Changing the Station Engineer job to Maintenance Technician

[MattAtlas]

3 hours ago, Cnaym said:

That was not meant to be rude nor degrading. The issue I see is that this change will be discussed for days while creative suggestions will get attention for a day and then be ignored. I'd prefere a focus on valuable additions to the game instead of changing minor details that (in my opinion) do not improve the game overall.

As for the title, both can be chosen right now, both should be able to be picked even if the default one is changed. This brings me to the question on whether or not this discussion is required. I am sorry I worded it in a way that can be interpreted as rude.

So what you're saying is that any small change should be ignored in favour of big projects. Or rather, any change that you dislike "does not add to the game" and is a "minor detail that should be ignored." Not sure I like the implications of this, but, I'm not gonna change your mind with words, so let's leave it at that.

Let me iterate over the purpose of the PR again. Currently the maintenance technician alt title is frequently played as an engineer alt title that has less responsibilities - but it's not true as it has the same age and education requirements as station engineer. In addition I think that station engineer sounds worse than maintenance tech. So the purpose of this PR is the following:

- Station Engineer is now Maintenance Technician or Station Technician or whatever. They're your normal engineers.

- We add a second role that conveys the idea of "This guy ain't as smart" better than Maintenance Technician. This fills in the gap left by MT in a more mechanical fashion.

So how is this not adding to the game again? You can say that Station Engineer sounds better. I can't disprove that. However, saying that this PR "adds nothing" is just a lie.

[Cnaym]

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

Let me iterate over the purpose of the PR again. Currently the maintenance technician alt title is frequently played as an engineer alt title that has less responsibilities - but it's not true as it has the same age and education requirements as station engineer. In addition I think that station engineer sounds worse than maintenance tech. So the purpose of this PR is the following:

Multiple people have tried to explain that while a technician may have the same requirements, those guys are usually specialists for a single area of expertise and do not have the widespread knowledge to design and construct new things. That is what engineering is all about in the end. Finding creative ways to solve issues. Saying that a technician is payed to keep the place running is simplified but true. This should make clear that the choice on what to call themselves should be left to the player. I do not have any issue with changing the default title. I do see an issue with removing the title engineer alltogether as it stands for a lot more than technician.

Apart from that a similar education does often lead to different jobs. The usual difference being ability and responsibility. This has been RPed by people in so far, that they know a lot about engineering, but not yet all of it, or lack the creativity to solve some of the more interesting issues that arise -> Balancing a power grid when the engine and a solar field have gone missing for example.

I'd expect the technician to keep the station running under normal circumstances, the engineer keeps it running while it's on fire, exploding and being hit by meteors at the same time without any engine running.

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

So what you're saying is that any small change should be ignored in favour of big projects. Or rather, any change that you dislike "does not add to the game" and is a "minor detail that should be ignored." Not sure I like the implications of this, but, I'm not gonna change your mind with words, so let's leave it at that.

Bear with me here as I once more try to find the right words:

The alt title exists and can be played.

I do not want to see the engineer title removed.

I do not much care for which is the default job title.

After multiple people trying to explain the difference between the titles it boils down to:

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

In addition I think that station engineer sounds worse than maintenance tech.

This is not a good reason to remove something. I don't think anyone is having an issue with change. It's the part where things that people enjoy get removed that cause these discussions. I don't think we should remove things that people enjoy (and that cause no obvious harm).

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

So how is this not adding to the game again? You can say that Station Engineer sounds better. I can't disprove that. However, saying that this PR "adds nothing" is just a lie.

The goal of this PR is to make the alt title of technician the main title. Remove the engineer title altogether. Even if you now add the new "This guy ain't as smart" title it still has not added anything of value in my eyes. (I want to specify that this is my opinion. Maybe this is a great addition for others. I am just trying to understand what exactly this would add for the player and why the removal of something is required for that.)

Suggestion and possible solution was already given by Brayce. Make the alt title more in depth instead of just names. The maintenance technician is not the dumb guy. It's the guy specificly trained for a task, just like the engine technician for example. Responsibility does not stand for overall ability or know how. It has been used as bridge between the apprentice and the engineer in the past. Pretty much the resident of engineering.

[Leudoberct]

Big -1 from me.

[Azande]

2 minutes ago, Leudoberct said:

Big -1 from me.

-1 with no feedback = bad post.

[Faris]

1 minute ago, Leudoberct said:

Big -1 from me.

You need to include a reasoning. Even if you're reiterating other peoples opinion as your own.

[Lualyrr]

Now I dont work on a Spacestation IRL but I work at a very large Shipyard. (3700 Employees in the main company, ATleast the same amount of subsidiaries, contractors etc) We do have dedicated employees for maintenance, that are officially named "Maintenance Technician". I dont know if this differs greatly from the rest of the world but her that means smallscale repairs such as replacing windows, checking and repairing doors. Fixing the plumbing, the lighting system, etc. This does not include Structural repairs (SS13: Hull breaches, remodeling of rooms) or handling Supermatter Crystals or Tesla generators. Or Laseremitters.

 

Maybe its just my perception but I feel like switching all "Station Engineers" to "Maintenance Technician" greatly devalues the job.

 

Like someone mentioned, in this case we could rename the Chief Engineer to just Engineer. And at this point why not take them out of Command too? Its just an 'Engineer' as some people here define it.

 

To sum it up: -1.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Lualyrr
To sum it up.

[Leudoberct]

Guess I'll repost the same thing I've been saying in the Engineering discord, then.

It feels like it takes away the value of the standard engineering personnel. There was also talk in the engineering discord of renaming "Chief Engineer" to just "Engineer". I get that an engineer in real life is a different thing, but this isn't real life. This is SS13, where engineers repair breaches on a space station, fire giant lasers at chunks of yellow crystal that can detonate like a miniature nuke, and generate huge balls of electric death just to turn the lights on. I like that the have alt titles such as Engine Technician to let people specialise themselves a bit more, but forcing people who want to have the broader title of Station Engineer to encompass the various Engineering duties that goes on, to have a role that makes them seem a lot less versatile, is a bad thing, if you ask me.

[Juani2400]

45 minutes ago, Lualyrr said:

Now I dont work on a Spacestation IRL but I work at a very large Shipyard. (3700 Employees in the main company, ATleast the same amount of subsidiaries, contractors etc) We do have dedicated employees for maintenance, that are officially named "Maintenance Technician". I dont know if this differs greatly from the rest of the world but her that means smallscale repairs such as replacing windows, checking and repairing doors. Fixing the plumbing, the lighting system, etc. This does not include Structural repairs (SS13: Hull breaches, remodeling of rooms) or handling Supermatter Crystals or Tesla generators. Or Laseremitters.

 

Maybe its just my perception but I feel like switching all "Station Engineers" to "Maintenance Technician" greatly devalues the job.

 

Like someone mentioned, in this case we could rename the Chief Engineer to just Engineer. And at this point why not take them out of Command too? Its just an 'Engineer' as some people here define it.

 

To sum it up: -1.

I studied Marine Engineer for several years, and I'm now studying Business. Thanks to my years as a student of Marine Engineering, I got myself a place in a program where I work for a few months per year in a shipyard, within the management teams of the company. The shipyard doesn't hire the bulk of the employees directly, but instead they use contractors.

To the point, they /do/ have as their employees, though, the engineers who supervise the construction and repairs, and that are responsible for any mishap that happens in the ships. They are the ones who issue the orders, and make the design of the construction and repairs, and the ones who stay in contact with the customer's representative on the technical side of it. The others are just technicians, and mind you, where I live, technician is a title given to everyone who completes an specific level of education which is for practical proffessional purposes (e.g. Electricians, Mechanics, Administrative staff, all kinds of stuff), and it's common to refer to them as what they are, technicians. I know it's a fault of the English language to have people who isn't an engineer commonly referred as engineers (train operators, even ship staff), but they aren't people who studied engineering and as such is incorrect to call them as such.

Maintenance technician, station technician, or just remove the technician title and think of something else that may fit, but engineer is a term that is not correct and it's not what they should be referred as because that's not what the are, in my opinion.

+1 to the suggestion.

[Kaed]

Station engineer sounds fine to me. I don't think this needs to be changed. I tend to agree with people here who say this is a pointless change that accomplishes nothing valuable and takes away options that are fine existing.  This reminds me of the old arguments of people having hernias over HoS being alt titled as a Security Commander because 'it's not military'.

6 hours ago, geeves said:

Do not post if you have no constructive feedback.

"disagreeing with someone" is not mutually exclusive with feedback being constructive.  Sometimes, an idea just isn't good and people need to inform you that they do not think it is good, and therefore, it should not be done.  You cannot hide in a box, accepting only positive responses to your ideas, claiming anything else isn't 'constructive'.  Sometimes there isn't a 'better' way that anyone can suggest than 'just don't do it'

Sometimes people have important things to say about how your ideas are bad, and you cannot simply dismiss what they are saying because they said it in a mean or aggressive way or somehow hurt your feelings.  Look at the content behind the words instead of focusing on the feelings that their choices of language caused in you.

Of course, you can also say 'I don't care, doing it anyway', but that doesn't somehow make your standpoint right, it just means you have decided not to listen to dissent.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Kaed

[Rosetango]

-1 because I disagree with this idea. I agree with just about everything Cnaym has said. And I hope this gets taken to heart, and not tried again later, only to be swept into a PR under the rug and snuck in. I'm fairly sick of developers making a thing and being like "this will go in now." But beyond that, I'll say my two cents.

Station Engineer is someone who has not specialized into any specific field in the context of the game. If anything, Station Technician is a better implementation than removal of Station Engineer outright. This removal adds nothing to roleplay, mechanics, or anything else other than a nitpicking of what an Engineer actually is, and frankly, I agree with Cnaym. That the time being spent on the removal of a job title could be better spent on other things like the massive bug fixing and improvements that Wildkins has done in his short time here, or thoroughly testing a PR before it goes in to prevent massive proliferation of bugs.

But this is just my hot take.

[Seeli]

Uhhhh, how about instead of removing Station Engineer, you add another title? Station mechanic, as Prate suggested, maybe? Or as you initially planned, make Maintenance Technician the standard.
Whatever the case, change the default because new players might just default to it anyway, and let the engineering department keep station engineers as an alt title? Then it's chief engineer, their engineers, [insert new standard here], and technicians (the specialized titles).

I get that IRL it does not quite line up. But "engineers" in games, in sci-fi settings are a quick and easy title for "THEY BUILD/FIX/DESIGN/MAINTAIN". I mean, the definition of engineer (noun) is: 1) a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures. 2) a person who controls an engine, especially on an aircraft or ship. & 3) a skilful contriver or originator of something.

Think about Engineers in Star Trek "And they probably redesigned the whole sickbay too! I know engineers. They love to change things." (Bones, Star Trek). As the Trek wiki explains it: engineers were responsible for maintaining and repairing all the systems on starships, space station(s), and other related equipment.

Or, another sci-fi setting: Star Wars Engineers: "An engineer was a person involved in construction, design, or the use of engines or machines... Starship engineers were members of a starship's crew who maintained the ship's systems... In combat, the engineer could reroute power to increase speed or shielding, and repair or jury-rig battle-damaged systems." In other words, when the junk hits the hyperdrive, engineers repair, maintain and keep it going.

Or how about Space Engineers, from the game SPACE ENGINEERS: where it's all about engineering, construction, exploration and survival in space and on planets.

Or heck, what about a non-sci-fi example: the Engineer from Team Fortress 2. He designs, builds, fights, deconstructs, loves his turret baby.

Point is, language evolves and generally, when talking about Engineers in games and sci-fi, Engineer is an easy and reliable way to say "the person who designs, builds, maintains, repairs and deconstructs the STATION/SHIP". Please leave the Engies in Engineering.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Seeli
removed dr from Bones. Dammit Jim.

[Brayce]

6 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

Currently the maintenance technician alt title is frequently played as an engineer alt title that has less responsibilities - but it's not true as it has the same age and education requirements as station engineer

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. The alternative titles have absolutely no definition what so ever. Station Engineer, Engine Technician, Electrician, and Maintenance Technician have the exact same requirements across the board. Even the ones one  would think should have a clear cut specialization could get away with not having it the 'education' is the same the mechanics of each role are exactly the same. It falls to the individual player to determine what the title means in absence of any other definition. In this thread I've seen at least four different interpretations of the Maintenance Technician. 

• It's the same as any other engineer
• It's a Engineering equivalent of a medical resident
• It's means they're specialized in the maintaining of the station
• It's a less reliable Station Engineer.

If it's frequently played in a certain way that's what it means to those people, and they most likely picked it deliberately. It's not a meme it's reinforcing a character concept focusing on less responsibility because maybe they couldn't get that education, maybe they aren't as trusted because of background, maybe they aren't the smartest bulb in the closet, but they sure can repair some shit. Yet others are looking for the themes as Seeli pointed out can be invoked with the title of Engineer To build, repair, come up with solutions to unexpected problems. In my opinion it's a title worth preserving it's a recognized trope in Sci-fi settings I see no reason to part with it. Made an alt-title itself perhaps. Outright removal. No.

As for looking for a job that means less responsible engineer some have already found it in the title of Maintenance Technician you may disagree, but there's a lot of that going in this thread.

I'd like to say this is a bad PR not simply because I disagree with it, but because the problem it's attempting to solve I don't believe can be solved with a name replacement. The Alt-titles need to be defined clearly instead of everyone having a different interpretation. In addition removing an existing option in favor of promoting a specific one that is only subjectively better to some is to put it bluntly.. uncool.

[Xelnagahunter]

I agree with the point Brayce is trying to run home here and I actually think it's a better solution to the issue than making any changes for now. That would simply be having the lore team talk to the department and figure our how to separate the titles. Give the engine tech and electrician and engineer different requirements or explain their jobs separately, perhaps explaining that they can still help others if they need to. Give Maint Tech or "insert name here" a page saying that is it a lesser role and enforce that policy. Perhaps there is a stopgap between apprentices who are just starting their degrees and someone who has completed one of the degree milestones.

[Rosetango]

10 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

So how is this not adding to the game again? You can say that Station Engineer sounds better. I can't disprove that. However, saying that this PR "adds nothing" is just a lie.

I think everybody above has already explained how this is not adding to the game. I'd like to ask a question to you, though. How is this adding to the game, in your opinion?

[wowzewow]

Hot take, any changes will always sound weird, because mechanically most engineering dept. jobs are the same

And then we end up having to leave it to what "sounds" or "feels right" 

Compare to Medical, where alt titles have a genuine difference

Like surgeon does surgery, medical intern runs around with a thumb up their ass, and medical doctor watches sensor with a thumb up their ass.

 

[MattAtlas]

I think that it's going to be useless for me to repeat that I'm adding a second alt title w/ defined responsibilities and less education for the 10th time so I'll just close the PR. I dont think people like this enough for it to pass anyways.

[Azande]

@Arrow768 this must be moved to binned projects.

[BoryaTheSlayer]

Now, before y'all forget about this thread forever like a nightmare, how about we actually add AT LEAST small blurbs about the alt-titles on the wiki page for Station Engineer, specifying required qualifications and education? I think that'd be a far better implementation than adding an outright new title and also removing something already existing.