On the Subject of Ta (Vaurca Breeder Consulars)

[Snakebittenn]

>Why would a member of the hive important enough to it's survival be sent off to some hellhole?

ok so

historically the job of female breeders (as they are the ones that are unbound) was literally just to lay eggs, be an understudy of a lesser queen incase they kick the liquid storage device, and controlling hive-cells generally female breeders that aren't lesser queens are in charge of hive cells, which are very numerous. each vaurca of a hive is in a hive cell and these numbers can range anywhere from like 12 dudes (sitting 5 feet apart cause they aren't gay) to the thousands (it depends on how in-demand the job is) while they aren't exactly as common as workers or warriors, they are absolutely nonvital to operations
their recent job has been to act as representatives because it would be pretty much a waste of resources if eggs was all they did >'they're more sociable than the other castes' correct, sort of. while there's hardly any antisocial vaurca, breeders possess the most social intelligence and likely have by far the most training in other species' customs, systems, etc. workers/warriors can also be socially inclined, especially if C'thur, but it's not their function or purpose. they don't send them for that in a capacity such as this. (oocly they cannot be guarded because alb doesn't want consular guards)

>And the... important mama bug was fighting?

this was a breach of lore and it's not something they are actually meant to do

they are not meant to put in literally any hard labor or any fighting unless there's deadass no one else to do it

>mechanics
They are not any more durable than a Worker, meaning if you puncture their carapace they will bleed out within probably 2 minutes.

[Bygonehero]

1 hour ago, Naelynn said:

The second time I realized they are just a vaurca consular - and that is cool AF, but it felt a little off too - Why would a member of the hive important enough to it's survival be sent off to some hellhole?
 

------------------------------------------------------------

The Aurora isn't a hellhole, in fact, its one of the most heavily guarded space stations in the system. Furthermore, its also one of the most important. 

1 hour ago, Naelynn said:

. I thought Vaurca are raised in VR for a direct purpose, and while some act stupid, they as a species are not stupid.... So why wouldn't some 'normal' be better at communicating than a important breeder-mom bug?

Breeders are the middle managers of the hive, this requires them to possess a high degree of social intelligence and problem solving skills, whereas the other castes have job-specific duties. 

 

1 hour ago, Naelynn said:

Breeders are
1) Impossible to grab (4x as hard as a human to grab, 3.5x as hard as a skrell to rgab)
2) Can break cuffs
3) Have a massive (larger than human) stamina pool, have low-cost sprinting, and have fast stamina recovery. What?
4) Cannot slip.
5) Have natural weapons

1-They are not impossible to grab, despite it making sense that they should be. Table CQC is just as lethal to a Ta as it is to anything else.

2-Yes, but the effectiveness of cuffs is questionable due to things beyond just the ability to break them. (perhaps they slipped them off, or retracted an appendage)

3-They are very slow. Very very slow. 

4- All Vaurca cannot Slip

5- Claws

Edited September 15, 2019 by Bygonehero

[Mofo1995]

Keep the posts coming guys! So far it seems like the general community opinion tilts slightly towards the positive on their feelings about them. Though, I would still really like for a size adjustment. Would anyone hate me or be averse to that?

[JKJudgeX]

The mechanical advantages just make any xeno a much harder sell for me.  I like the xeno feel and having them around to add more than just lolanotherhuman (even though that's all I want to play)... but I really feel like mechanical advantages are a nono, even if they seem small or you think the disadvantages balance it out, it's still bad, and comparing them to borgs is a bad idea, too, because borgs are definitely overpowered but exceptionally hindered RP-wise and by laws/the AI.  My advice to lore writers and such is that you'd have more ease getting your lore accepted and appreciated by the community if the mechanics were balanced and much more well-considered, and that goes for new races/breeds and old alike. 

The Ta RP I've seen so far was really fun and engaging.  You don't need the mechanics for any of what we did.

[LanceTheInvader]

I personally love them. The people who roleplay them do an excellent job so far. Feel out of place? Perfect... These people knows what "alien" mean now.

[Pratepresidenten]

Havent really interacted with them, but from what Ive heard, they've been a very positive influence.

[geeves]

3 hours ago, Mofo1995 said:

Keep the posts coming guys! So far it seems like the general community opinion tilts slightly towards the positive on their feelings about them. Though, I would still really like for a size adjustment. Would anyone hate me or be averse to that?

I believe their size is fine as-is. For a setting set so far into the future, where we meet all sorts of weird and wonderful creatures, all of them being humanoid and 32x32 is a bit lame. Having a bit of an oddity on-station is.. fun? I suppose. I quite like the Vaurca Consular.

[Scheveningen]

Mostly incorrect in some cases, Nae. While they on paper have combat functionality, one can be deemed worthy of a whitelist strip if someone fights as a non-event/antagonist breeder character. Even as an antagonist, I seriously wouldn't think playing them as a traditional violent antagonist would be particularly healthy for immersion.

[GreenBoi]

6 hours ago, JKJudgeX said:

The mechanical advantages just make any xeno a much harder sell for me.  I like the xeno feel and having them around to add more than just lolanotherhuman (even though that's all I want to play)... but I really feel like mechanical advantages are a nono, even if they seem small or you think the disadvantages balance it out, it's still bad, and comparing them to borgs is a bad idea, too, because borgs are definitely overpowered but exceptionally hindered RP-wise and by laws/the AI.  My advice to lore writers and such is that you'd have more ease getting your lore accepted and appreciated by the community if the mechanics were balanced and much more well-considered, and that goes for new races/breeds and old alike. 

The Ta RP I've seen so far was really fun and engaging.  You don't need the mechanics for any of what we did.

But this is a game, not having any mechanical representation of something makes it down to pure rp, and since we are on a game platform, we have the ability to actually make the rp we imagine in our heads be real and hard to avoid with godmodding and shit like that.

 

Ta are not OP at all, their main 'strength' is their roleplay ability to command vaurcae and that's it.

[VVipEdout]

9 hours ago, Mofo1995 said:

Keep the posts coming guys! So far it seems like the general community opinion tilts slightly towards the positive on their feelings about them. Though, I would still really like for a size adjustment. Would anyone hate me or be averse to that?

It would make the consular less unusual-looking, and thus would be boring. One of the first things people notice even without the slightest idea about Vaurca lore is 'that is a massive bug', which serves as a pretty simple foot in the door to get people involved in some way.

[JKJudgeX]

2 hours ago, GreenBoi said:

But this is a game, not having any mechanical representation of something makes it down to pure rp, and since we are on a game platform, we have the ability to actually make the rp we imagine in our heads be real and hard to avoid with godmodding and shit like that.

 

Ta are not OP at all, their main 'strength' is their roleplay ability to command vaurcae and that's it.

If you need advantageous mechanical representation of a thing, then that thing simply should not be in the game.  No one needs to play Superman, for example, so, if Superman is suddenly included in the lore and is needed to be represented on station, mistakes were made.

"But I'm strong and can break cuffs, or slip out of them with my alien appendages, etc..."  - Why would you be allowed to work on-station before handcuffs were upgraded to accommodate you?  Easiest solution, no playable xenos are more than a standard deviation or so away from human strength.  

How many threads have we seen of "why would you attack my unbeatable giant lizard with your human?" - no one should have so much advantage that beating them one on one is considered unrealistic or foolish to attempt.  The lore should just not have Unathi and Vaurca being that much bigger/stronger than humans, or having a decapitation bite/etc.  You don't need it, and it doesn't enhance RP.

I am only including this because it's the only part of having more Vaurca aboard that I don't like - mechanical advantages, which the Ta retain those of the Vaurca.  It would be easy to just come along and throw a thumbs down and say "nah, don't like em" just to get another advantaged player slot out of the game, but, I really want the RP flavor of xenos without the imbalance, so, consider my opinion on Ta like my opinion on any other xeno:  more RP less OP, please.

[GreenBoi]

7 minutes ago, JKJudgeX said:

If you need advantageous mechanical representation of a thing, then that thing simply should not be in the game.  No one needs to play Superman, for example, so, if Superman is suddenly included in the lore and is needed to be represented on station, mistakes were made.

"But I'm strong and can break cuffs, or slip out of them with my alien appendages, etc..."  - Why would you be allowed to work on-station before handcuffs were upgraded to accommodate you?  Easiest solution, no playable xenos are more than a standard deviation or so away from human strength.  

How many threads have we seen of "why would you attack my unbeatable giant lizard with your human?" - no one should have so much advantage that beating them one on one is considered unrealistic or foolish to attempt.  The lore should just not have Unathi and Vaurca being that much bigger/stronger than humans, or having a decapitation bite/etc.  You don't need it, and it doesn't enhance RP.

I am only including this because it's the only part of having more Vaurca aboard that I don't like - mechanical advantages, which the Ta retain those of the Vaurca.  It would be easy to just come along and throw a thumbs down and say "nah, don't like em" just to get another advantaged player slot out of the game, but, I really want the RP flavor of xenos without the imbalance, so, consider my opinion on Ta like my opinion on any other xeno:  more RP less OP, please.

I don't understand this. You can't have xenos be the same strength as humans, that makes things boring mechanically and flavor-wise. Sometimes I want an unequal fight so I have to actually think more to take the person down, and in a game where we already have to do the same shit over and over again without getting bored and trying to spice things up so we don't all quit, unequal fights are healthy and means multiple strategies, which means getting bored less.

 

Besides that, I'm still going to repeat this: Ta are not OP at all. Vaurcae are not OP, they have a few helpful traits, but that means nothing. You shouldn't expect to easily kill a Ta with a fucking crowbar, and they are easy to land shots on given how big they are in comparison to human sprites. I don't see the point of playing a roleplaying game if the things from the lore or whatever that are big advantages don't have any mechanical representation. Imagine if an IPC could feel pain, or if Aut'akh didn't have integrated tools in their augments, it'd be a massive hole in representation.

[JKJudgeX]

Just now, GreenBoi said:

I don't understand this. You can't have xenos be the same strength as humans, that makes things boring mechanically and flavor-wise. Sometimes I want an unequal fight so I have to actually think more to take the person down, and in a game where we already have to do the same shit over and over again without getting bored and trying to spice things up so we don't all quit, unequal fights are healthy and means multiple strategies, which means getting bored less.

 

Besides that, I'm still going to repeat this: Ta are not OP at all. Vaurcae are not OP, they have a few helpful traits, but that means nothing. You shouldn't expect to easily kill a Ta with a fucking crowbar, and they are easy to land shots on given how big they are in comparison to human sprites. I don't see the point of playing a roleplaying game if the things from the lore or whatever that are big advantages don't have any mechanical representation. Imagine if an IPC could feel pain, or if Aut'akh didn't have integrated tools in their augments, it'd be a massive hole in representation.

You are given many opportunities at "unequal" fights via the equipment available to antagonists, which sometimes far exceed the mechanical advantages of xenos.  Therefore, the xenos mechanical advantages are not necessary for asymmetrical encounters, which I agree are very interesting and fun (until they become too asymmetrical, as there is some over the top imbalance here, too, when people decide to abuse it - thankfully not that often). 

Notice that in most RPGs, the racial bonuses that you can get, let's say, in D&D, are usually around +2 to a stat plus maybe some low-light vision or other tiny perk.  You can't create a character that would be "foolish to fight" based purely on race, unless you start digging into specialty splat books or make a vampire or something - which then would be balanced out by giving something to everyone else.  Yeah yeah, this isn't D&D, but, if we're just throwing balance out the window, then you no longer have an excuse for my character not to spawn with a fully loaded .45, either, since if there are going to be crewmembers aboard who can "bite my head off" in a very literal sense, captains, HoS'es, and security officers would REALISTICALLY come prepared to stop those people should they go rogue, or arrive from off-station to attack...  so... in order to avoid an arms-race, just leave out the mechanical advantages.

I have to just say agree to disagree.  Vaurcae and Unathi are overpowered, with advantages that are not necessary for enjoyable gameplay.  There's more imbalance than this, but these are the ones I see lately.

[Rushodan]

Without giving a turbo long post about ups and downs I will warn you that this comes from someone who isn't super clued up on the Vaurca lore and therefore I might have the wrong idea. Apologies if this is the case.

But I honestly love them.

The first time I ran into them on the station it was a positive experience. The second time I ran into them it was positive. And so on.

They are pretty cool and interesting looking, really add some diversity into the spites we have without looking 'bad' (see what the security discord thinks of the shield resprites if you want an example of bad).

So long as the players know combat is a no-go (as it should be for all consulars). Then I couldn't find a personal reason to remove them. I'd actually push for some more stuff LIKE them with other races. Cool, interesting stuff that might help people take an interest or stick around. 

[Bygonehero]

13 hours ago, Mofo1995 said:

Though, I would still really like for a size adjustment.

What does this mean? Could you be more specific? Like, I made the sprite 32x32 already, it just needs to be spliced and then its overlays set. Is this what you meant, or?

Edited September 15, 2019 by Bygonehero

[Mofo1995]

1 minute ago, Bygonehero said:

What does this mean? Could you be more specific? Like, I made the sprite 32x32 already, it just needs to be spliced and then its overlays set. 

It means that, changing it to the 32x32 sprite that you made. I think given the feedback in this thread so far I'd be happy to keep Ta, but with that size change.

[VUX]

I very much like the Ta consulars, because having a Ta on the station provides something for the vaurca to rally around, even vaurca of a different hive. After all, a Ta is basically someone's mom, and it's wrong to be rude to or hurt someone's mom. A non-Ta consular would basically defang that whole scenario; workers of different hives can be as brutal as they like to each other. It's also not really common enough to constitute a problem.

Additionally, having cool creatures on the station is not a bad thing. Having a ta on board has never to my knowledge made someone shrug upon seeing other monstrous creatures.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I would like them to remain big.

[geeves]

I'd like 'em to stay big as well. It'd be expresso depresso to have a big breeder be stuck in 32x32. What's the point of having it be a breeder, then?

[Alberyk]

30 minutes ago, geeves said:

I'd like 'em to stay big as well. It'd be expresso depresso to have a big breeder be stuck in 32x32. What's the point of having it be a breeder, then?

Large sprites might have some issues, like clipping out of shadows, it is really better to avoid using bigger sprites for everyday stuff. Besides, someone has to change all limbs and clothing sprites to match it.

[LanceTheInvader]

Who said they needed elaborate clothing? Their size is one of the aspect with them I love the most. They are so huge anybody who never one has to react and that creates a nice dynamic.

Keep em large. We got enough species with interchangable clothing already... Even if it can be argued that there shouldnt be a whole lot of people playing those and thus the need for clothing aint, again, extensive.

[Bygonehero]

22 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

Large sprites might have some issues, like clipping out of shadows, it is really better to avoid using bigger sprites for everyday stuff. Besides, someone has to change all limbs and clothing sprites to match it.

As it is at the moment, the sprite itself is 35x35 part of what makes them appear so large is the antennae, which is applied after the fact via code.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Bygonehero

[MoondancerPony]

18 hours ago, Naelynn said:

Right,
I was asked to post my opinion to this threat, and after reading about 2/3rds of it I can sort of see why.

I'd like to highlight two things:
1) I have never read any vaurca lore page. All I know about them is the 'everyman' knowledge.
2) I have encountered vaurca consulars a few times.

Because of this, I would like to ask to not be judged in this post based of how the lore is written and understand that this is merely from a perspective of a crewmember who has very little idea of how Vaurca actually got where they are.
_____________________________________________________________________________

When I first met a breeder, I was like holy shit - because it felt so random for a 'breeder' of the species to be on station, unprotected. As far as I know, they are rare and always kept protected - kind of like how the breeding bee in a bee hive is kept safe, so I was awed that the devs were doing a little event like this, despite there being no guards for the breeder.

The second time I realized they are just a vaurca consular - and that is cool AF, but it felt a little off too - Why would a member of the hive important enough to it's survival be sent off to some hellhole? After reading some of the points in this threat, it seems to be because 'they're more sociable than the other castes' - This makes no sense to me. I thought Vaurca are raised in VR for a direct purpose, and while some act stupid, they as a species are not stupid.... So why wouldn't some 'normal' be better at communicating than a important breeder-mom bug? ... so the only real answer seems to be 'This is an important member of our hive, we trust you with her safety' - And I think that gesture is cool.

Few rounds later, I was on my paramedic and was responding to a bar situation when I come upon a Breeder standing in middle of a combat zone between an angry ipc bartender with a shotgun and a cadet who's absolutely getting rekt and shouting for help [which wasn't coming]. And the... important mama bug was fighting? This annoyed me personally - surely the bug is important to her hive, surely she cannot risk getting destroyed in a fight - that would destroy her value to the hive and it's queen

I always thought that breeders are more of a last-resort fighters that the hive will only ever use if it's in really bad situation.
_______________________________________________________________________________
And this is where I have to talk about not my experience, but their mechanical functions.

Breeders are
1) Impossible to grab (4x as hard as a human to grab, 3.5x as hard as a skrell to rgab)
2) Can break cuffs
3) Have a massive (larger than human) stamina pool, have low-cost sprinting, and have fast stamina recovery. What?
4) Cannot slip.
5) Have natural weapons
_______________________________________________________________________________
Overall: I think they are cool, but me as a 'normal' player - I don't really understand why them specifically. I'd like them to stay, I genuinely do think they are a cool idea, but I need an explanation that Mr. Joe Average the Janitor will be able to make some heads or tails out of.

Furthermore, if they are to stay, they need across the board nerf - they are supposed to be mama bugs, not frontline soldiers, so why do their stats remind me of a hunter-killer?

Note: I wrote this response hours ago and forgot to post it, so most of what I said has already been addressed.

Spoiler

 

First, when they were initially added there were no constraints on how they were expected to behave; that was recently changed and so I'd expect these behavioral concerns to be less of an issue now, or even a non-issue.

Second, lots of your other questions are easily answered by the Vaurca lore pages, and not reading it isn't an excuse. Please read the relevant lore before leaving feedback based on the lore. I read your disclaimer but this is for OOC feedback, not IC feedback, and your qualms amounted to... not understanding what role breeders play in a hive, which would be easy to rectify OOCly by reading the lore, or even ICly by... asking. Just ask someone. It's that easy.

Third, re: mechanics, these are always subject to change. However, lots of these are non-issues: Consular officers shouldn't be getting arrested by officers, and I doubt antagonists intending to capture them would cuff them as opposed to, say, flashing them, which Vaurca are extremely weak to, including causing eye damage. Vaurca (at least warriors and workers) don't have a much higher stamina pool than humans, drain rather quickly, and don't recover that fast. Also, they can only recover hunger from k'ois, which is relatively rare even if you have money (it's being removed from drinks dispensers Soon:tm:). They also need a constant source of phoron to be able to breathe, and will die if their mask is removed, which is pretty much a hard counter: stun and then remove their mask.

Fourth, I find it rather disingenuous to make such a critical complaint despite admitting you don't have any understanding of the lore, especially when you try to use IC reasons as an excuse. This is for OOC feedback, not IC feedback; it's for the existence of breeders as Vaurca consular officers OOCly, not whether or not you like their presence ICly or whether or not Mr. Joe Average the Janitor understands intuitively, without having to ask, what exactly this big bug is doing on the station. It's 2562, not everything should be self-evident.

Also, re: balance, the PRA consular officer is getting a gun, for... some reason. I think them being allowed to have a weapon from the get-go certainly offsets the claims that Ta are unbalanced, especially now that their bite ability was removed (it was silly to begin with, anyway).

 

Personally, I love Ta consulars and am planning to play one myself soon. I think they act as a good liaison between non-Vaurca crew and Vaurca as a whole, especially the Zo'ra, and I think the fact that they are only the Zo'ra works well (though I've seen suggestions of adding K'lax Ta as a variant of a hegemony consular officer and C'thur as a variant of a Jargon consular officer) given their close(r) ties to Biesel and NanoTrasen, especially after recent events such as the TCFL being revamped.

3 hours ago, Mofo1995 said:

It means that, changing it to the 32x32 sprite that you made. I think given the feedback in this thread so far I'd be happy to keep Ta, but with that size change.

The current sprite is 35x35 save for the antennae anyway. The 32x32 sprite just has less detail and is sort of lame. There's not much of an issue with clipping regardless since it's mostly just perspective and an offset, and clothes aren't really an issue. Then again, this is mostly just echoing what others have said, as well as what I myself have said earlier in private conversation.

Edited September 15, 2019 by MoondancerPony
removed long answer to an old post

[LanceTheInvader]

They don't need to be nerfed. What needs to be done is that those roleplaying them MUST understand that these are not expendable being. That they are kill machines isn't an issue on its own. Nature has knack of making the breeder the dominant. Think praying mantis. The thing is, a vaurca breeder should use aggression ONLY in last resort scenarios and when every other option failed. It should try to escape or talk its way out of it and only attack if backed in a corner to protect itself.

The fact that they are mecanically OP can easily be offset and manged if we make sure the people roleplaying them understands that. Breeders are NOT expendables and should be roleplayed as such.

[JamOfBoy]

48 minutes ago, Nikov said:

"Pregnant characters are not allowed to be on station, due to not being believable, when their pregnancy starts affecting them in any way (12 weeks or whatever). So, feel free to time skip or whatever, but no, sorry, you can't be pregnant on station due to it not being believable when you take in consideration all the stuff that exists on space and etc."

Sorry, a Ta's role-play is definitely affected by their reproductive viability. Other vaurca and other species besides will be expected to treat them differently because of their reproductive status. I just don't find a Ta on station believable due to all the stuff that exists in space and etc. If we are to have a universe consistent with the current rules, Ta shouldn't be allowed on station.

 

Being capable of reproduction does not make them pregnant. They’re, reproduction-wise, the equivalent of any other female crew member. I’d also suggest you stop bringing up pregnancy everywhere and just deal with it. If you have nothing to contribute please do not comment.

Edited September 17, 2019 by JamOfBoy
typo