[2 dismissals: archive 25/09/18] A call for stricter enforcement of code red protocols and self-formed civilian militia.

[Kaed]

I've been seeing an increasing trend of late on the server of people arming up with chainsaws, spears, crossbows, and whatever else they can get their hands on and forming what amounts to crew militia during code red situations, then mobbing antagonists like like a disorganized hoard of savages. Naturally, being 8 on 1 against anyone in this game, even when they are armed with makeshift weapons, means that the antagonist is probably going to lose, regardless of their armaments, unless they are ridiculously good at combat or flee (sometimes, it's impossible for them TO flee due to some mechanic, and they just die)

This is the sort of tactics I used to see on old lowrp servers the moment a wizard or other major antagonist appeared. Why is it starting to happen now? Sometimes people are just walking the halls with their militia gear when they are supposed to be in their department. Usually ahelping this just gets the answer 'they were scared, it was reasonable'.

Was it reasonable for them to all develop weapon skills out of nowhere, and berserker like bloodthirst? Being in danger shouldn't mean people self arm en masse with their mysteriously sudden knowledge of basic weapon use and creation, and utter lack of fear for death. Being cornered is one thing, but these people are never cornered. They proactively attack the antagonist as a mob at the first chance. Should an human female assistant know how to operate a chainsaw without hurting themselves? How did they get their hands on one, and why were they allowed to keep it? Should a cargo technician be going around carrying a pike in a two handed battle stance to deal maximum damage while juking an opponent perfectly?

These are things I have seen. Why even have a security department and ERT if cargo can just manufacture a militia team and mob the bad guys. Possibly while screaming about 'combat lactate', like it makes the situation funnier and therefore okay. We should be enforcing some sort of order or it's just powergame and mob memes.

[sonicgotnuked]

If you are forming a militia when security is dead or ERT is dead/not called, that is fine.

When you are forming a militia when security is alive or ERT is around, you are wrong.

This should be a black and white look onto things. Militias should be formed to DEFEND against antags, not attack or hunt them down.

[Kaed]

If you are forming a militia when security is dead or ERT is dead/not called, that is fine.

When you are forming a militia when security is alive or ERT is around, you are wrong.

This should be a black and white look onto things. Militias should be formed to DEFEND against antags, not attack or hunt them down.

 

I mean, that's reasonable.

But they're being formed the moment people notice danger and being allowed by admins under a vague 'they were scared' blanket. Even when they chase them down for a kill the moment they appear.

[CommanderXor]

If you are forming a militia when security is dead or ERT is dead/not called, that is fine.

When you are forming a militia when security is alive or ERT is around, you are wrong.

This should be a black and white look onto things. Militias should be formed to DEFEND against antags, not attack or hunt them down.

 

I mean, that's reasonable.

But they're being formed the moment people notice danger and being allowed by admins under a vague 'they were scared' blanket. Even when they chase them down for a kill the moment they appear.

 

Was this related to the cult round earlier today by any chance?

[Kaed]

If you are forming a militia when security is dead or ERT is dead/not called, that is fine.

When you are forming a militia when security is alive or ERT is around, you are wrong.

This should be a black and white look onto things. Militias should be formed to DEFEND against antags, not attack or hunt them down.

 

I mean, that's reasonable.

But they're being formed the moment people notice danger and being allowed by admins under a vague 'they were scared' blanket. Even when they chase them down for a kill the moment they appear.

 

Was this related to the cult round earlier today by any chance?

 

And a wizard round I was in a week or so ago.

[Lady Fowl]

If your referencing the cult round earlier, Milita was valid since security were all cult aswell as us being unable to call ERT for a time, The milita stood down once ERT came though

[Kaed]

If your referencing the cult round earlier, Milita was valid since security were all cult aswell as us being unable to call ERT for a time, The milita stood down once ERT came though

 

Really? You put down all your weapons and stopped lunging out at any antagonist who came by because an ERT showed up? Because that was the problem. You killed two cultists who were pursuing the CMO in a chainsaw and pike mob. Your behavior was not one of fending off threats and holding ground, but of pursuing and destroying them once they got in range. You did the same thing with the juggernaut that showed up. There was one person walking around in the halls with a shotgun that had to be told to put it down when they came across the ERT.

None of this speaks of any particular restraint, and is behavior that caused me to make this thread.

[BurgerBB]

When players get bored, people will start to find their own fun.

If the antagonist isn't entertaining, then people make their own fun. Sometimes people just roleplay with others. Sometimes people meme around. Sometimes people do their job. Sometimes people validhunt.

A better way to fix this issue of players valid hunting is to make the game more interesting. People are starting to get tired of the same antagonists doing the same gimmicks on the same map on the same station on the same job.

[Lady Fowl]

If your referencing the cult round earlier, Milita was valid since security were all cult aswell as us being unable to call ERT for a time, The milita stood down once ERT came though

 

Really? You put down all your weapons and stopped lunging out at any antagonist who came by because an ERT showed up? Because that was the problem. You killed two cultists who were pursuing the CMO in a chainsaw and pike mob. Your behavior was not one of fending off threats and holding ground, but of pursuing and destroying them once they got in range. You did the same thing with the juggernaut that showed up. There was one person walking around in the halls with a shotgun that had to be told to put it down when they came across the ERT.

None of this speaks of any particular restraint, and is behavior that caused me to make this thread.

 

Im not really sure exactly what you are refering to as I wasnt involved with the milita itself

[Kaed]

Im not really sure exactly what you are refering to as I wasnt involved with the milita itself

 

Sorry, I assumed you were directly involved because you were attesting to it's validity. If you aren't sure what happened why are you claiming it was valid?

 

When players get bored, people will start to find their own fun.

If the antagonist isn't entertaining, then people make their own fun. Sometimes people just roleplay with others. Sometimes people meme around. Sometimes people do their job. Sometimes people validhunt.

A better way to fix this issue of players valid hunting is to make the game more interesting. People are starting to get tired of the same antagonists doing the same gimmicks on the same map on the same station on the same job.

 

That a goal, and a lofty one, not a solution.

[Garnascus]

If you are forming a militia when security is dead or ERT is dead/not called, that is fine.

 

Literally what happened in the round that prompted kaed to make this thread. Cultists converted some of security and killed the rest and went to cargo. Cultists try to break in and kill the brave cargonians. The cultists got rekt. I do not remember how kaed got hurt but he did a /pray asking for a boon from the geometer. Sometimes i do fun things for people, this time i turned him into a juggernaut. The poor juggy decided to walk down the hallway towards cargo. Unfortunately the militia members where nearby and after just fending off a cult attack you can understand why they where not really in a talking mood. They killed poor kaed.

People might make militias for dumb reasons. this was not one of them. The questions should generally be "did this people have a good reason to form a militia and fight back against the cult? yes? ok great." We shouldnt break out the microscopes and go HOOOOOLD ON ALL SIX OF YOU BETTER HAVE WEAPONS TRAINING IN YOUR RECORDS AND WHY IS THAT AFOIAHSFIHDSJGLH:O"JLHKL.

come on now, theres definitely points this can get stupid. Imagine the militia forming on hearsay and killing sec on it.

[Butterrobber202]

From the antag perspective and definitely the solo antag perspective, I’ve come to the conclusion that militia mobs are mega gay.

[Zundy]

I mean, they really should have some skills in weapons before hulking out into Robust McValidSalid though surely?

[Lady Fowl]

If you are forming a militia when security is dead or ERT is dead/not called, that is fine.

 

Literally what happened in the round that prompted kaed to make this thread. Cultists converted some of security and killed the rest and went to cargo. Cultists try to break in and kill the brave cargonians. The cultists got rekt. I do not remember how kaed got hurt but he did a /pray asking for a boon from the geometer. Sometimes i do fun things for people, this time i turned him into a juggernaut. The poor juggy decided to walk down the hallway towards cargo. Unfortunately the militia members where nearby and after just fending off a cult attack you can understand why they where not really in a talking mood. They killed poor kaed.

People might make militias for dumb reasons. this was not one of them. The questions should generally be "did this people have a good reason to form a militia and fight back against the cult? yes? ok great." We shouldnt break out the microscopes and go HOOOOOLD ON ALL SIX OF YOU BETTER HAVE WEAPONS TRAINING IN YOUR RECORDS AND WHY IS THAT AFOIAHSFIHDSJGLH:O"JLHKL.

come on now, theres definitely points this can get stupid. Imagine the militia forming on hearsay and killing sec on it.

AI blew his hand off

[Conspiir]

There was one person walking around in the halls with a shotgun that had to be told to put it down when they came across the ERT.

 

If I remember right, this was probably the drunk bartender who stole the shotgun that was either emptied or still filled with beanbags, because one of the militia was trying to get it back to fill it with lethals and he wouldn't hand it over and ran off. We assumed he died.

When the militia had a chance, we ran up to hide in the construction level. After the attack by a couple cultists and a juggernaut that we managed to survive, we just bunkered down because ERT then arrived. We would later move out for medicine or other reasons, such as power cells.

After that initial confrontation (which nearly everyone in the fight was armed with makeshift glass-on-a-stick weapons--though I did pick up a scythe I think came from the warehouse? I have no idea where it came from but it was cool--the IPC with a chainsaw didn't even have fuel for it and needed my help to find some), the bulk of the militia (I can't speak for stragglers that left the bunker for any reason, such as the CMO and a Doctor going to get spaceacillin) were not involved in another fight. We waited and talked about getting milkshakes when it was all over.

We knew from the AI that the HoP was incapacitated (and later obviously hostile and popping out bodies that held swords) and all of security was dead or crazy. That meant no one was coming to save us. Militia in that case would be valid, and you can't tell me otherwise. The CMO would arrive later and come join us. If you want to suggest a tighter policy on something, use an example that would actually have benefited from the tighter rules and explain why. You're using an example that would have occurred exactly the same way even if there were tighter rules on self-formed civ militias. What do you want civ to do? Sit there and wait to die without a stick in their hands at least?

[AmoryBlaine]

I was Trooper Bradley, militia was fine that round. Hell, they weren't even a 'militia'. They barricaded their department, fended off an attack, and then went to the construction deck to await my arrival. I arrived, handled the remaining cultist, and shuttle called. Only issue I had was with the bartender roaming around on Code red. Everyone else was hiding, and informed me of whatever weapons they had.

[AmoryBlaine]

What I do this is disgusting is the fact that people aquired shields and pikes and other medieval armaments. This took me out of the round, imersion-wise. I do not even understand why these things were added outside of having more weapon options.

[Scheveningen]

Because pikes are hilarious and one of the many optimal ways to roleplay as a Stronghold Pikeman.

Anyway. I don't see this policy suggestion really bringing anything groundbreaking or interesting to consider, in fact, it seems to only bring up complaints, and zero solutions? Very interesting approach.

-1 on my end, if only now that I'm of the mind that threads that masquerade as policy suggestions but are actually complaint threads absolutely are of the most terrible caliber.

[Kaed]

If I remember right, this was probably the drunk bartender who stole the shotgun that was either emptied or still filled with beanbags, because one of the militia was trying to get it back to fill it with lethals and he wouldn't hand it over and ran off. We assumed he died.

When the militia had a chance, we ran up to hide in the construction level. After the attack by a couple cultists and a juggernaut that we managed to survive, we just bunkered down because ERT then arrived. We would later move out for medicine or other reasons, such as power cells.

After that initial confrontation (which nearly everyone in the fight was armed with makeshift glass-on-a-stick weapons--though I did pick up a scythe I think came from the warehouse? I have no idea where it came from but it was cool--the IPC with a chainsaw didn't even have fuel for it and needed my help to find some), the bulk of the militia (I can't speak for stragglers that left the bunker for any reason, such as the CMO and a Doctor going to get spaceacillin) were not involved in another fight. We waited and talked about getting milkshakes when it was all over.

We knew from the AI that the HoP was incapacitated (and later obviously hostile and popping out bodies that held swords) and all of security was dead or crazy. That meant no one was coming to save us. Militia in that case would be valid, and you can't tell me otherwise. The CMO would arrive later and come join us. If you want to suggest a tighter policy on something, use an example that would actually have benefited from the tighter rules and explain why. You're using an example that would have occurred exactly the same way even if there were tighter rules on self-formed civ militias. What do you want civ to do? Sit there and wait to die without a stick in their hands at least?

 

I don't like militias forming in the first place, because the major reason they happen is because mechanically, anyone can pick up a weapon and use it as well as someone who is actually trained. I'd like it so any non-antag who is not in a combat-oriented role should not even be arming up for basically any reason, because it is impossible to moderate proper roleplay of weapon skill during a fight especially for a mob. But since I doubt anyone is going to do that, I'll try and settle for something less.

What I would really like is a stronger enforcement on people being defensive-only militia groups. I will give you two examples of an antagonist dying to a militia, and why one was reasonable, and the other two were frustrating.

Situation 1 - A bunch of people have barricaded up the cargo department and have a bunch of makeshit weapons. NotLich McNecrofuck walks up with a skeleton after murdering the captain and HoP and telling everyone he's done it. Cargo waves their spears at them and tells him to leave because he's fucking scary and he just starts casting spells at them and advancing with his skeleton entourage. So they mob him and he dies, along with his skeletons, because 9v3 fights suck and he made a bad decision to stick around while so outnumbered.

Situation 2 - Evil wizard has appeared on the station and murdered several people in public, claims he wants to take over the station and is iron-fisting it. The captain called an ERT after fooling the wizard into thinking he had surrendered and the wizard is vocally angry at them and expressing a desire to kill them. So the captain walks over to the holodeck and allows the wizard to corner him and at this point, a mob of people from cargo who have discovered (what they think is) a hulk steroid plant rush up from cargo as a pink haired mob and beat the wizard to death.

In Situation 1, there was a clear home ground the militia had defended, and they attempted to ward away the antagonist by waving their spears at them, so to speak.

In Situation 2, there was a lynch mob for militia.

Lynch mobs are the problem here. People are forming militias for the purpose of killing the antagonists, and while they generally tend to hover in the vicinity of cargo, they're not behaving defensively. They're not behaving like scared and confused civilians. They're rushing out and murdering any antagonists that enter their aggro range. And most of the time, they're going to win, because mechanically, many people attacking you at once is not winnable without serious advantages - you can't even attack more than one person at a time with a weapon, while up to 8 people can attack you at once in this combat system.

So I came up with an idea to make this an IC regulation. Now this is a draft, and if someone has ideas to revise it, feel free, because it's pretty rough. Maybe it's a directive? I don't know.

Emergency Defense Militia Regulation

In the event that the station should be placed under sufficient danger that the lives of the crew at large are threatened, permission may be sought from the Heads of Staff to form an Emergency Militia for defense. A common area with viable and preferably numerous escape points must be designated by agreement or command authority as an Emplacement, and non-combat personnel are to congregate in the Emplacement location, and fortify it for defense by whatever means are most available and efficient. Non-combat personnel are to remain in the Emplacement during the emergency situation unless the emplacement itself must be evacuated due to a present danger to everyone inside.

Heads of Staff should not grant Emergency Militia status except as a last resort, when all other options for station defense have failed. Crew who form an emergency militia without sufficient cause or permission must dissolve the militia, and all weapons in their possession are to be considered contraband as in normal station operations.

So the main points here are that:

-Militias become regulated ICly, rather than just something that happens and is tolerated unofficially

-Militia being regulated means they have standard operations. Because they have a direction and protocols, lynch mobs stop happening except for people who want to go vigilante, and they can be dealt with separately.

-I didn't put in anything about it, because I wasn't sure how to regulate it, but a severe cutback on stack-manufactured weaponry needs to happen. What we should be seeing is people armed with stuff they picked up around like kitchen knives and toolboxes. What we are seeing instead is SHIELDS and PIKES and SPEARS because someone thought it would be fun to include them (it is) but now they are being abused by everyone the moment danger shows up. This should not turn into medieval castle simulator the moment cargo is in danger. In actual medieval times these items were difficult to make and were shite if they weren't done right. A forge and stuff was required. Adding them in as something you can magically fold by hand is the only way to do it mechanically, I'm sure, but it's incredibly immersion breaking and abusable. Ideally, restricting their creation to antagonists only.

[Snakebittenn]

Making a spear or pike really isn't that hard. Using a spear or pike really isn't that hard. Bucklers, sure, they're hard to make, but until you code forging mechanics, or until I'm stupid enough to put the shield fittings in the autolathe, you're folding it by hand. Shields aren't hard to use either. Even medieval peasants could do it.

As someone who is habitually in the interest of forming militias, militias are often formed because Security never does an adequate job of actually protecting departments and the crew in a state of code red. Cargo has to become a safe house for the poor and disenfranchised while Security is off on some asteroid Z level following around mercs. And from an antag perspective, I'd rather fight two cargo techs, four miners, the chef, and Pun Pun than have a third party ERT take me out of the round.

Hell, atleast the cargo techs ask questions first sometimes.

Edit: Also, if these things happen enough, if you knew there was no Security or ERT, why did you go alone as a juggernaut anyway? A juggernaut is useless if not screened. This seems like an 'im ded pls nerf' thread.

[Kaed]

Making a spear or pike really isn't that hard. Using a spear or pike really isn't that hard. Bucklers, sure, they're hard to make, but until you code forging mechanics, or until I'm stupid enough to put the shield fittings in the autolathe, you're folding it by hand. Shields aren't hard to use either. Even medieval peasants could do it.

 

Making a spear or pike is not easy. Can you make a spear or pike right now if someone placed a pile of metal in front of you? Because there aren't reasonably mechanics to make them right now, they need to be restricted. If you want to move them over to being produced by a (hacked) autolathe, that would be moderately acceptable. It takes a lot of time to produce things from that. But being able to make like 4 pikes and shields from a pile of metal sheets in the span of 5 minutes to arm up a militia is retarded.

 

As someone who is habitually in the interest of forming militias, militias are often formed because Security never does an adequate job of actually protecting departments and the crew in a state of code red. Cargo has to become a safe house for the poor and disenfranchised while Security is off on some asteroid Z level following around mercs. And from an antag perspective, I'd rather fight two cargo techs, four miners, the chef, and Pun Pun than have a third party ERT take me out of the round.

Hell, atleast the cargo techs ask questions first sometimes.

Edit: Also, if these things happen enough, if you knew there was no Security or ERT, why did you go alone as a juggernaut anyway? A juggernaut is useless if not screened. This seems like an 'im ded pls nerf' thread.

 

I didn't go in there intending to attack them on sight. I sat in a bathroom in pain crit for 15 minutes before being turned into a juggernaut by admins, left the bathroom, walked about 20 squares, and was immediately mobbed by a frenzied swarm of cargo techs and assistants. I had no grounding in the situation and was effectively ganked, and it was allowed because apparently there had just been an attack on cargo (that I knew nothing about, having been in pain crit). I think I managed to pull of one attack on a person during the melee, but they also basically chased me down with a chainsaw and pike when I was actively withdrawing? My lifespan as a juggernaut was less than 2 minutes, because I walked in the wrong direction. No questions were asked, just a mob attack.

There shouldn't have been a 'wrong direction to go' to this extent. My death should have been a result of my own poor choices to attack a mob, not because I walked down a hallway where there were people. Cargo militias are too aggressive, and that's why I made this thread.

[Snakebittenn]

The people in the hallway were actively retreating, you were the one that entered the lobby and followed them. Regardless, pls address the rest of my points as well.

[Resilynn]

Side note, the engineer made those weapons. You want to tell me the engineer with all her tools can’t make a pointy stick?

[CanadianDollar]

Is this also about that wizard round?

[Mofo1995]

I think there's more merit to this than people seem to give it. If I'm being honest, particularly when I play cargo, I do tend to prepare for trouble when talk of terrorists and monsters starts creeping in on comms. As a botanist I tend to keep a reserve of poppy plants as "herbal medicine" knowing full well it has bicaridine. And when things break loose I tend to hand out the plants or cargo warehouse contents or what have you. I do think we could maybe do better about powergaming on the level of each player ceasing these small and largely imperceptible things like I sometimes catch myself doing. But I think it would be a bit demanding to ask administration to keep track of things that small. How are they supposed to know if I'm stockpiling inconspicuous chekov's guns?