[1 dismissal] Research starts with levels

[GreenBoi]

Research is annoying.

 

It's a tedious, uninteresting process that's more of a chore than anything else. All you're doing is sticking shit inside a machine and clicking a button over a hundred times. RnD should start with levels like this:

Spoiler

 

Material - 7

Engineering - 6

Phoron - 6

Power - 7

Bluespace - 5

Biological - 5

Comabt - 5

EM Spectrum - 6

Data Theory - 5

 

This is ripped straight off the google doc from the Guide to RnD page on the wiki. Some of the levels might have been changed to be more powerful, I have no idea how old that google doc is.

 

Counter-Counter-Arguments

 

"Having to spend time researching at the start of the round is important and prevents powergaming!"

Any good researcher can reach optimal levels within 15 minutes, I can do it in 20 by going off a mental list. This doesn't really do much and by the time a researcher is done, there's little downtime from the first mining shipment, which usually contains a bit of phoron and some gold, even uranium sometimes, that's more than enough for printing anything actually dangerous.

 

"It gives Science something to actually do"
 

Researching the current way is and always will be a chore. It's not fun, and it takes incredibly long if you don't know that super cool meta list everyone uses. Also, Science has other goodies to experiment with, including, but probably not limited to:

KA Testing (They can use their xenoarch access or get the RD to give them the superior telecomms voidsuits)

Prototype Gun Builds Testing (Like KAs but they can use these when traitors and reliably too)

Circuits (you can make a lot of utility and useful stuff with this if you do enough trial and error)

[Pratepresidenten]

Sure you can rush this, but you still gotta wait around for materials from mining to go any further or do fun shit, no?

[GreenBoi]

2 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Sure you can rush this, but you still gotta wait around for materials from mining to go any further or do fun shit, no?

That's the point. You still need to wait for materials, so having access to decent levels doesn't mean anything bad or powergamey. But it DOES mean Robotics can at least make starter mechs if they need to, or have something miscellaneous like a Portable Integrated Circuit Printer made. 

[Carver]

Seems okay. A very non-affective buff to remove tedium, and not inherently gamebreaking unlike the mining buffs.

[DaTimeSmog]

At this point I'd agree with this post completely, considering RnD is the biggest chore in research and like already mentioned not really an effective stop gap to powergaming as it's done in a few minutes. Also this is an indirect buff to robotics which I can only support.

[Bear]

Yep. My clock time is 12-13 minutes. 12 minutes plus im not focusing on rp happening around me. Please.

[Doxxmedearly]

This would help robotics tremendously. This is akin to the engineering updates which removed tedium (shield setup on surface, phoron canisters in hard storage). 

I would suggest a middle ground- Not the level max before you require materials, but starting with something so it only takes maybe 5 minutes. This provides some busywork, sure, but it's also good for early-round teaching new players how to shove things in the science machine, even without miners on shift. However, I do not play RND so take my idea with a grain of salt. Robotics, though... we need SOMETHING. Pleazze, zzir, juzzt a crumb of rezzzearch levelzz... 

[Nantei]

I want this, but staggered out. Don't start with these levels, but have it slowly grow to these levels after say, 20 minutes give or take. This is about when materials come in. That may not be feasible codewise, but overall I am generally fine with doing this regardless because R&D is the worst roundstart chore in the game.

[Arrow768]

Voting for dismissal.

This concept already exists with the items in the cargo warehouse.
Just go to cargo and ask them if they have any items that you can use to increase your research levels.

[Nantei]

1 hour ago, Arrow768 said:

Voting for dismissal.

This concept already exists with the items in the cargo warehouse.
Just go to cargo and ask them if they have any items that you can use to increase your research levels.

Cargo often never sends those, and by the time they do it's often obsolete and faster to do it normally. Sorting the warehouse is incredibly time consuming. 

 

Also this does not address the core problem. R&D is a mandatory chore that many people do not want to do. I have seen a recent rise of scientists who icly do not know how to do R&D. It's very frustrating to play a role like robotics, and have nothing but the bare essentials because nobody wants to do R&D. And the roboticist themselves is not allowed to for skillset reasons.

[GreenBoi]

18 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

Voting for dismissal.

This concept already exists with the items in the cargo warehouse.
Just go to cargo and ask them if they have any items that you can use to increase your research levels.

Most of the time, Cargo sends this about 20-30 minutes into the shift, when researchers are usually DONE with RnD. Also, the warehouse is rng, some shifts you might get nanopaste to spawn in the warehouse, other shifts you get nothing. This doesn't really fix the problems people have with RnD and feels like a strange and underdeveloped excuse.

[Doxxmedearly]

Even as a cargo player who knows what department gets what, sorting and sending the warehouse, even if TRYING to get this stuff to science asap and ignoring everything else, would still take a good ten minutes. A normal sorting would take 20+, longer if people are new or RPing. 

This also does nothing to alleviate the grind, which is the main issue presented in the OP. It just means you're saving a couple clicks printing items and shoving them in the science machine. The only thing the warehouse does is sometimes allow them to get levels beyond the "I need mining's delivery" stopping point, on an unreliable basis, which is not the talking point of this suggestion.

[Snakebittenn]

I agree bigly. Research can take anywhere from 12 minutes to a whole 50 if you're looking for levels commonly deemed acceptable, and getting it done any faster requires
1) An active, fast mining team
2) Robotics that isn't bald
3) Ignoring everyone around you in favor of mindless deconstruction.
Cargo warehouse does not do it. Often one has to delay projects such as circuit construction just because R&D is still grinding. We took out cult research, we can take out this research.

[VTCobaltblood]

On 26/08/2019 at 00:41, Arrow768 said:

Voting for dismissal.

This concept already exists with the items in the cargo warehouse.
Just go to cargo and ask them if they have any items that you can use to increase your research levels.

????
This is not a solution to anything whatsoever mentioned in the post

[Arrow768]

The main difference between the engineering changes (make it easier to setup power/shields) and the proposed research changes (giving research almost complete research levels at the start of the round) is that if engineering does not setup the engine / shields it is quite often a round-ender, where as with research that is not the case.
It is just the unwillingness to invest effort to get higher research levels to do more interesting things.

Sure it´s not the most interesting thing to do, but if you want high level items, then you should have to do something for it and not just be handed it "for free" and without any effort.

Regarding the "cargo takes so long to bring us the items".
As I said: You can become proactive, head there and ask them if you can look through the warehouse for interesting items.

[Doxxmedearly]

Again, cargo having things does nothing to reduce the grind. 

I agree that starting with ALL levels is too much. It totally went over my head that that's what was meant. Even with engineering, the things were streamlined, but still require intervention and setup. But something? Even like, 2, 3 4 in certain things? Anything to help robotics have SOMETHING when there isn't science staff (And you can't use the 'unwillingness' point here, since unless you're making a character able to do both jobs, you really can't do anything about it even if you're willing to put in work). Anything to reduce a bit of the tedium for RnD by a little bit. 

[Nantei]

R&D is a shitty minigame that shouldn't be in the game while it remains shitty. Does anyone here really enjoy doing R&D? I find it's a pretty rare opinion. That should probably make it clear we should streamline it a bit. This is also why I suggested levels coming in gradually instead of instantly. Anything to make R&D not such a pain in the ass. Compulsory activities should be at least somewhat entertaining, or if not they should at least be mercifully short. R&D is the longest round start chore, and still probably one of the worst.

[Dark1Star]

+1 I've seen scientists complete research in 10 minutes. Which is... kind of amazing, I'm slow at it. But honestly, it's just a quick chore so the rest of science can have fun. 

[Bear]

I will literally always be done researching beyond anything cargo sends me before it reaches me every single time. Having been delving into the cargo realm recently theres a lot for the tech to sort thro. Organize and then mail independently

[IAmCrystalClear]

A lack of interest in jumping through hoops in RnD is what sources my dislike for playing the role. What if we changed it for a more optional, expedition-based system?

Give everything a base starting level, more levels can be gained through finding relics/alien tech/materials accessed via the away shuttle and deconstructing those.

[kyres1]

R&D's basic levelling system is highly confusing to new players and serves....

ultimately no purpose.

The R&D list I've made can get R&D done in 11 minutes. A person who takes the most miniscule effort to deconstruct circuits in a proper order can get it done in half that.

Organizing things such as expeditions, shift projects, etc as scientists is extremely difficult when, most of the time, it's on the shoulders of the head powergamer (RD) to actually progress levels. Juggling levels and preparation for more interesting projects than shit you've done quite literally hundreds of times, is not fun, and ends up extending preparation time for many things from "The first 20 minutes of the round" to "The better part of 3 quarters of the entire round."

Changing the R&D order has proven ineffective in the past, as many things seen as "cheating the system," then removed, have simply had alternatives in code that are easy as fuck to find if you just spam decon things or code dive. Even if this entire process was defeated, extending this mind-numbing experience serves to do nothing other than pose an obstacle to people having some fun.  @Alberyk was doing the right thing by removing what could be powergamed from R&D rather than extending the leveling process for these reasons exactly. However, if you really wish to go down the route of removing things that can be powergamed, remove the ability to make anything combat related from anything ever, including robotics' combat mechs, robotics' combat RIGs, R&D's protoguns, and essentially the entire phoron research branch. (dont do that please)

 

Important note : you 100% have to do research period or the entire department ceases to function properly, even Toxins needs upgrades at this point.

Edited September 6, 2019 by kyres1

[IAmCrystalClear]

Perhaps a total rework of machines and science is more in order. If the station can become less reliant on upgrades and similar, perhaps we would be more willing to not feel obligated to fully research the tech tree every round.

I believe that Science should be based on experiments and RNGesus over simply knowing a list off by heart. We have a Research shuttle for away missions, we have the Scouts suggestion, we even have a system for gaining levels, why not combine the three, having Away Missions be the basis of most rounds, and finding relics and gathering data being how research is progressed? Finding an ancient alien gun might give levels in combat, while an advanced medical system could be used to forward medical appliances. The current system makes almost no sense, literally fabricating a low-power laser then deconstructing it somehow makes you understand how it's built? That's like 3D printing something then taking it apart to see how it's made by the 3D printer, somehow now understanding how to make it better.

TLDR: make research levels obtainable via RNG-spawned items on the asteroid/derelict, therefore making RND less mandatory and more rare. Prototypes given to you by RnD are now less normal!

[VVipEdout]

RnD as-is is intensely boring if a scientist is available, and crippling for the rest of the station otherwise. There is no roleplay value, no fun, no benefit to literally anyone to keep it in its current state. Warehouse items solve no issues as no realistic CTs would have the slightest idea of what items would improve research levels, not to mention the time spent in sorting through them, bringing them back to RnD and scanning them takes in fact more than the existent lists. No scientist wants to spend every round doing something mind-numbing before their actual job, no CT wants to suspend their plans to sort through items whose function they have no idea of.

Even further, it would open up more time to use the more fun inter-department features of science, such as advanced circuits or KAs, not to mention helpful tools like the IMS or nanopaste; being literally unable to patch IPCs or synthetic limbs because there is no roboticist and the scientists didn't bother to go through the time barrier for level/are new serves nobody. Tedium is not difficulty, there's no challenge to RnD other than being willing to spend around 10 minutes of one's life clicking the same options over and over again.

[LordPwner]

Also from an IC standpoint why do we even have R&D do the same research every fucking time. I agree with alot in this post, R&D SHOULD be caps there bois, me and the bois be capping our words start with some levels. It is so annoying as a Robotist to sit there and basically beat thou meat and build seventy clean bots while waiting for a server sync. You are quite literally held by the balls by your co-workers and if you piss them off (and no one is there to force their hand) you basically gotta pray that either ISD listens to you and can get proof OR someone links it for you. (I know this isn't common but it CAN happen.) So I agree with the post, let R&D start with some extra levels (NOT ALL) so Robotics can do some dos.  I'd also say we could add in a 'random event' research idea that changes every couple or every round, like a topic of something so R&D isn't so fucking boring because yeah people can do this in 10-20 minutes even if you're IQ is 7 and you're literally a vegetable you can do R&D by forcing items into the thingy and pressing the big red button repeatedly And yeah @Arrow, going to have to have a big disagree on your dismissal. Your point 1.) Doesn't cover the topic at hand, 2.) Only handles the extreme of "give all research" while it seems a majority of us want to just start with some basics so robotics isn't stuck with only the basic shit-bots 3.) From an IC view a robotist/Bio-engineer shouldn't be digging around in a crate to do their job. They didn't go to school for 4-8 years after Secondary education to dig in a crate. The loser from 26B down in District dumbhole, who didn't go to university. Now that guy, he studied to dig in a crate.