Regarding the Departmental Security Test Merge

[Skull132]

Okay. First. Leave all of the pitchforks at the door stop, please and thank you.

We have now embarked upon a long test merge of departmental security. The aim of this test merge is simple: to gauge the effect that departmental security will have on gameplay long-term. So basically, we're not interested in the question of, "Is this specific implementation mechanically fit for purpose," we're more curious about the effects this would have on gameplay once the playerbase has gotten used to it.

The very long-term play here is to figure out if this method of implementing security is worth employing for NBT or not. This test merge is actually the last major stop before work can proceed in earnest.

For this end, this test merge shall last a minimum of 1 week, potentially more, depending. We'll update if the latter ends up being the case.

Regarding feedback. First, any critical bugs or oversights should be reported on the PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8209.

Any actual feedback you are free to leave on this thread, but beware: we will likely also be submitting a structured feedback form, which is going to be our primary basis for any decisions made here. On top of what the admin and development team is able to gleam from their own observations. When submitting your feedback, please consider that implementation minutiae is not final. So if there's a vending machine missing or something like that, do make a note of it somewhere on this thread, but please do try to see the forest from the trees: we're primarily concerned with evaluating the gameplay effects. (Unless said minutiae is critical to gameplay, like missing job equipment or whatever, of course.) Implementation details can be hammered out in later iterations.

Thaat should be it. Be civil. And enjoy the game!

[sonicgotnuked]

I really like the concept of this. But a big glaring issue is the amount of access that this enables security. It allows them practically access to vast swaths of the department with security comms easily accessible for quick and easy reinforcements. Now instead of glaring down at you from the brig, they're glaring down in the middle of your department.  

 

I've noticed a vast difference in behavior of interactions when security is present. Suddenly people are not going to talk about the spicy time they broke some regulation or the drama that may occur. I still feel like security is still a centralized forced but more spread out now with rounds I've played doing HoS and trying to antag during departmental sec.

[Peppermint]

I've been enjoying it. Away from the active mechanical/access problems, the biggest issue I've seen really is the whole SEC MAN BAD mentality of certain departments. Engineering and cargo, mostly. I get where they're coming from and there's certainly a bit of a weird dynamic when the officer is around, but I'd imagine this is something that can be fixed over time. It's also probably worth remembering that sec is usually aware of the weird shit y'all are doing, most people just don't care. So the whole tiptoeing around feels kinda odd.

[Scheveningen]

I kind of preferred when security was this blob of a conflicting interest to other departments. As I predicted, it seems like antagonists have an eyewitness plus an officer to worry about in every department instead of just the eyewitness alone. It's kind of difficult to do much when an officer in each department is accounting for who is who, and who is where, and who hasn't spoken up in awhile (being quiet = automatically suspicious).

While this does theoretically open up opportunities for team antags to pick apart departments piece by piece and absorb people into a rabble a lot easier, individual antagonists have to worry about a gun in every department. Avoiding the blob of security was much easier, since sec has to navigate over and around themselves when they were grouped in the old version.

"Got a warrant?" doesn't seem as powerful as a statement at the moment.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Scheveningen

[Snakebittenn]

I've been enjoying it thus far. The main complaint I'd have is the offices, and I'm still not sure about Engineering Officer (often the guys you're going to be hanging out with are going to be out and about.) Otherwise;
I feel like this offers more character opportunities for me, if I can get the kind of Officer I want consistently. I also like hanging out with other departments far more than I like hanging out with other Security in most cases.

[WickedCybs]

I really like dep sec so far. The office placement not so much in some cases. They also seem too big, rivalling a few of the head offices in size, like the CE or HoS. For engineering specifically, it takes up too much space at the "front" as well, making the actual front desk very tiny. Not to mention, they stole our paper bin ?.

I do not really like the supply office location either. Missing out on the vendors and maintenance exist near disposals feels pretty bad to me since it was a natural spot. You'd have to step all the way to the far end of the bar or go through the maintenance entrance by the chapel and wind your way down if you are not a member of supply.

The science officer and medical officer locations are probably my favourite even though it cut the maintenance maze in half in the formers case. Having them relatively out of the way rather than dominating a departments main space is how I like things. 

[Happy_Fox]

The few rounds I've played alongside a science officer (before I gave up trying to play Scientist due to the how this has seemingly broken RnD console access) were good. I've only seen one bit of questionable behaviour in the department's officer being used as a "skeleton key" to permit access to areas staff otherwise don't have access to. Other than that it's been okay, I'm very happy with the Science Officer's location and feel it makes more sense for a department that has so much going on in the sub level for them to be situated near the elevator.

[Brayce]

http://prntscr.com/r8a7pe

Suggestions wise this is it. If the engineering officer has to be in the front at least push the office in one tile on each side. It's extraordinarily large at the moment. Other Suggestions from the Engineering side of things

• Put the Holopad back in the main foyer instead of locking it behind the security office. (red Square)
• Readding the Guest terminal to engineering. (Purple square, or Green square replaced with a reinforced wall)
• Please put the paper bin back in the main area. It's often used for wires and other engineering related info between people. Having to commit trespassing every round while iconic of the department shouldn't be required to write down wires.

Overall though I've had fairly good experiences with the few Engineering officers I've encountered. They were pretty cool to play against weren't super gung-ho about engineering doing their occasional hacking to get where they need to be, and were chill. 

That said the amount of access the security department has overall now is pretty staggering, and I can't see it being un-abused for long. There are reasons why there were mechanical restrictions put in place, and the little scramble to add additional locks to things that sec shouldn't have is already indicating that it is. You cannot just ahelp all the instances abuse. The other two concerns I have I can't confirm so maybe someone else can A. That all of security has maintenance access again, and B. Every officer having access to an additional channel / office it feels like they're becoming discount command with more guns, less oversight, and slightly less access to affect the station as whole.

[Peppermint]

1 hour ago, Brayce said:

http://prntscr.com/r8a7pe

Suggestions wise this is it. If the engineering officer has to be in the front at least push the office in one tile on each side. It's extraordinarily large at the moment. Other Suggestions from the Engineering side of things

• Put the Holopad back in the main foyer instead of locking it behind the security office. (red Square)
• Readding the Guest terminal to engineering. (Purple square, or Green square replaced with a reinforced wall)
• Please put the paper bin back in the main area. It's often used for wires and other engineering related info between people. Having to commit trespassing every round while iconic of the department shouldn't be required to write down wires.

Overall though I've had fairly good experiences with the few Engineering officers I've encountered. They were pretty cool to play against weren't super gung-ho about engineering doing their occasional hacking to get where they need to be, and were chill. 

That said the amount of access the security department has overall now is pretty staggering, and I can't see it being un-abused for long. There are reasons why there were mechanical restrictions put in place, and the little scramble to add additional locks to things that sec shouldn't have is already indicating that it is. You cannot just ahelp all the instances abuse. The other two concerns I have I can't confirm so maybe someone else can A. That all of security has maintenance access again, and B. Every officer having access to an additional channel / office it feels like they're becoming discount command with more guns, less oversight, and slightly less access to affect the station as whole.

The maint access has been removed again, at least...kind of? Access in general is super fucky rn, where each department feels totally random as to where you can't go. Medical and engineering have basically nothing (You have the halls for engineering and the breakroom, but you can't actually access anything else), whilst science has literally the entire department including xen and the like.

 

But at the same time, if sec's access is stripped further, it feels like it totally removes part of the point of it in the first place; why bother having an officer at all if they can't go anywhere? Not sure what to do/how that can be remedied though. 

[GreenBoi]

As I said before, turn the 'offices' into 3x3 utility rooms. They don't need to be comfy, just little desks for officers to watch and work. It does not need to be big and have enough room for an interview because security officers won't really be having meetings/interviews in their offices, or at all- most of the time.

 

Quick Guide to the Image Pictured:

-Yellow would be the location for a sec console

-Red is a wall-mounted pepperspray refiller

-Dark blue would be a locker- with handheld radios spawning inside them, if possible

-The Grey table by the Yellow console would have a window tint button. The ones behind would have a recharger and a laptop- the laptop should have an RFID port so Warrant Assistant can properly be used

 

3x3 utility rooms prevent taking away an obnoxious amount of space, and also condense everything needed into something easily accessible while also not being great at fortifying a lone person.

 

For my actual opinions, read this spoiler.

Spoiler

I don't mind it too much, but I do think it ultimately gives Security MORE power and influence. Now they'll have constant updates on what's going on in practically every department, the ability to give OTHER officers access to these departments (effective all-access when they group up) and they don't really need warrants to snoop and search departments that much.

 

As schev said, "Got a warrant?" is less effective because if it's your depsec- they have the access to just freely check anywhere, basically. Their only limit would be searching you and that makes it very rough and hard for antags. I think this will give Security too much territory and access, honestly.

 

[Shenaanigans]

It's definitely an odd thing to be acclimating to, but I'll tentatively make my stance that it has been good for facilitating more interactions between security and the other departments so far. Departments that would only ever really see an officer in passing in the hall, or when the whole complement of security is busting in to deal with an antag, now have more casual RP going on with the one stationed in their space. Which I like.

The only gripe I have to air is one that's already been mentioned-- large amounts of access. I'm of the opinion that security should really only have access to as much as janitors in their respective departments (GTR in medical, main halls of science, lobby of cargo, etc.) so they're not stepping on toes in the more specialized areas nor breathing down antag's necks at all times. Cargo officers also seem to have full access to the cargo control program??? Which is... weird to say the least. Officers shouldn't have the access to do the job of the department they're stationed in. Also yeah, their offices could stand to be smaller so they're a bit less intrusive.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Shenaanigans

[WickedCybs]

I think the recent changes to the offices were very good, especially supply. Rather excited to see how this ends up.

[thebest_player757]

I like dep sec a lot, had a lot of fun with it. It makes enough sense to have security officers stationed with each department. Antags might be inhibited a bit by it, but y'all are creative, Im sure it's simple enough to get around one slimy sec man in his office. 

2 hours ago, Shenaanigans said:

Cargo officers also seem to have full access to the cargo control program??? 

This seems to be because they have flat "cargo" access, and people with "cargo" access can use the cargo console. It is a bit strange, but the solution is either adding a bunch of weird access flags or keeping it how it is I guess, I dunno. 

 

I do have some questions about the expected roleplay/predictions on what might happen with this though. What are they expected to do while in the department? By this I mean, I feel like you're generally going to see 2 kinds of dep officers, ones who do nothing but bury their noses in whatever a department is doing at all times, and ones that are extremely hands off, if you get my picture. 

[Scheveningen]

Dept sec seems okay but warrants need to be more heavily enforced instead of the department sec officers giving skeleton key access to respective departments.

[Soultheif96]

To heavily enforce warrants, either the captain/heads of staff demand there be a warrant on code green, failure to provide the warrant and continuing to let in unauthorized personnel should lead to action such as a demotion, suspension, or otherwise necessary. If this is not enforced properly, CCIA could make a notice/announcement stating the following:

"Departmental Security Notice:

Officers assigned to a department may have access to their department and conduct security operations, however, abuse of this access such as allowing other officers into the department without justifiable cause or warrant is subject to action deemed fit by heads of staff/captain under Code Green. On Code Blue or higher, all actions are authorized to ensure the safety of the station and crew.

This also includes misuse of equipment within the assigned department, they may have access, but it does not mean they should use advanced equipment such as the protolathe or enter the engine room without supervision." 

Somewhere along these lines.

[Fortport]

I'm enjoying it so far. I've been getting along with the departments I am an officer for, but the offices are relatively underequipped. A problem every office has is that none of them have a recharger, crowbar, station bounced radio, or maglight. No pepperspray refiller either. These are essentials. Their offices are huge and could afford at least these things somewhere, just one of each.

Medical Officer does not have access to the medbay smoking lounge, oddly enough. But going into the break room is okay?

Other than that, I can't think of anything specific for the other departments. As I play more, I may have more to say. But that's my hot take on things that could improve.

---

Edited February 28, 2020 by Fortport

[ben10083]

in regards to trying to limit dept sec officer access, no one wants to be simply standing in a hallway begging for a antag to walk in. it is also a can of worms in deciding what is allowed and not allowed to be accessed.

[ClemTheDuck]

It would be nice to have stuff like bowman department sec radios in each of the offices too, currently there is just standard sec radios. Its minor but its for the aesthetic yknow?

 

Other than that, i really like the idea of department sec, its integrated pretty well and allows for sec officers to have better connections with different departments.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ClemTheDuck

[niennab]

I wanted to possibly suggest having all of the departmental security titles still in the security manifest. Whenever I play my Forensic Technician, I have a bit of trouble knowing which departments have an Officer and which done. As such, Security needs only look at their department roster and the other departments will look to Security to see if they have an Officer with them on shift.

Here's a shitty example I made using one round:

[AmoryBlaine]

On 27/02/2020 at 19:25, Soultheif96 said:

Officers assigned to a department may have access to their department and conduct security operations, however, abuse of this access such as allowing other officers into the department without justifiable cause or warrant is subject to action deemed fit by heads of staff/captain under Code Green. On Code Blue or higher, all actions are authorized to ensure the safety of the station and crew.

What's justifiable reason to be in a department? You don't want Officers talking to each other within their assigned departments? You only want them in these areas specifically after having received a warrant with access? The station is small. No matter what you do, you cannot stop Security from getting where they need to go with this change, nor before. The opposite to this is what happened with Maint change, the area is now a dead zone used by hardly anyone outside specific reasons, briefly. for all intents and purposes the area may as well not exist.

As it stands, this is a terrible change. Security has been buffed massively, any attempt to dampen this only serves as a temporary solution, as people readjust again. What can be taken away from this- aside from Sec being "easier" to access by other departments in a sense of "I don't like having to move from my chair, thank you for putting the officer nearer to me."- is that we should maybe restructure departments so they don't need Security in "their" Departments. Remap things in a way that merges most departments in order to better facilitate the praised "interaction" between Departments and Sec, with Departments and Departments. Place Security offices throughout these merged departments. Make better use of our multi-levels. Then, yes. Departmental Sec in a sense of strategically placed offices and officers makes sense. A lot more than placing them in every department, and having every department exist in a very small circle where it's fast for Security to move between each seperate department, but far enough apart as to not encourage other Depts to interact with each other.

 

[Scheveningen]

9 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

What's justifiable reason to be in a department?

having a warrant. Two officers from completely different departments should not be having a social visit in a work office in another department. They should be having a social visit somewhere else in a place where relaxing is appropriate.

[ben10083]

9 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

19 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

What's justifiable reason to be in a department?

having a warrant. Two officers from completely different departments should not be having a social visit in a work office in another department. They should be having a social visit somewhere else in a place where relaxing is appropriate.

1. Warrants are used to show there is a justifiable reason, the reason cant be the warrant itself.

2. ok then, lets remove the following areas to make sure crew members stay in the common Social gathering area provided to them generiously by NanoTrasen Corporation

• Engineering break room
• conference rooms
• medical lobby (renamed to "medical transfer intermediary") 
• Sec lobby
• Red dock (Crew will be assigned to their respective transfer cube to standby for shuttle to prevent violations of the social order by socializing in the incorrect zones.)

The examples are obviously satire, but they highlight how it doesnt matter where they socialize. If they want to visit their friend who is working in Engineering department, so be it. If they have a problem they can ignore them.

[Scheveningen]

1. Warrants cannot reasonably exist in a sequence of roleplay events without reasonable cause attached to them. Abusing the ability to write warrants for an arbitrary reason inevitably leads to a non-negotiable secban. Ergo, pointless clarification, as literally no one writes up warrants for no reason lest they desire to no longer play the security department. Warrants are supposed to and/or get written up as a result of something happening.

2. Interesting red herring, I'm not biting, however.

Yes, it does matter where you socialize. There exist inappropriate places to socialize. Two officers who are responsible for two completely different departments that are chatting in a departmental security office, is a pretty big deal considering it pertains to one's dereliction of post whereas the other is tolerating their colleague's dereliction of post. Likewise, if an antag does something nearby, those two officers will most likely instantly respond. And a problem such as this is what departmental security was supposed to defeat from an OOC standpoint, was it not?

[Snakebittenn]

I think it should be important for the Heads of Staff to also retain control over their officers on blue alert. They need to be decentralized from the main Security body where possible (except, I guess, on code red, and manhunts/*severe* emergencies) or it's completely missing the point. It turns from 'departmental security' to 'security stationed in departments.'

[Scheveningen]

1 hour ago, ParadoxSpace said:

I think it should be important for the Heads of Staff to also retain control over their officers on blue alert. They need to be decentralized from the main Security body where possible (except, I guess, on code red, and manhunts/*severe* emergencies) or it's completely missing the point. It turns from 'departmental security' to 'security stationed in departments.'

yes. entirely yes. if "blobcurity bad" then actions need to be taken to ensure the amount of occasions where sec turns into a blob of baton-waving crayon munchers needs to be minimal.