Make the Executive Officer the ship's second in command.

[Kintsugi]

I am making this thread as an alternative to - 

 

The fact of the matter is that I think the fear over having a member of command outrank the others is unreasonable and I don't feel it presents any meaningful problems. I think having a more concrete chain of command will create a better dynamic within command and also make more sense with regards to the XO's position aboard the ship.

 

[DriedMilk]

yes please idk why xo isnt second in command yet 

[Garnascus]

I have never played any of my command characters during NBT so i am not entirely sure how the current hierarchy works. Reading the wiki is all well and good but... what does the executive officer do now? Is the role hampered by not being able to order command around?

[Carver]

I absolutely despise the idea of the XO being second-in-command, and cannot see it happening unless the Captain's species limitations are extended to it. The current council system is functional and prevents any one member of Command (barring the Captain of course) lording over the rest. The XO does not need to be stepping out of bounds and trying to lead everyone else unless they are majority voted into the position of Acting Captain as one would vote any other member of command into the position.

[Boggle08]

This entails much more than a simple change. The aformentioned council dynamic is an environment where equals among equals can advise, question, and second guess the captain. There's a mechanism built into this arrangement that(theoretically lol) allows command to overturn decisions as a collective. We'd have to rethink command's internal decision making process and manage an internal chain of command that alters itself every time someone different shows up on the manifest.

For the XO role itself, without a captain, this is effectively a captain slot. I outrank everyone if my captain isn't on, so I can go ahead and give myself interim. Doesn't matter if I'm something besides a human or a skrell too. What is allowed to play XO might have to change because of this (and frankly, I'm not partial to drastic change on the matter).

Another issue will be the XO's relationship between the rest of command and the Captain. Are they meant to be the captain's closest advisor, or a yes man and enforcer of their command authority? Are they in a position where it is proper for them to second guess and question the captain when in council with the rest of command? I could see the XO destroying the balance of power by being a regulation backed element to strengthen any captain's position, or as a destabilizing element that can rapidly undermine their boss's authority.

This is a curious idea to ponder, but it needs to be pondered.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Boggle08

[La Villa Strangiato]

I'm only a command member on trial, but the funny thing is about the XO not officially being second-in-command is that everyone already treats me like I'm basically second-in-command. I try not to involve myself in the matters of other departments, except when the head of security gets conked and the department needs to know what's going on, but this doesn't really seem to bother people if I do step in and give my two cents.

When you hang around as XO, your fellow command people look to you as the Captain's second-in-command because you're the one organising the bridge crew, trying to open communication lines between departments, and generally having rather limited duties apart from being the Captain's pet paper-pusher. Naturally, this opens you up to a lot of free time, and you become the Captain's secondary delegator, a person who acts as a second filter to the command channel. I have been elevated to acting Captain to back another head's decision, had my opinions considered on what to charge an aantag with if I added some extra information over the security channel, and generally been treated with a lot more authority than the XO's description implies.

This is kind of how I'm used to it being on Bay, but I've been trying to reign in my Bay instincts when I play command because obviously we're a corporate structure and the XO doesn't have a military/governmental organisation rank on Aurora. But it was pretty funny to go in like "alright, I'm not a military commander, I just gotta boss the bridge crew around and be the HR guy-- wait, you wanna make me acting Captain?"

I don't really have a definitive answer to this question, but this is just my experience as playing XO. It could be entirely different than someone else's experience playing XO!

[Sneakyranger]

I like the council system that we usually end up using in command, but being honest - as LVS said - the XO already performs a lot of the functions of a second in command for the command team. This is primarily because the job has nothing that really needs attention most of the time. You can say that they manage the bridge crew and service, but those staff: 
1. Rarely need any intervention from the XO.
2. Are perfectly capable of contacting whoever they will most often need to contact on their own.
3. Do not really need a voice in command to act as a relay for their department (service has nothing to say most of the time that requires a command ear - e.g a C.M.O may need to relay casualty levels and whether medical is being swamped, a chef does not have anything on the same level. Bridge crew have command channel access.)

This leads to the XO naturally taking on command duties that require command but don't require a specific member of command. Mediation, department promotions/demotions, and so on. 

I therefore feel like there could be a benefit to elevating the executive officer to a position where the title would make sense, but also don't feel that that needs to be a second in command (and therefore basically Captain-lite), per se; formalizing them as the mediator between department/department head disagreements that heads of staff can't reconcile on their own, as a sort of advisor to all other heads of staff, and as the general command goon to go around and solve the command problems that don't require department-specific knowledge would serve to both make the name of the role make sense and also bring the job description closer to what the role actually ends up doing.

I'm not entirely committed to the idea as I haven't sat down and thought through it seriously, but I felt it worth throwing out for evaluation because I think it's a reasonable middle ground between captain-lite and the currently murky function of the executive officer as it is now.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Sneakyranger

[Fluffy]

1 hour ago, Boggle08 said:

The aformentioned council dynamic is an environment where equals among equals can advise, question, and second guess the captain.

That would neverthless still happens, just because the XO is the next in line of succession, doesn't mean that when the Captain is present, he has any additional power over the rest of the head.

If I mark a lightbulb as the next to be used if/when the main one burns, it doesn't mean that lightbulb becomes a special lightbulb with anything else than any other lightbulb, it just means "yes, when lightbulb X breaks, I will mount lightbulb Y in this socket".

 

1 hour ago, Boggle08 said:

There's a mechanism built into this arrangement that(theoretically lol) allows command to overturn decisions as a collective.

Which still works, as it would work if the roundstart Captain would be insane, compromised, or anything else, the rest of the heads can depose or overturn the XO's decision, it would still be an acting captain, just a designated one that, presumably, has the most appropriate skillset (IC) and situational knowledge to succeed the Captain in a crisis.

 

1 hour ago, Boggle08 said:

We'd have to rethink command's internal decision making process and manage an internal chain of command that alters itself every time someone different shows up on the manifest.

As how it would make sense to be, during an emergency: you don't want to try to figure out who should take the lead and resolve an imminent emergency while you're being shot or a group of intruders are wiping the crew, nor you want to get stuck with two factions of people (eg. HOS+XO vs CE+CMO) that cannot reach an agreement on if we should do X or not, with no way to resolve that situation because the votes are perfectly equal, thus noone could be elected acting captain and commit to one decision (I am making an example, I don't recall this happening, but AFAIK it's perfectly possible according to our regulations to be stuck in a deadlock with an even number of heads).

 

1 hour ago, Boggle08 said:

For the XO role itself, without a captain, this is effectively a captain slot. I outrank everyone if my captain isn't on, so I can go ahead and give myself interim.

If it's an emergency, yes.

The point would be that it happens when there was a Captain before, something bad happened, there is no Captain anymore; it's not the point "we're in extended vibing at the bar but you acquire captainship because you outrank every other head", it's a "use this chain of command during an emergency when the crap hit the fan".

 

1 hour ago, Boggle08 said:

Doesn't matter if I'm something besides a human or a skrell too.

I believe it is permissible to have a cat XO handle an emergency, just like if he was voted acting captain, for the sake of resolving an emergency aboard, without barring the role from non-captain species, as it's supposed to be a rare and contingent situation, not normal ship administration?

 

1 hour ago, Boggle08 said:

Another issue will be the XO's relationship between the rest of command and the Captain. Are they meant to be the captain's closest advisor, or a yes man and enforcer of their command authority? Are they in a position where it is proper for them to second guess and question the captain when in council with the rest of command?

The answer is: yes.

For how I see it, the Captain deals with what, the XO deals with how.

The Captain decides to want a new secure bunker? The XO coordinate the heads of the departments, external suppliers, BCs, whatever might be, to have said thing done.

Having an handle on how things are happening, in case the Captain disappears due to a random bunker buster shell (any reference to events or people are purely casual™), and knowing how the ship and its weapons work etc, it's the most logical head to acquire captainship in an emergency situation, followed by the HoS.

It is also not a pAI, so the XO can indeed give suggestions and opinions, just like every other head, and likewise enforces the command authority if the Captain is not compromised or unfit, just like every other head.

I have, in the half a year or so that I play, never seen the Captain being removed from position via a vote, or an insane Captain taking crazy decisions that would require such, anyways.

[CampinKiller]

I have never seen the XO as the second in command, even unofficially. I think the cons of elevating one head over the others vastly outweigh the pros. Allowing one head role authority over others will cause a behavior creep that we saw back when the HoP was considered 2nd in command at all times; that is, the XO is going to start stepping on other heads and telling them what to do when it is not warranted. Similar to the discussion about not wanting the Command Advisor to backseat the command staff, I myself do not want to be backseated by an XO when I am playing a head.

Edited February 16, 2023 by CampinKiller

[Boggle08]

1 minute ago, Fluffy said:

[snip]

I'm not sure what your point is. Being second in command carries the implicit notion that you supersede the rest of your peers with respect to command authority. The Captain/XO relationship your describing sounds similar to the dynamic between XO's and their constituent BC's. If there is no difference in the XO's authority prior to this change, why entertain it besides "flavor?"

[Robotic Potato]

I do genuinely think it would be good for one of these options to happen. A change in title to something like "Bridge Officer" or "Chief Bridge Officer" to reflect what they'll usually be doing or making them a true second in command. I suppose I'll say I think I trust most head players to use the role well and to still rely on the other heads at appropriate times instead of super seceding them if not for that why even have a "whitelist". Should they do so anyways though we already have a system of command voting together to make Captain level decisions which could perhaps nullify their position as Second in Command, or the Captain themselves could obviously remove that authority via petition from Command members.

[Fluffy]

4 minutes ago, Boggle08 said:

I'm not sure what your point is. Being second in command carries the implicit notion that you supersede the rest of your peers with respect to command authority. The Captain/XO relationship your describing sounds similar to the dynamic between XO's and their constituent BC's. If there is no difference in the XO's authority prior to this change, why entertain it besides "flavor?"

Maybe it's a wording selection issue, but by "second in command" I intend it as "second in line of succession", so that "if the first person, who holds the command, is incapacitated or removed, you inherit it"

So, assuming that there's a Captain, an XO, an HoS and a RD, this is the thing I have in my mind when I say "second in command":

 

• Normal round: nothing happens, the captain decide what, the XO coordinate between the heads to have it done (while the captain does other things: decide where the ship goes, fax central, handle offship comms requests, explain to the 4 guys in heavy EVA suits with assault rifles that we won't pay six quadrillion credits, etc. etc., you know the drill)
   
• Emergency: following what is happening in the "normal round" scenario, the heavy EVA suits guys decide that they really like their six quadrillion credits and, annoyed at the Captain's response, release one of their plentiful magazines on his head, separating it from the rest of his body.
  
  People see it, screams in common, "the captain is dead!!! they killed him!!!", the cogs of this mechanism starts to turn:
  
  The XO opens the chat, "security: retreat to the bridge, engineering: we need barricades up here" (yes, easy example, don't pick on it).
  The Captain is dead, confirmed, cannot be saved, now the XO is, immediately, the acting captain, "the captain is dead, long live the captain".
  No trying to figure out who should acquire it, no delay, no vacant spot: the XO is acting captain the moment the (severed) head of the Captain touches the ground, we have an emergency to handle.
   
• Slightly different emergency: the shots do not sever the head of the Captain, but it is now unable to talk, gets hauled to the surgery room where the CMO and a Surgeon tries to keep him alive, remove one kilogram of lead from his skull, lungs, swap some organs with mechanical ones, and so on.
  
  In the meantime, the XO holds the crown: do we call for offship help? Distress beacon? Fax central? Build trenches along the corridors and scorched earth? Let them take whatever to save lifes? Follow the RD's idea to lock them in a room, make atmos fill it with phoron and set them ablaze? (again, first thing that comes to my mind, don't pick on it) The XO decides until the Captain is able to do it again.
   
• Normal round, without captain: All heads are equal, there's no emergency to address, just like no acting captain gets elected in this situation, the XO does not become the acting captain.
   
• The XO, with the captain present, butts in in departmental matters, or order things around that the Captain never requested: exceeding official powers, just like any other head, unless the Captain says "I want this", you have no authority to do order anything to someone who is not your department subordinate, let alone other heads.

I hope this explains my thought on what I meant, but feel free to ask any clarification (or, indeed, we can ponder other possibilities)!

[Boggle08]

1 hour ago, Sneakyranger said:

[snip]

I feel like you're onto something. I've played a ton of HoP on the aurora, and a little when we started with the Horizon. The role is suited to be an administrative "fixer" for when there's gaps in the roster. Expectations from the crew of what I'm capable of grow more and more as the command roster gets emptier and emptier. Clarifying what is overstepping versus what is perfectly fine is something the XO generally needs. When you're fulfilling a vacancy versus overstepping into someone's lane is a very circumstantial affair, unfortunately.

10 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

[snip]

Automatic crisis deference like that, that's fine in my mind. The role is well suited for it. As long as it's articulated well as an expectation, and the XO has the option to decline.

[CatsinHD]

So, I will throw my hat into the ring and say that I don't think any command should be inherently second in line of succession. And to address the big line:

3 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

"second in command" I intend it as "second in line of succession

This will, without a doubt, be stretched and taken to mean second in command regardless. Whitelist doesn't inherently mean people suddenly stop pushing boundaries on authority and power. Giving someone a wiff of "you are second in line" will give them more leeway to abuse power. Any actions XO's take as de facto 2iC are allowed only so much as the rest of command accepts it. Not having anything remotely close to a "you are second in line or in command" maintains this barrier to abuse.

As for some of the examples:

5 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

the captain decide what, the XO coordinate between the heads to have it done (while the captain does other things: decide where the ship goes, fax central, handle offship comms requests, explain to the 4 guys in heavy EVA suits with assault rifles that we won't pay six quadrillion credits, etc. etc., you know the drill)

I think you have what the primary focus of the captain and XO's roles are meant to be (on Aurora not irl navy ships). The XO handles the bridge, the captain handles delegation and cross-departmental teamwork. Captain decides to renovate the bar but needs new materials. They give you, the XO, the task of maneuvering the ship towards the nearest mineral asteroid. They order the CE to ready up designs for a new bar and send a list of materials to the OM. They then order the OM to let their miners know what to focus on. They also work with the XO to ensure the bartenders don't get too angry their bar is being ripped up for a new one. In this scenario, the captain has the overarching goal: a new bar. They then delegate and coordinate departments to get it done. The XO is coordinating the bridge and BCs to find the miners a mineral asteroid and helping their bartenders not riot.

For almost all of the scenarios you listed, including the immediate death of the captain, command is structured in a way to deal with it without needing an immediate acting captain. Assuming the HoS knows how to handle their teams correctly, security doesn't need to be told to retreat. Most things, such as telling engineering to put up barricades, can be done with a simple please (or without as I have done as CMO), and the other Head of Staff almost always obliges unless there is something truly stopping them. The one area I'll concede on is what happens when the captain is out of commission. Technically, acting captainship can't be taken (or is a waste to), but major command decisions need to be made. If command ever gets to deadlock on those things, which is rare, then I have to admit fair point.

I may be too cautious, and perhaps giving them second in line of succession will be fine, but I'm skeptical regardless.

tldr; Give an inch and they'll take a mile, even with a whitelist. Captain delegates and coordinates inter-departments, XO runs the bridge. Command knows how to handle emergencies even without a given 2iC.

[Fluffy]

3 minutes ago, William Murdoch said:

This will, without a doubt, be stretched and taken to mean second in command regardless. Whitelist doesn't inherently mean people suddenly stop pushing boundaries on authority and power. Giving someone a wiff of "you are second in line" will give them more leeway to abuse power.

I fail to see any reason to do this, the player is whitelisted, do you want the absolute(ish) power on the ship? Make a Captain character, roll the slot, done. 

You don't need a contrived plan on stretching boundaries of what a chain of command with a huge title above that says "to be used during emergencies only" means, you can do it immediately, at roundstart.

Also, an XO that abuses its powers, isn't an XO that will remain in said position for long, as the conglomerate would surely be interested to know why a trustee is abusing its position and power, and ignoring the regulations. Do it too many times, the player's whitelist will be thanos snapped.

 

9 minutes ago, William Murdoch said:

The XO handles the bridge, the captain handles delegation and cross-departmental teamwork.

What would make more sense is that the Captain handles the conflicts, ponders the options, manage offship diplomacy (or lack thereof) and so on, while the executive officer (as the name implies) takes care that the captain's (valid and sane) orders are being executed, so it gets delegated to have the bar built (the captain wish/order), talk with the various head to come up with a plan for it to be done, and let them do each their own piece.

The XO can also handle the manouvering, of course, which they can do directly, but the Captain being in the bridge, with the long range holopad, his office nearby, the meeting room, sensor data, (theoretically) the most secure part of the ship, where all the critical control and informations pass (quite literally, with tcomms right behind it) and diplomacy unfolds, make more sense than the other way around, at least to me.

 

14 minutes ago, William Murdoch said:

For almost all of the scenarios you listed, including the immediate death of the captain, command is structured in a way to deal with it without needing an immediate acting captain.

It's structured to deal with it, only because we currently have no real threat, I still remember the cat OM, during a merc+burglars round (IIRC), being in the bridge, under effect of performance enhancing drugs, threatening my BC with a whip and refusing to be visited by the FR/doctor that came up, angry at my BC to having relayed that he was gasping and vibrating to the Captain (which was thankfully alive), during code red.

That we survive, is because the game is currently rigged from the start for us to survive, not because command is structured in a sensible way to deal with an actual emergency, I believe.

 

19 minutes ago, William Murdoch said:

Assuming the HoS knows how to handle their teams correctly, security doesn't need to be told to retreat.

This depends on who is the HoS, and what is the plan he's thinking about, many would not retreat the troops against an aggressive oppositor that just headgibbed the Captain, even less if they can keep them contained in one specific area, a cross-departmental tactic needs a coordinator, the Captain or whoever acts as is in an emergency is that.

I have seen multiple people, last week, charge into the merc ship, with the merc injured and well contained, instead of waiting for a military exosuit, which was almost built, to arrive, getting shot repeatedly, charged back and esworded multiple times, screamed to pull back and wait, and neverthless pushing forward, at times literally alone, forcing me and others to move forward and be shot at, to keep them in view and avoid them being taken and killed, and this is just one single example of the past week.

 

Lastly, a line of succession ensures that no deadlock is possible, if you have 4 people on 2 opposing views on one matter, with 2 voting X and 2 voting Y as acting captain, that situation isn't resolvable to my knowledge, this also avoids such occurrence, that I never seen, but are theoretically possible to my knowledge.

[DeadLantern]

As Carver brought up, if the XO is indeed changed to being second in command or even second in line, it will almost necessitate the species restrictions being expanded for the XO. It would be far too easy for a Tajara, Unathi, IPC(!), or a Diona(!!!) to essentially run the ship and be a pseudo-captain.

For that reason, I negate changing the succession or commanding system as my only option for playing a xeno/machine in command without learning lengthy mechanics is solely the XO (OM is hardly a command position).

[Bear]

I diagree with elevating the XO, im afraid. I would have rather gone with your original suggestion to rename the XO. With the way our server's political dynamics are based on species and origin, this would be a recipe for disaster.

Command arguments/disagreements are not infrequent, and giving one authority over the other disrupts the current problem solving mechanics already in place.

Command, excluding the captain, should remain on equal footing.

[SilverSZ]

Whilst in principal I think that elevating the XO to a more official second in command could be interesting and a positive dynamic for the ship I have to disagree with it for the same reasons Deadlantern raised.

This change would mean that XO is something above the other heads, similar to how captain is now, and would essentially be Captain on any round without a captain. I couldn't see this working at all with how we allow races such as IPC, Diona, Tajara etc to be XO as they would never reasonably be given such power by the SCC. The reason these species get to be heads is because there will be a Human/Skrell captain above them or they will only be one part of the command council.

I suppose if it ended up being that XO could be the second in command without any species losing access I would be in favour but I don't really see that being how it would go.

[Dreamix]

I would be very curious to see how 2IC XO could go. I think it would be worth to at least try it for a month, two, or three.

Even if just so we can say afterwards either "oh, it's actually a bad idea" or "actually it's nice and it should stay".

Or even "actually it's nice, but does not really fit our atmosphere"

 

How should it work?
It should be 2IC plain and simple. Not second-in-succession, but actually second-in-command. That means Captain-level authority if the Captain is dead or absent. If there is a Captain, 2IC should not be making Captain-level decisions unless they align with the actual Captain's wishes.

What should be 2IC XO's normal duties?
Outside of emergencies, XO's duties should be the same as currently. XO should be managing helm matters, helping other heads with whatever they might need, handling access and accounts, etc.

How would it change during emergencies?
XO would be above other heads, with Captain-level authority. So if the Captain dies or is absent, XO would be able to give orders to other heads. The difference from current state, is that currently an acting Captain might need to be elected, which may sometimes take a short while to figure out who should take it, or potentially even might not happen at all if heads disagree (but I've not seen that happen, personally).

What to do about species restrictions?
Well, that's a tough one potentially. I think they should not change for XO. During normal operation, 2IC XO would not be above the Captain, so it's all good there. During emergencies, any head can take acting captainship, so clearly SCC is okay with non-human non-skrell heads to be taking command - just not permanently and in standard operation. There could be soft rules/guidelines that XOs must be somewhat loyal to SCC, and cannot be some random low-paid low-skill alien hired from mendell city slums, or something like that.

Concerns about overstepping and etc?
Same as the Captain, XOs should not be micro-managing departments, should not be going over heads to order their staff, and should not be butting into departments unless there is an actual reason to. Both during emergencies, and during standard operation. I think the concerns about XOs stepping over other heads are overblown - they'd have to follow same rules as the Captain.

[La Villa Strangiato]

Also, if you do want to rename XO, make them Head of Personnel again, or even First Officer (which is what they're generally called on airlines).

[CampinKiller]

If we renamed them I’d say go with bridge officer.

As much as y’all are saying “well they have a whitelist” or that they won’t have actual authority unless the Captain is dead or they agree with the Captain, those don’t assuage my concerns at all. There are already, currently, XOs who will butt into the security channel with backseating. Imagine how that would be if they were officially ranked above the HoS? 

Additionally, let’s imagine for a moment this does come to pass. The OM says he is telling his miners to go to X. The XO pops in and says no, X is not acceptable, you will go to Y. Since the XO doesn’t have the authority unless the Captain agrees, now there is either an argument until the Captain cuts in (if there even is a Captain, then it will just be an argument) or the Captain is going to be disturbed 50 times a round to determine if this is “what he wants” or not

[Sheeplets]

If we did this at all I'd like see the XO only elevated if there's a captain present, so they can act sort of like his little liaison and pass orders down the chain and make small judgement calls for the him, so the captain isn't overburdened. Otherwise, if there's no captain we'd stay with the current tribunal system so the XO can't become the defacto mini-captain and boss around the rest of the heads of staff.

[Peppermint]

I would like to see this I think. Have changed my mind a little. If people act badly we can press the WL strip button. I think it'd be nice to at least test it out.

It feels a lot of the people not wanting certain things is due to assuming people will act poorly. Which is why we have a WL at all - all of these issues could happen from the Captain doing the exact same thing.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Peppermint

[Hawk]

I think a lot of situations are really dependant as well, an antagonist, like a Ling could be either a CMO, a HOS or a RD's main concern, if at any time an XO just gets to overstep any of these command members it'd breed resentment or at least, I personally think it would especially with relaxed command roles like RD who don't often get heavily involved in events such at this, plus, pre-existing XO's would have to be near entirely rebuilt to justify why they're allowed such power over such a wide-ranging breadth of issues and as previously mentioned, race restrictions would likely have to be put in place which would then remove pre-existing characters this is especially relevant considering the current sector the Horizon is in and the fact that any Tajaran could be an XO, who would then have executive power over weaponry, mining operations etc is an powder keg I cannot see the SCC allowing ICly.

[CatsinHD]

The way I see it, if the captain wants a right-hand-person then they can choose someone already. Nothing stops them, afaik, in regulations. If they want to designate a Head of Staff to take over if they die or are incapacitated, they can do that. I don't see the use in making it official if not every captain wants to have the XO as next in line or their right-hand-person. If a captain isn't around, I don't want the XO to become mini-captain.

If people want to trial it on the server then sure. I think there would need to be more discussions on what the exact details are. I'm skeptical, but who knows. Maybe it's unfounded and testing it out will change my mind.