Take away flashes disabling borgs

[Randy]

All t takes to disable an antag borg is one flash then they get destroyed, this clearly doesnt build rp nor make it interesting for anyone and there's no real protection against it, its just really bad all round. This is made even worse by the fact that borgs are validhunted quite a lot.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Randy

[AmoryBlaine]

This is literally the only function of the flash. I have a better idea, remove the flash.

[canon35]

Cyborgs can already get protection against this if they're malf, traitor, or even just a upgrade from robotics in the form of the surge protection module. No need to remove it. 

[Pratepresidenten]

I remember there being a lot of support AND pushback against removing flashstuns for people too. "Just steal sunglasses"

I think you should consider both sides of the borg, not just the antag side.

But the more important question to ask before wanting this change for stationbounds would be: Has the removal of flash2win been an overall better change for the server?

[Aphelion]

The main issue with getting rid of the effectiveness of flashes, is that borgs are already very tanky. There is some ballance in the flash because it relies on getting in melee range (something that prevents an average stationbound from waltzing up to a defenseless security team and wrenching them to death cuz machine can't feel pain .exe) However, as a rule I think most instant win moves are a little unfair.

I think if we were to remove the flash or the effect it has on borgs, some alternative should exist. One that isn't an instant win but still gives people some kind of basic defense/offense/means of being a threat at all to the borgs.

+0.5

Remove flash, make Ion weapons more commonplace, or something.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Aphelion

[AmoryBlaine]

Just beat the shit out of them T B H. Most don't know how to fight, and if they are using acid to fuck your day up, it's time to use a bigger weapon. I think they deserve a bit more tanky-ness anyways. Let people rely on ions, EMPs or clubbing to deal with borgs.

[geeves]

You can't punch a borg, you can't grab a borg, you can't table a borg. If you could fight a borg like you'd fight a human, the flash would get yeeted. Problem is, the only real way to fuck a borg is to have: 1) A heavy weapon like a fire-axe or 2) A flash

[Arrow768]

Well, imho it would be sufficient to prevent flashes from disabling borgs, so they are just blinded. (And that would also be in line with the other insta-stun removals and remove the inconsistency with ipcs) 

[Meep]

While it may be needed for balance getting flashed as or flashing a borg is just completely lame and boring. I'd be very supportive of some alternative option although nothing springs to mind personally.

[Carver]

I really don't want borgs to end up as overpowered as IPCs to where it's 'ion rifle, EMP, antag-tier ballistics or you just can't do anything against them'.

Without any of the above extremely limited items, there would be absolutely nothing you could do to a borg. They'd become more horrifying to fight than Secborgs ever were, and it'd be an absolutely insane buff to malf. For the sake of borgs not becoming a powergamer go-to like IPCs have, please, do not render the flash entirely fucking worthless as an item.

[Pratepresidenten]

8 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

Well, imho it would be sufficient to prevent flashes from disabling borgs, so they are just blinded. (And that would also be in line with the other insta-stun removals and remove the inconsistency with ipcs) 

Dis yes.

Blind is really strong, dunno why people are so concerned? You cant do shit when you're blind, borgs are slower than humans, so you can still flashbash until your shit burns out, and that should be plenty to knock out its optics or cell permanently if you only have access to basic weapons, like a bat, or a wrench.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

It doesnt even last that long. If i cant blind a borg for a few seconds then ill have to just buy a gun and shoot it.

[sonicgotnuked]

I think blinding them would be a lot better. Of you've played Borg, you'd understand how lame flash cheese is. It doesn't take much to flash and beat and it's pretty lame. Especially when you can haul it into a disposal outlet.

 

While my interductions in traitor borg I feel helped a lot, borgs don't really have much in regards to combat ranged attacks and once they're damaged, their armor is most likely destroyed and you'll be whacking out something critical. Plus acid has a normal spray bottle limit of 3 tiles or so and you can easily dodge a spirtz. Range is clearly superior.

[Carver]

14 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Blind is really strong, dunno why people are so concerned? You cant do shit when you're blind, borgs are slower than humans, so you can still flashbash until your shit burns out, and that should be plenty to knock out its optics or cell permanently if you only have access to basic weapons, like a bat, or a wrench.

I've won plenty of fights whilst blinded. Being unable to see affects the combat in nearly no fashion so long as you're remotely competent and don't panic, especially if you're completely immune to being knocked over or stunned in any other fashion short of the single rifle in a corner of the armoury or the RD locking you down.

Being unable to stun 'borgs also removes any ability for roboticists to fight against malf/subverted stationbounds without destroying them beforehand. Presently you have to genuinely fear roboticists, as you should as a stationbound.

[Pratepresidenten]

6 hours ago, Carver said:

I've won plenty of fights whilst blinded. Being unable to see affects the combat in nearly no fashion so long as you're remotely competent and don't panic,

Im assuming you're talking as a human here, but for a further change, if there are still balance concerns, you could just make it when you blind a borg, they drop their inventory for a brief duration, making them literally incapable of fighting.

 

[Carver]

17 hours ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Im assuming you're talking as a human here, but for a further change, if there are still balance concerns, you could just make it when you blind a borg, they drop their inventory for a brief duration, making them literally incapable of fighting.

 

I'm curious though, how would that be much different from stunning? That sounds like a viable disable, to which I wouldn't mind a nerf on that level, but is the only difference retaining the ability to move/interact with nearby equipment?

[Pratepresidenten]

Because, when blind, you can move, you can talk, you actually have a marginal chance of survival be it through the power of bumping into someone that feels like making a breather for you, or if you can mouth your way out of trouble, if at all possible.

Even pre-nerf of flash vs humanoids, it was better than its current state against borgs.

As a side-note, Im going to attempt to do up a PR for this.

[Carver]

I wouldn't mind seeing a blind buff of that sort apply to organics as well. Flashes have been notably useless aside from borgs for quite a while.

[Cnaym]

On 01/02/2020 at 05:35, Pratepresidenten said:

Because, when blind, you can move, you can talk, you actually have a marginal chance of survival be it through the power of bumping into someone that feels like making a breather for you, or if you can mouth your way out of trouble, if at all possible.

There is the issue that antag borgs get that. The robots also cannot push anyone, or even resist getting buckled into a chair. The flasher is often the only thing protecting a bad borg player from getting ioned out of the round.

A malf gives it to the borgs, robotics can give this to the borgs, anatag borgs can enable the flash protection whenever they want.

You want to know who the flasher is for? The cadet and the roboticist. They have to deal with Ion lawed borgs, so I always saw the flasher as the one backup implemented, in case anything ever goes wrong with a stationbound. Ion laws are common, so it makes a shit ton of sense to have a none lethal way to bring the robot in and repair it.

This is another thread that is missing the point of RP. The flasher may suck because it disables you (as a none antag only, honestly why would we want none antag borgs more efficent in combat?), the fireaxe to the face might be a worse alternative because it takes you out for good.

It is also the only way for antags to capture a borg and emag it. This would get removed with that change.

Giant NO from my side. None antags do not need it, antags already have it. It is frequently the only thing protecting the crew from an Ion law or a hacked AI, while also the one thing saving the borgs from getting shot on sight.

[Pratepresidenten]

@Cnaym Im a little confused as to what your post is trying to address.

Antag borgs are flash-proof, they're irrelvant here.

5 hours ago, Cnaym said:

The flasher may suck because it disables you (as a none antag only, honestly why would we want none antag borgs more efficent in combat?

There is 0% efficiency or benefit to being blind in combat.

5 hours ago, Cnaym said:

It is also the only way for antags to capture a borg and emag it. This would get removed with that change.

This is a fair point.

5 hours ago, Cnaym said:

It is frequently the only thing protecting the crew from an Ion law or a hacked AI, while also the one thing saving the borgs from getting shot on sight.

I would like some clarification on how this is supposed to work. They get flashed, and then what? Lets say the borg is at the bridge or mining. There is no way you will be able to retain your flash without it burning out while you haul it to robotics.

The simpler way would be to just lock it down, and should you run into the abysmal-chanced issue that the mis-lawed borgs have managed to dismantle all the robotics consoles before anyone caught on, you put a few ions in it to kill its cell without too much damage.

[Cnaym]

55 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

I would like some clarification on how this is supposed to work. They get flashed, and then what? Lets say the borg is at the bridge or mining. There is no way you will be able to retain your flash without it burning out while you haul it to robotics.

The incentive to bring and use flashes is there. Security has a big pool of them, it enables crew to run away instead of getting chopped to pieces and allows you to safely pull it somewhere.

Yes it may burn out, but the stun is long enough that  you can conserve it and call for help. Optimale way is a roboticist helping ISD to get it flashed then removing the power cell, draging it to robotics for repairs. It is also currently the only way of one borg disabling another one. Either antag or not. Heck, some borgs fake getting flash stunned to get repairs or show that they are not malfunctioning. It is overall a tool that has promoted RP, instead of ranged combat with the Ion. Would be a shame to see that lost.

About the efficency of being blinded instead of stunned. You can still run, the AI can still bolt you a into another room safely for example.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Cnaym

[Randy]

18 hours ago, Cnaym said:

There is the issue that antag borgs get that. The robots also cannot push anyone, or even resist getting buckled into a chair. The flasher is often the only thing protecting a bad borg player from getting ioned out of the round.

A malf gives it to the borgs, robotics can give this to the borgs, anatag borgs can enable the flash protection whenever they want.

You want to know who the flasher is for? The cadet and the roboticist. They have to deal with Ion lawed borgs, so I always saw the flasher as the one backup implemented, in case anything ever goes wrong with a stationbound. Ion laws are common, so it makes a shit ton of sense to have a none lethal way to bring the robot in and repair it.

This is another thread that is missing the point of RP. The flasher may suck because it disables you (as a none antag only, honestly why would we want none antag borgs more efficent in combat?), the fireaxe to the face might be a worse alternative because it takes you out for good.

It is also the only way for antags to capture a borg and emag it. This would get removed with that change.

Giant NO from my side. None antags do not need it, antags already have it. It is frequently the only thing protecting the crew from an Ion law or a hacked AI, while also the one thing saving the borgs from getting shot on sight.

I mean.. a lot of times when borg players try to rp a situation where  gimmick thery might be doing (many times being non-lethal since murderboning is not allowed) players just run up and flash cheese them instead of actually having an interaction, plus for you to be flash resistant as an antag borg you need to enable overclock which cuts battery life in half, not the best thing if your evading crew.

Crew refuse to rp with borgs who are even the slightest bit iffy when they can just flash cheese them and drag them to robotics this is obviously terrible for any number of situations that could arise and limits strength to hard antag borgs only so no I dont think i am missing the point since a lot of the time its just flash, remove powercell, rebuild the borg over and over and over instead of an actually interesting situation playing out because thats usually what happens.

Its not like borgs are some unkillable beast either they usually just get ganged up upon and killed if combat ever does happen anyway flash or no flash.

 

I rather then would suggest a tool, much like a flash but for the purpose of disabling borgs like the flash is doing now, with a cooldown of say 5-7 seconds restricted to the robotocist and maybe command instead of having every garden variety flash summerly disable a borg.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Randy

[Cnaym]

3 hours ago, Randy said:

not the best thing if your evading crew.

As an antag you should engage crew through RP and after escalation combat. Even a chase without any use of force can be fun and involve more than the officers. The number of rechargers around the station is really high and you can easily lock yourself in or even hide inside a charger. I have seen borgs change their name to that of an IPC and talking to security out of a charger which was hilarious robust through an RP method.

 

Cyborg. Antag or none. Requires a ton of game knowledge. You should be able to fill any missing slot on the manifest and if you antag be familiar enough with whatever you have right now to join combat.

To the robustness of the modules itself:

Engineering and Construction have the strongest stun weapon and can wall of areas completly, on top of being able to bolt doors and such. Construction is also able to vent any area they are in within seconds which makes them one of the most lethal modules.

Mining module is currently the strongest range and EVA module. You have pretty much freedom of movement and are able to breach any wall quickly with your drill, giving your KA a massive damage buff and easily letting you take out all of security before they even get their internals on. Even if you only use it to escape or bolt someone into a breached room, this is again much stronger than any normal crewmember.

Science module: You get the ability to teleport yourself and crew to predesigned areas, randomly into the vault, or use the teleporter to completly disable ranged weapons. Ion and bullets will simply teleport into nearby walls or space. You also get a strong self repair and the ability to upgrade yourself which makes it imho the most dangerous solo antag on station next to ninjas. Heck you can even disable your own explosive device and take the AI core onto the expedition site as a hostage for shit and giggles.

Janitorial: Lube. Lube. Lube. You can slip people out of airlock, nobody will be able to follow you at sprint speed. This one combined with a VTec is complete aids to fight against. 

Service: Strong melee, poison and chemistry. It can enter any place without even raising an eyebrow by offering coffee. Robustness through RP is where it's at.

Medical modules: Polyacid spray. Outright the strongest weapon against everything except a RIG. It can one shot EVA Helmets, again making it almost impossible to beat as unprepared crewmember.

Clerical: Fake IDs. No honestly, help out others asking for access. Let security know that someone stole the spare and giggle as they follow the HuD to the poor botanist with a captain level ID.

The general ability of all modules to become almost 100% Ion protected, flash protected, hide all tools and maybe some external items inside of them, all access at roundstart and the ability to control airlocks, air alarms, fire alarms and such remotely makes it outright one of the strongest antag classes in the right hands.

If you ever went up against Pennant, Kaiser or Omega you will know exactly what I mean. The level of bullshit a good borg pulls of is almost impossible for the crew to deal with.

Funny enough the removal or change of flashers would change none of that. It would only give security an excuse to destroy none antag borgs or those new to antaging as them.

[BurgerBB]

I've witnessed plenty of round as AI where my malfunctioning borgs were valided the fuck out of using flashes. I wasn't traitor or MALF, but I noticed that when tracking them, you'd have people DESPERATELY try to secure valids via flash despite the robot in question not doing anything lethal or bad.

 

Here is what I propose.

 

Flashes do not stun borgs, but just blinds them.

Add an extra ion rifle to the armory.

 

If you don't need to shoot a borg with an Ion rifle, then you don't need to flash it;. If it's not a threat to shoot it with an ion rifle, then it's not a threat to flash it and unlock it. There should also be some lore guidelines for what you should do in case of a malfunctioning borg as well that are recommended, but not forced, to follow.

 

 

 

[Naelynn]

5 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Add an extra ion rifle to the armory.

Absolutely no.

This would be a ridiculous nerf to IPC's/Prosthethic characters everywhere. 

You cannot 'just change this' and expect it to have no effects.

@Cnaym is making very valid points that people seem to dismiss out of hand.

I'm going to point out the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF REMOVING FLASHES:

1) Wizard/Cult/Vampire/Renegade/Panicking Non-Antag crewmembers all have to now be dealt with using weaponry exclusively.
2) Command staff loses a valuable defensive tool and is left only with the most boring option: Just give 'em a gun. A.k.a: YOU RUIN CHARACTERS LIKE THEA MARIETTI WHO DO NOT LIKE TO USE GUNS - Because now they no longer have ANY means of self defense despite being VIP [Command]
3) Vaurca no longer have an obvious non-lethal means of taking them down, meaning: Prepare for Vaurca-sec-army
4) Synthetic flashes [Devices used to construct borgs] no longer make sense - why are they synthetic when there are no 'normal' flashes?
5) Overall massive increase in pain on station as the primary non-lethal non-pain tool of security gets removed for handling minor infractions. Say hello to more heart attacks for medical due to random pain procs

And there probably is more that I'm not even able to think of.

Random balance changes have to be thought through, not just thrown out.