dealt.

 

This was never my argument to begin with. I said I vote extended because I want there to be an antag, not because I expect there to be an antag. If there's no antag, I don't mind, I roleplay normally, it doesn't cripple my enjoyment of the game, I don't become paranoid, I don't literally spend every single second of my IC existence looking for antags, I just play the game normally, and I just find it annoying that I voted for secret and I get an extended round that I didn't want instead.

 

2: "I don't want to put effort into roleplay when an antag is around being silly"

Exactly what JB said, antags interrupting the common day on the station is exactly what this game is about, this isn't about the station preparing for 2 hours to stomp the antag.

And if someone doesn't put effort into their RP just because of a gamemode, well that's just plain wrong.

This is exactly how "He didn't put enough RP into killing me" issues rise, because one person thinks they don't need to try because of the gamemode. And I remember quite distinctly everyone in this thread had an issue with this atleast once.

 

I never said this, so I won't reply to this argument, maybe someone else who actually did say this can reply to it.

 

3: "People vote secret for antags"

I don't vote secret for antags, Lynx doesn't, Arrow doesn't, does this mean we don't belong to "The People"?

Don't generalize.

 

Alright, my bad. Let me fix it.

"From what I can tell, most people seem to vote secret because they want there to be an antag, or feel like playing a round with antags." It doesn't change anything.

 

4: "We're just removing extended from the rotation."

First they came for Extended, and I did not speak out—

Because I did not like Extended.

Then they came for the Ninja, and I did not speak out—

Because I did not like the Ninja.

Then they came for the Changeling, and I did not speak out—

Because I did not like Changeling.

Then they came for traitor—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

You'll notice that I said "it's just removing extended from the rotation" because of the passive aggressiveness from both sides, not because it's a good argument to remove extended.

[Coalf]

-Death by a thousand cuts-

I said "too many repeating arguments", wasn't pointing directly at you.

The only one aimed at you was the "The People" one, with which I say.

That's your opinion.

[Azande]

I don't vote secret for antags, I vote secret because I know I have the chance of extended - while still having the majority of the player base ready up and play (about 30% leave/don't join if Extended is voted) .

Please don't remove extended from secret.

[BurgerBB]

"By voting secret you consent to every gamemode in secret."

And you know what? I'm doing something about it I'm making a policy suggestion because I do not like secret extended. This is a thread where I, who do not like the idea of secret extended, am making a suggestion thread to remove secret extended.

"Extended is low chance."

Doesn't excuse the fact that it still happens and still can be rolled. Chance is meaningless when the issue is the fact that it does happen.

"I don't like ninja, I don't like wizard, I despise changeling and I dislike malf. Yet I still vote secret, because I want to be surprised."

And that's good for you dude. There are a ton of shit gamemodes that need improvement yet I still vote secret only because it gives me a chance at something good. Voting for a specific gamemode NEVER happens unless people decide to meme and vote for crossfire.

"Some people are paranoid and their own paranoia cripples their enjoyment of the game. This is a problem with those players, not extended being in secret.

Stop being worried about winning the game, take what you're dealt."

This isn't about winning, my dude. If I wanted to win the game 24/7 I'd vote extended because the crew wins every round. It's not the fact that I'm paranoid about getting killed, but I'm just paranoid about a garbage antag ruining the round by pursuing quality gimmicks such as kidnapping someone and having them broadcast their torture rp over comms. How am I supposed to roleplay with a friend when a complete stranger is whining about getting their arms cut off via comms without breaking character? There is only so many times you can say "OH NO I FEEL BAD FOR THEM." and get terribly numb from this sort of thing.

"bu-bu-but people are going to remove ninja/changling/malf next!"

Ninja and changeling are shitty gamemodes that can be fixed by improving the gamemode, and not outright removing it. We're simply asking people to consider the removal of secret from extended. We're not even asking for the removal of extended, just it being gone from secret.

"People vote secret for antags"

You know what? How about we put our money where our mouth is. Make a poll about it. See what the players have to say.

[Zundy]

I like having extended in the secret lists.

[LanceLynxx]

if you're changing behavior based on game mode meta, you are the problem.

You should treat every round like it was extended. Antag ruins your gimmick? Try again next round. And so on and so forth.

Literally how the game is meant to be played, why is this even a discussion

[Butterrobber202]

[mention]Coalf[/mention] that "MASSIVE CHANCE YOU'LL GET ANYTHING BUT EXTENDED" is wrong. You didn't take into account that some game modes are prevented by spawning based on the current number of players. So the lower the ready player count, the higher the chance of extended is. If we look at the discord, almost every other round is extended.

Lets take a look at #game_status for March 11 through March 12

 

 

 

Do you notice something?

[Alberyk]

@Coalf that "MASSIVE CHANCE YOU'LL GET ANYTHING BUT EXTENDED" is wrong. You didn't take into account that some game modes are prevented by spawning based on the current number of players. So the lower the ready player count, the higher the chance of extended is. If we look at the discord, almost every other round is extended.

Lets take a look at #game_status for March 11 through March 12

 

 

 

Do you notice something?

 

Pretty sure that at least two of them were voted due to events, and one was after a really long and violent event.

[Faris]

Why is this a thing? I understand that it's a HRP server but I don't think I've ever heard someone go "Oh, I'm glad it was extended that round!" in a secret round.

If people want extended, they'll vote extended. I vote extended sometimes.

 

 

There's not much empirical evidence in this statement. Some are happy, some are not, that's how it is.

 

You see, the problem with that is people will always expect a secret gamemode and not extended.

 

All game modes within secret are a secret gamemode, this does not exclude extended.

 

If people vote secret they will expect antags no matter what you tell them. They voted secret because they want antags, so they'll expect there to be antags. You can expect a round to have antags without metagaming too.

 

True, you can expect antagonists without metagaming or changing your behavior, but secret does not entitle you to antagonists. And not everyone votes for secret because they want antagonists, that's generalizing the population without data to support this. Personally, I vote secret as while I do have the power to view almost any detail I want, I too want to play a round with surprises, to be surprised by the actions, to be able to give the benefit of the doubt without subconsciously jumping to conclusions, removing extended from the secret rotation to me would most likely not with intention but subconsciously adapts me to the sure knowledge of antagonist presence.

 

Voting for specific gamemodes is busted because there are so many variants (A-type of antag, B-type of antag, C-type of antag, A+B antags, A+C antags, B+C antags, D-type of antag! B+D! A+D! D+C!) that it's impossible for any of them to win a vote even though people overwhelmingly want SOME antag presence rather than extended or even the possibility of extended (implied by the secret gamemode).

 

Not entirely true again. While not often, I do see specific round types that are not extended win, though admittedly it's usually crossfire or on low population rounds other game modes. Something that I've observed.

 

Here is a problem. People - particularly command staff - often like to run events that require some coordination such as a big party at the bar, or some sort of contest in the holodeck during extended. This is not the case when the gamemode is voted secret because they know their event which again, takes time and effort to get together, will probably have to be canceled due to antag actions.

 

Not entirely a problem but there is some truth in this statement. People do halt any plans if it is not secret, a sentiment I among others do not agree with. Planning and coordinating events during a secret round which ends up with some form of antagonist has yielded some amazing moments. Personally, when I'm playing command, I run my own things during a round, extended or not, something others have as well and something I encourage others to try.

 

The reason extended should be removed from secret is that when secret rounds turn out to be extended there are no antags to make the round interesting nor are there people trying to run their little mini event for the rest of the crew. Every time a round that was hectic turns out to be secret extended I am disappointed (and you should be as well) because this means a lot of bad RP took place by people who cannot play believable characters with believable actions.

Unbelievable roleplay is something you should ahelp. No one is under any obligation to sit around and wait for antagonists. Make your own routine, interact with people. I do not believe a single job is reliant on antagonists, not even security while tailored for the job requires antagonists.

 

All extended rounds should be boring as fuck unless there was an accident or a station hazard event happened, and that's when people doing their own events come in.

Matter of opinion.

 

For me it's the opposite of having RP interrupted, it's being stuck on a wild goose chase that doesn't even exist in the first place. Nothing worse for Sec than to go into a round only to find out after 2 hours of patrolling and generally being bored that it was extended and you could have done whatever you wanted. Secret Extended is just robbing of expectations and getting nothing in return.

 

You can do what you want on secret. I don't think anyone obligates security to patrol entire rounds. There are routines and things you can keep yourself busy with while playing security.

 

You voted secret because you want antags. You can play the entire round without metagaming but just wanting antags. Is it completely unfathomable that someone can want antags but also not metagame? No, it isn't.

If I wanted to play a round with no antags I'd just vote extended, not secret.

 

A matter of opinion, not one shared by everyone.

 

@Coalf that "MASSIVE CHANCE YOU'LL GET ANYTHING BUT EXTENDED" is wrong. You didn't take into account that some game modes are prevented by spawning based on the current number of players. So the lower the ready player count, the higher the chance of extended is. If we look at the discord, almost every other round is extended.

Lets take a look at #game_status for March 11 through March 12

 

 

 

Do you notice something?

 

He didn't miss anything, he just posted the logs. Extended has 7% chance to occur without mixed game modes, 5% with. You're also over exaggerating the amount of extended rounds, while I do agree since the start of this month it may have occurred a bit more than usual, that is how chance works. Extended can happen 3 times in a row for the same reason cult, rev, autotraitor, mercenary and other game modes can happen 3 times in a row if the conditions are met, while less likely for the types that require a minimum amount of people readied, it is still very much possible.

So, I do not support the removal of extended from the secret list. Personally, I play secret for the chance that there may or may not be antagonists in the round. I will continue to host my own events and activities during secret, it never mattered to me, my routine is usually the same as well. I encourage people to do this as well, antagonists can and have been a nice twist to my plans during a round.

From an administrative stand point, I've discussed this with the administrative team. Per a discussion, the consensus almost unanimously was to retain extended within the secret rotation.

Voting for dismissal.

[Scheveningen]

I do not support the removal of extended from secret.

If you're voting secret explicitly expecting antagonists, you're doing it wrong.

I don't like malf. I'd ask malf to be removed from secret because I think it's a bad game mode where only three routes are ever done because most "antag mains" are amazingly uncreative and default to peaceantag gimmicks because they A.) think they can't get valided for it and B.) are not mechanically skilled enough to do anything different. But no, this would harm the legitimate malf players who enjoy getting nitty gritty and violent with people.

Just because you don't like extended doesn't mean you should dictate what everyone else should be able to play. It is very infrequent people vote extended on purpose, it is always a tossup between extended and secret, with overwhelming voting for secret. Being able to vote for a random game mode is a concession everyone can make and would rather make over voting a singular game mode in.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Guest

[Eve]

Ah yes, remove antags from extended so that people may start validing from round start.

[Skull132]

Interesting point. We actually have test data to predict what might happen if this goes through.

At the moment, extended is played about 15% of the time. Alongside autotraitor with a similar percentage. These two round types form the majority of any specific round type played, everything else is below 10%. Now, when this percentage started creeping back a bit during our Mixed Secret testing shenanigans, we had a lot of folks complaining. And this complaining lasted for a good long while -- it wasn't just a knee jerk reaction. The main conclusion I can draw from this is, autotraitor and extended form the basis for every other round type. They are essentially the relaxing, "vanilla" experience on our server, and everything else is sprinkled in on top of this.

If we remove extended from secret, it will most likely be played less regularly, thus we start chipping away at the basis of our gameplay experience once more. And it may end in the same vain as our tests with mixed secret.

[Alberyk]

I agree with Abo and Skull points, extended is a valid and essential gamemode in our community. Voting for dismissal.

[Butterrobber202]

can we get a straw poll to see how many people want secret extended.

I made the fucking poll: https://goo.gl/forms/tWUSURB7Q2oKhzGr2

Edited March 13, 2018 by Guest

[Scheveningen]

No, because it is easily brigaded and manipulated by strawpoll bots.

[Skull132]

can we get a straw poll to see how many people want secret extended.

 

Straw poll won't be an acceptable metric.

The only real acceptable metric would be a forum poll with a long ass duration and constant campaigning by admins to notice it. Otherwise you'll only get a tiny fraction of the playerbase covered.

MORE STATS!

Extended was voted for roughly 207 times last year. It was played 491 times. So a good 3/5ths of extended is played via secret extended.

[Scheveningen]

That's a pretty significant margin.

[sdtwbaj]

I completely support this.

I think extended as a gamemode is both divisive and different enough that it should be a conscious decision to have an extended round. I think people can far more tolerate a random action antag than can tolerate a random 2+ hour snoozefest.

[BurgerBB]

I did a quick google poll and it seems the majority of people, for some reason, are opposed to removing extended from secret. (7 to 4).

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfoiyoNNSk-3FEAywmEg-heuq8V3Bf_xcXf_VlyBRJ7Aofd-A/viewanalytics (1 means strongly disagree, 5 means strongly agree.)

But I asked another question that would be a good compromise, and it would be letting players know that extended was rolled during mixed secret. The majority (7 to 4) were fine with this. I posted this poll in the discord, as well as in game when it was voted extended so there's obviously going to be a swing in favor of extended (especially how people strongly agree with the statement "I enjoy playing extended.") as people who likely don't like extended wouldn't be playing. I seriously think there should be a month-long official admin poll for this sort of thing to see what the players actually want.

I think it would be a very fair compromise to try out just letting people know it's extended when it's rolled in secret so that players can adjust their roleplay accordingly. I suggested this before, but people scoffed at this saying that if you do this, you're a bad roleplayer, which is just a huge joke. This sort of attitude just fends off people who aren't quite experienced to roleplay and is very familiar to the attitude I received when joining the server for the first time (see: go back to mrp!!!!).

[Butterrobber202]

What burger said is fair, can we at least know it’s extended at round start?

[Bauser]

The fact that meme mode crossfire will occasionally win a vote on low pop rounds is a really, really shitty defense of the extant voting system, Sharp. In fact, that's better at proving the system is a failure than it is at proving the system is a success.

[Faris]

The fact that meme mode crossfire will occasionally win a vote on low pop rounds is a really, really shitty defense of the extant voting system, Sharp. In fact, that's better at proving the system is a failure than it is at proving the system is a success.

 

Read it again, I specifically grouped crossfire away from low pop. If the conditions are met. The conditions for any mixed game mode to be added to the rotation of a present round type selection is dependent on how many people ready up.

So such round types aren't played on low pop, it can't be played on low pop.

[Scheveningen]

The fact that meme mode crossfire will occasionally win a vote on low pop rounds is a really, really shitty defense of the extant voting system, Sharp. In fact, that's better at proving the system is a failure than it is at proving the system is a success.

 

The only failure I see is a failure in reading comprehension and a failure to understand server voting mechanics. Crossfire will not commence without 25 players. The server will revote.

[TishinaStalker]

I think it would be a very fair compromise to try out just letting people know it's extended when it's rolled in secret so that players can adjust their roleplay accordingly. I suggested this before, but people scoffed at this saying that if you do this, you're a bad roleplayer, which is just a huge joke. This sort of attitude just fends off people who aren't quite experienced to roleplay and is very familiar to the attitude I received when joining the server for the first time (see: go back to mrp!!!!).

 

So get experienced in it by playing Extended and focusing on roleplay instead of how you'll secure valids? It's a heavy RP server, so you should be doing that anyway regardless of round type, but what do I know. If anything, all it does is encourage "Oh, I can't fight antags. ABORT ABORT." In which case, those players need to go back to mrp!!!!

[BurgerBB]

I think it would be a very fair compromise to try out just letting people know it's extended when it's rolled in secret so that players can adjust their roleplay accordingly. I suggested this before, but people scoffed at this saying that if you do this, you're a bad roleplayer, which is just a huge joke. This sort of attitude just fends off people who aren't quite experienced to roleplay and is very familiar to the attitude I received when joining the server for the first time (see: go back to mrp!!!!).

 

So get experienced in it by playing Extended and focusing on roleplay instead of how you'll secure valids? It's a heavy RP server, so you should be doing that anyway regardless of round type, but what do I know. If anything, all it does is encourage "Oh, I can't fight antags. ABORT ABORT." In which case, those players need to go back to mrp!!!!

 

I'm just going to go on a rant because this is starting to get super silly.

Maybe I'm insane. Maybe I'm having a stroke and I just don't know it. Maybe I unknowingly snorted cocaine and the first thing I did was read this post, but gosh darn it this attitude about players needs to stop. I remember vaguely about the time I was pointing out how long the Tajarian lore is. I was like "Holy penis this is long lore, I'm not going to get a whitelist because this is too advanced for me. I'm going to get a dionaea whitelist instead." and I was unironically and genuinely called MRP trash and was told to go back to goon by some player. For the record, I only played goon one because I joined, called a cyborg a nigga, and was promptly banned for racism. BUT I DIGRESS there is a certain attitude that exists within this community that makes me write paragraphs on a internet forum about an 2d atmos sim.

The attitude i'm referring to is this belief that just because people want action, doesn't mean they don't want RP, or just because people don't want this style of RP doesn't mean they only want action. I see this prevalent a lot in OOC and Discord and it gives me depression.

Everyone roleplays differently. When I roleplay, I look for drama and entertainment. Antags provide both of those. Action is near the bottom of my list on what I look for, and that's proven with the fact that I never antag and I fucking main cargo of all things. Sure I buy a bolt action rifle when the station has gone to shit, but to this day I have not fired a single shot of that weapon at someone because I don't validhunt. The worst thing I've ever did in terms of validhunt was accidentally break a ninja's legs with a baseball bat when they dared enter the realm of cargo but stopped mid way while they were down because I felt so bad. Antags provide action and drama. Extended doesn't unless you want to get super unbelievable and listen to someone's backstory belonging to a person that wouldn't exist on a high-security station.

The point is that people roleplay differently. When it is extended, I focus on longer roleplay sessions. When it is secret, I focus on shorter roleplay sessions. It has nothing to do with valids or me wanting to shoot a bitch. If I wanted action, I would be a filthy security main.

Most of your post was probably in joke but other posts are much too real and it hurts.