Feedback Thread - Det/CSI Merge

[Susan]

It can be found here: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/11392

Verbatim from the PR, 

By merging detective/CSI into a universal investigator role, it can help alleviate the CBT of them being separate. Reasoning in these mapping changes:

-Sec has bloat. Remove briefing room. Security spawns in the upstairs classroom, which is never used anyway, so by making it the defacto meeting area it can help give the upper level some traffic.

-Investigations and evidence moved to main level. Antags had CBT trying to break in to sabotage or steal things due to their weird placement and only access point being thru 300 security doors or space on the interstitial level.

-Add a break room in place of old detective's office. You can put your lunchboxes in the fridge, now, wowee. Cool. The training wing gets literally no foot traffic as it is, perhaps now this will provide an RP incentive to be upstairs.

-Regular officers cannot access evidence. The lab has a desk, like the armory or warden's counter. Evidence storage is down to 9 closets, from 12, but I have never used that many, so... it's at least right by the lab.

-Forensics being in the back of security gives it traffic. There was absolutely no reason to be back there post round start anymore.

And finally, it is a two-slot role.

[Flpfs]

I quite like these changes and believe that uniting both investigative roles will be a much needed breath of fresh air

[niennab]

Personally I would rather keep the roles separate. I feel each has it's own flavour and to combine the roles would more or less mean that we'll lose that in addition the likelihood that we'll have two CSI geared characters or two Detective geared characters fighting over anything that might pertain to their role during the round.

[Shenaanigans]

I would agree that the space the brig currently occupies on the map is HUGE and could do with substantial downsizing, but I've gotta disagree on merging CSI and detective into one role. The responsibilities of the two roles are distinct and there's already enough competition over the investigation slots without reducing it to one and forcing investigations characters to either have to fight twice as hard or be played as an officer to see any time in a round.

[Susan]

Functionally, detective may not as well exist. Any officer can question people or take a statement or follow up on a lead - the detective, realistically, has nothing to offer to the station. They are basically officer-lite. 

If the roles are merged, I have been told that their qualifications will be looked at, so the likelihood of 'two detectives who don't know anything' will be lower. What the qualifications will be, I do not know - but fundamentally, the single role will have two slots, so the fighting over the roles will not be impacted, as the percentage is really about the same.

[Cnaym]

As someone having to deal with the worst security position for far too long this has my full support. The detectives were used as investigator by a minority of players at best. Most of them either cryoed early when they did not get the antag slot desired, thought they were in any position to command officers around when no HoS was around, or performed absolutely disgusting frontlining with half the armory. I have not experienced more lrp behavior from any other role on the station, this being a problem with the role being appealing to new players which get the wrong idea of it and sadly experienced security players abusing the role in disgusting ways. I would love to see an investigation department, not a "I refuse to give the HoS the captains spare back when asked multiple times" department.

The mapping is solid and functional, which is more important to me than the design choices since those are up for personal taste.

To me this looks like the first passion project to improve the security department in a long while and I applaud you for trying to improve something.

[Carver]

I'm sad to see Detective gone, but can only hope the combined role retains his varied and wonderful closet of formal apparel.

[KingOfThePing]

Finally. The Detective is a stupid relic from a long gone age, that made no sense in any way whatsoever. I am also glad about the reduced bloat in security. People laigh about the medbay, but sec is in no way better. I think this is a very good change and it has my fullest of full support. I'd even go as far and reduce it to 1 slot, but I can see the reasoning on why it has to be 2. 

 

Very good, very overdue. 

[BunkyB]

Detective gamer speaking.

The Detective role is super outdated, a lot of the points have already been said, so I'll skip over the Detective role entierly.
I do like Detective being a separate role but I'm not totally against the roles being merged; sharing an office with a CSI buddy is something I've wanted to do for a long time.

 

Couple questions, though:

Will there be separate job titles? Or will it be a single blanket-term "Investigator" job title?
Why remove Officers access to Evidence Storage? Seems like a step back.
There's only one set of machines in the forensics lab, is this intentional? Two sets of machines would be better.
FT and Det have access to the medical records, (criminal psychology, blood types, etc.) Will the consoles in the Investigations office have Medical Records pre-installed?
Are the windows of the office tint-able? If so remove the windows from this door.
 

And some things I'd like to see changed:

Windoors in these three locations.
Stairs here; they add a lot more depth to the department.
Move the air alarm to here, giving people room for flags above their lockers.
And moving the CSI kits to this rack in the main office.

[Susan]

4 minutes ago, BunkyB said:

Will there be separate job titles? Or will it be a single blanket-term "Investigator" job title?

It will be a blanket 'investigator' job title. I would have gone with 'corporate investigator', but given that contractors can continue to play these roles, I felt a vague term was more fitting.

  

4 minutes ago, BunkyB said:

Why remove Officers access to Evidence Storage? Seems like a step back.

To ensure that evidence cannot be misused or manhandled; security should not be looting evidence storage for antag tools. Additionally, it being in close proximity to the lab is useful for the forensics team, and there is a desk officers can access to pass anything they've found across to be catalogued. Ideally, evidence storage and processing should be the sole realm of responsibility for the investigative division, free to sort without officers mucking everything up.,

  

4 minutes ago, BunkyB said:

There's only one set of machines in the forensics lab, is this intentional? Two sets of machines would be better.

It is intentional, yes. You can assign the sorting of evidence between yourselves - ideally, one should be doing on the ground investigating and the other processing, but the goal here is not to turn the lab into a factory.

 

4 minutes ago, BunkyB said:

FT and Det have access to the medical records, (criminal psychology, blood types, etc.) Will the consoles in the Investigations office have Medical Records pre-installed?

The investigations consoles have not changed, and they will retain all their existing functions, including medical records.

As for the map changes - I will look into it, but I am not really a huge fan of excessive windoors. Reinforced windows are used in substitution of partitions here, and the intent was not to wholly close off areas but add visual interest.

[Cnaym]

1 hour ago, BunkyB said:

Will there be separate job titles? Or will it be a single blanket-term "Investigator" job title?

Job requirements will get a slight adjustment and the wiki pages will need some reworking, so in the future there may be one or two alt titles depending on where lore/admins want to go with it. May want to see how it plays out and make a suggestion about having an alt title if required and desired.

[Peppermint]

I like these changes, though I am sympathetic to those worried about how their own characters would slot in - I imagine there will be ways around that, so wouldn't worry too much too soon. The map changes are especially nice, if only to break up the department somewhat. Likewise it's fairly rare imo to come across an FT who can't do detective stuff and vice versa anyway, plus just because the title is more ambiguous does not mean character backstory would have to be limited somehow. If anything, it should offer more flexibility. 

[Lmwevil]

i'm glad to see the slots be combined personally 

[TrainTN]

I never liked the Detective/Forensics divide. It always seemed strange and unnecessary to me. What kind of investigator can't do both of those things? Even an officer with only a half-decent education should know basic crime scene analysis and interrogation methods. Being forced by role to do only one or the other seemed bizarre, and turned me off from playing a role I think I would otherwise greatly enjoy. I hope the merge happens so I can make a character for it without those weird restrictions hampering what I want to do.

The remap itself also looks good for the most part. The offices and lab arrangement looks nice and better integrated into the department as a whole, and a breakroom for the officers is a nice thing to have as well for those extended rounds. Overall I like all these changes and hope to see them implemented.

[WickedCybs]

I like the remap, gives a bit more flavour and use for an otherwise empty sublevel.

 As for the changes to the roles, no real strong opinion. I don't really do investigations much.

[Arrow768]

The poll is finished.
Those are the results after a bit of cleanup:

I dont care: 22
Yes - Merge the detective and FT into the Investigator: 88
No - Keep the roles as they are: 38

[TrainTN]

That's a lot more votes than I expected to see, and I'm pleased to see the results. Is there an estimate on when this will be implemented? Sometime this week, or next week, or longer?

[Arrow768]

The Detective and Forensic Technician have been merged into the Investigator role.
To accommodate characters lacking the 4 week cadetship (that was previously required for the detective) while maintaining the ability (of the detective) to detain people (if the Investigator directly witnesses a infraction) the following change is now in effect:

• Investigators who do not have a 4 week cadetship on their employment and security records and detain someone can be charged with: "Illegal Detention, Arrest, or Holding"
• Investigators who utilize their firearms outside of self-defense and do not have a 4 week cadetship on record can be charged with: "Gross Negligence"

For example. If a Investigator without a 4 week cadetship stuns a person with their sidearm and detains them, they are to be charged with "Illegal Detention" and "Gross Negligence"

[Faris]

I think we should cut out the cadetship part and just say they cannot enforce arrest warrants or detain people for witnesses infractions. 
 

The only exception to this I can think of is interfering to rescue someone from being attacked which is something other crew can also do. This way the guns are only a tool for self defense or the defense of others in the rare instances of the exception I mentioned. 

[Faris]

Double post as I just read the new wiki page. Correct me if I missed something.

Their qualification is either an applicable criminal forensics degree or criminal forensics/investigation experience. Is there a particular reason applicable criminal investigation degrees aren’t mentioned? 
 

Additionally, what is the stance on characters that have previously existed as Detectives but now have access to full forensic tools, are they now expected to be able to do autopsies or is the standard the ability to at least do some basic forensic work? Or is there another stance on this? 

[Arrow768]

9 minutes ago, Aboshedab said:

Double post as I just read the new wiki page. Correct me if I missed something.

Their qualification is either an applicable criminal forensics degree or criminal forensics/investigation experience. Is there a particular reason applicable criminal investigation degrees aren’t mentioned?

The qualifications of the detective and the FT were the same before this change.
The only difference was the cadetship.

(So they were directly copied over, with the only change to the qualifications being the optional cadetship)

  

10 minutes ago, Aboshedab said:

Additionally, what is the stance on characters that have previously existed as Detectives but now have access to full forensic tools, are they now expected to be able to do autopsies or is the standard the ability to at least do some basic forensic work? Or is there another stance on this? 

There is the expectation that the Investigators are able to perform basic forensic work (Fibers/Prints/DNA).
Depending on how this change works out, there might be further changes to the qualifications.

[Doxxmedearly]

41 minutes ago, Aboshedab said:

I think we should cut out the cadetship part and just say they cannot enforce arrest warrants or detain people for witnesses infractions. 
 

The only exception to this I can think of is interfering to rescue someone from being attacked which is something other crew can also do. This way the guns are only a tool for self defense or the defense of others in the rare instances of the exception I mentioned. 

Strongly agree.

In theory being charged would be a deterrent for people treating investigators as officer 5 and 6. In practice, security rarely has the option (due to hectic rounds, bad communication, etc.) or desire to enforce any regulations on its own department. While I understand this was copied over from detective, might be best to just remove the option.

37 minutes ago, Arrow768 said:

There is the expectation that the Investigators are able to perform basic forensic work (Fibers/Prints/DNA).

Unless the wiki says "Yes it's okay not to know how to do autopsies" you can bet people are gonna be getting shit for having a character who can't do it (This is a common theme throughout every department). Should consider amending it with what's expected at bare minimum.

[CampinKiller]

I agree with Abo regarding the cadetship part - either remove it outright or allow exceptions for violent acts occurring in their presence. If an investigator arrests a murderer that they just witnessed murder somebody, I would not be charging them for Gross Negligence and Illegal Detention/Arrest/Holding. Far from it, I would be commending them for stopping a murderer.

[Peppermint]

Mmm. Not sure how I feel about investigations and the arresting cadetship, as it's now two 'maybes' rather than one. Detective could previously throw down, but with the addition of an extra role, it seems like a bit too much temptation. Agree with Abo/Doxx it should probably be ired away from.

[Arrow768]

To clear something up:
We plan to monitor how this PR works out over the coming weeks (as usual) and plan to make changes to it if needed.