Let's end this meme of forced reliance on engineers

[BurgerBB]

It's honestly a joke that every single round the engineers have to do the following:

- Break into atmos to steal the phoron. Painstakingly drag the two phoron canisters to the supermatter. Again.

- Setup the supermatter. Again.

- Painstaking drag 4 large shielding units to the surface. Again.

- Design an over complicated tumor in the hallway so the shields have somewhere to be. Again.

- Wire up the shields. Again.

- AFK in the engineering lobby and wait for something to happen. Again.

It's so fucking boring. No one plays it, and since no one plays it, everyone has to suffer because there is no one to setup the power. At least with other roles you can have alternatives, but with no engineers the station comes to a screeching halt. I propose fixing the issue of having to rely on engineering for power and engineers having to torture themselves by performing the same tasks over and over again.

The fact that we don't have power at round start is bad gameplay. The fact that every round engineering has to setup shields in order to prevent carp from fucking up everything is bad gameplay. This issue regarding engineering is amplified given how Aurorastation is suffering from lowpop and a very questionable AI introduction that makes hostiles mobs smash glass passively. Carp are no longer something you can pull the fire alarm down and ignore. They will fuck your shit up. I've been in plenty of rounds where the shuttle had to be called because of the lack of power, or engineering ERT had to be called because of it. It's just so lame.

So I propose the following:

- The surface has a dedicated shields room that can be setup easily. All shield equipment is located already there. No more moving it.

- The supermatter is already setup with the desired phoron count. All it takes is 20 blasts with the emitter and you've got a shield. An engineer or the AI can setup the supermatter.

- Add a shitload of engineering related events that only occur if engineering is present. Random machines overheating and catching fire. Random machines breaking down and needing repairs/replacements. Actual Ion storm events that EMP random machines that engineering can fix. Stray meteors/sand that hit the station randomly. Mice chewing wires.

- Possibly making it so that one non-vital area randomly starts out with renovations in progress. For example, the bar could start without wood tiles or furniture. The cargo break room could be empty. The library missing some bookshelves. Head's of Staff's offices needing work.

[DronzTheWolf]

As an engineer main, yes please. I love fixing shit and the only time we do something is roundstart setup and blobs/plants.

Antags rarely do very destructive things, and otherwise we might get called out for a camera shutting off on it's own.

[Evandorf]

I like some of these suggestions, but as an engine tech I wouldn't like having most of my job done for me.

[DronzTheWolf]

- The supermatter is already setup with the desired phoron count. All it takes is 20 blasts with the emitter and you've got a shield. An engineer or the AI can setup the supermatter.

 

I somehow missed this, but I really don't like it.

A lot of engineers don't use purely phoron engine set-ups, so maybe just make it so enough phoron spawns in the storage room/a storage room so they don't have to break in to get it, so experimental engineers can still do their thing?

[furrycactus]

I'm really not a fan of the engine already starting out filled with phoron and ready to go, because that'll gun down the ability to do any custom setups without doing a very, very lengthy draining process, which becomes obsolete if the engine starts out ready to fire anyway. Aside from that though, I love everything else suggested.

Carrying shields up EVERY round is absolute cancer, and I'd love a dedicated shields room being up already. There's never much to do, renovations wise, unless the team wants to do a lot of work that's always interrupted by antags and is deleted at the end of the round, so nonvital areas lacking some things can be a great alternative and will give engineers something to actually do.

[kyres1]

100% agreed. I was going to originally post something along the lines of this regarding round-start setup in its entirety being removed (like R&D's starting levels, the starting mining grind, etc) but this definitely covers what I find wrong with engineering in its current state. The worthwhile part of customizing the engine from the ground up is definitely not worth the metric shit ton of repetition engineers need to do to start it up every single round. No, it's not hard. No, it doesn't take too long. But it's still 10-20 and even 30 minutes of your time spent doing the same thing every single time you play.

[Scheveningen]

I'm indifferent about this. On one hand I actually want things to do when I play engiborg but I can understand the struggle with no engineers, though.

[Pratepresidenten]

I can understand the boring, shitty setup of the shields, but.. How is engineering different from any other department? Its a job that needs doing, and without staff, it doesnt get done, just like any other department.

It seems to me like you just want a play-ready department to spawn on at roundstart, because doing the engine setup and various tasks is painstaking and boring.

Isnt R&D the same? You do literally the same thing over and over for levels.

What about mining? You mine for research to get your KA and other shit.

Why not just give all the departments full roundstart-ready equipment? R&D can print lawgivers on the spot, mining starts with fully kitted rigsuits and maxed KAs, the kitchen, bar and chemistry for both medical and science comes maxed out with 3 of every possible thing creatable.

What makes engineering more of a hassle than any of the other departments?

[BurgerBB]

Other departments having garbage gameplay doesn't justify engineering having garbage gameplay. This is whataboutism and not an argument.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You're bringing a lot of hostile energy to this suggestion.

I'm not laying a trap for you here:

What do you see engineers doing for 2 hours on extended? Do you want to see more emergant construction projects from them?

You may be creating a problem that killed the atmospheric department. The atmospheric department spawned on oldmap incomplete and inefficient, and atmospheric technicians were implicitly encouraged to redo it every shift start. With this newmap atmospherics starts fully optimized, so there is nothing to do as an atmospheric technician, and that is why the atmos tech population plummeted since our current map iteration.

How will you entertain engineers with things to do if they spawn in the same situation?

[BurgerBB]

As listed, I want to create things that engineers can do, such as building on the station or fixing repairs. The building on the station part is optional, while fixing repairs should take up the same amount of time as setting up the shields or engine. Only difference is that its actually time spent that's entertaining and could further the round especially as an antag.

[kyres1]

You may be creating a problem that killed the atmospheric department. The atmospheric department spawned on oldmap incomplete and inefficient, and atmospheric technicians were implicitly encouraged to redo it every shift start. With this newmap atmospherics starts fully optimized, so there is nothing to do as an atmospheric technician, and that is why the atmos tech population plummeted since our current map iteration.

 

I don't think atmospheric technician was ever a super popular role, was it? It's effectively an engineer who isn't untrained but isn't forced to set up the engine.

[Coalf]

The title is a bit misleading, it's more of a "rework reliance on engineers" rather than "end reliance on engineers".

Now a good suggestion would be for the game to register how many engineers have readied up and if the game starts without an engineer, to spawn an already setup engine.

[Bauser]

1)

Add a shitload of engineering related events that only occur if engineering is present. Random machines overheating and catching fire. Random machines breaking down and needing repairs/replacements. Actual Ion storm events that EMP random machines that engineering can fix. Stray meteors/sand that hit the station randomly. Mice chewing wires.

Can you imagine how much people will start to hate engineers if suddenly their own shit only breaks randomly when an engineer is playing

2)

It's so fucking boring. No one plays it

False statement

3)

The fact that we don't have power at round start is bad gameplay. The fact that every round engineering has to setup shields in order to prevent carp from fucking up everything is bad gameplay.

So you're trying to get rid of the 'minigame' that engineers already have to play every round, and replace it with a different minigame for engineers to play every round - from setting up the engine and shields, to fixing all the random shit that breaks from your 'engineering events'.

4) Stop calling things you don't like "memes"

5) The events that occur on station shouldn't depend on what jobs are present. It was bad enough when you suggested the presence of a chef should determine the station clock, and that had minimal impact. Deciding whether or not the station breaks just based on whether there is THEORETICALLY a player to fix it (keep in mind: engineers can also be antagonists, or KILLED by antagonists, or even (GASP) ROLEPLAY, and so have other shit going on than trying to stop other people's games from falling apart from RNG) is nonsensical.

6) Don't make mice chewing wires an actual event because then mouse players will want the ability to chew wires, and fuck giving them any more ways to impede the round

7) You're right that engineering shouldn't have to break into atmos to make their optimal engine setup every round, and some random engineering events would be perfectly suitable additions to the events roll (so it's not always SPIDERS EATING ME and VENDING MACHINES SHOOTING ME, etc)

8) Instead of reducing the responsibility of engineers because of lowpop (since this would obviously be ridiculous if we tried it on other jobs: "Let's make players self-healing when there are no doctors," "Let's make antags self-arresting when there's no security," "Let's put vending machines all over the station when there's no chef,"), why don't we do something to attract more players to the server? Like... actually advertise somewhere?

EDIT: SIDE NOTE

Maybe only people who actually play engineering should get to say if they want their job to be gutted

[Doxxmedearly]

The spirit of the suggestion and many parts of the suggestion are very good, even though I'm 100% over using the word "meme."

The main things needed to reduce the tedium, IMO as an engineering player, are:

1) Add the shield room to the surface, as suggested.

2) Remove the need to break in to atmos to get a reliable engine setup for those of us who aren't specialists.

3) Add SOME more random events that aren't "blob," "Powergrid error" (Which should be removed or reworked anyway given the incredible lag it generates) and "vendors shooting me halp."

As far as dependence on engineering, I agree it's a big problem without engineers there. It's not like other departments; the whole round basically hinges on it, unlike mining, R&D, medical, etc. I think taking small steps to reduce the roundstart tedium will be a good starting point; all departments have some, of course, but engineering's depends on breaking in to departments (usually) and just dragging things forever.

Another thought may be to have a solar unit already wired, to provide a little bit of additional starting energy. I don't know if that's feasible or even impactful.

 

Now a good suggestion would be for the game to register how many engineers have readied up and if the game starts without an engineer, to spawn an already setup engine.

This would be interesting, if possible. Sounds like a tough thing to implement, but I'm code-ignorant.

[Evandorf]

Honestly, a QOL upgrade for me that would speed up engine setup without taking away any agency I have in how it's setup would be to simply replace the two nitrogen canisters in storage with phoron canisters. This would mean you have four nitrogen canisters already in the engine room and three phoron canisters in storage for your average phoron setup. No need to break into atmos.

[furrycactus]

Proper education of the phoron/nitrogen engine could always be very useful. Most people know not to follow the book on the table because it's just incorrect. Perhaps updating the book to teach the more working version - being 1 phoron hot, 2 nitrogen cold, 11 shots - can certainly help a lot, even if that engine takes a little while to heat up properly. But even with adding that information, people are stubborn and will just go for their phoron setup that's much easier and makes power quicker. Moving more phoron into hard storage can be helpful for that. I used to be against the idea of that, thinking it removed work from the atmos tech, but really, no. It's just much better, since it doesn't force people to hack in to get the phoron, which people always do. Hopefully the more useful solars that are coming soon might attract more engineers, as well.

I'm very, very much for having a shields room already on the surface though. People rarely volunteer to do them willingly, because of all the dragging around that's necessary, and as CE I usually have to specifically make someone to do them or do them myself. Some engineers don't even bother to set them up, or don't know how to, or know where they're meant to be dragged to, and then we end up with breached hulls, broken windows, and carp inside the surface. It's a lot of tedium that's all but necessary, and I'm pretty sure said grind is what drives away a lot of people from playing engineering repetitively.

[Arrow768]

Afaik a few changes for the atmos tech / engine tech are already in progress.

[Evandorf]

If they add a permanent shield room it needs to be placed on the main line and not the civilian surface subgrid.

[BurgerBB]

Shield room will get its own substation just because of how much power it consumes and added potential for vandalism/antagonism.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You may be creating a problem that killed the atmospheric department. The atmospheric department spawned on oldmap incomplete and inefficient, and atmospheric technicians were implicitly encouraged to redo it every shift start. With this newmap atmospherics starts fully optimized, so there is nothing to do as an atmospheric technician, and that is why the atmos tech population plummeted since our current map iteration.

 

I don't think atmospheric technician was ever a super popular role, was it? It's effectively an engineer who isn't untrained but isn't forced to set up the engine.

 

On the old map we had semi-reliable atmospheric technicians and would see 1 or even 2 every other round, including myself. The job has quite literally died for anyone except new players that join it and quickly realize that is absolutely nothing to do.

[SatinsPristOTD]

The only real cancerous thing I have with Engineering is dragging those shields up. Setting the engine doesn't bother me (you can RP it as the Stupidmatter needing a "cooldown" between shifts or something similar). And when I play rounds without Engineers, it's not usually an issue since borgs can set the engine.

Having more events would be nice for Engineers. Not just "Well, go take that emitter down to the giant glowing green goo, then fix that radically screwed tunnel nightmare once it's gone."

but yeah, shield room would be 10/10. You don't even have to have them set UP. just put the damn things in an Engineering closet NEAR WHERE WE ALREADY PUT THEM. Turn secondary tool storage into it. Put all of secondary's crap in PRIMARY anyways. Ninety percent of Engineering start-up is kick dragging shields to the elevator and wrestling with airlocks. It's not even RP promoting. It's not even fun. It's the dullest thing besides watching paint dry.

[Evandorf]

TBH, if the blob squares were stronger and less likely to be memed destroyed by the emitter, and if the blob did much less damage to walls I think it would be a more entertaining and persistent threat that just a giant green glob that flattens whole sections of the station.

It would be more like a thick and resiliant slime, mostly contained by walls that slowly oozes down the passages.

[Trazz666]

Honestly the only thing that needs a change is putting a shield room on the surface. Setting up the engine isn't a problem, opening doors is maybe 10 seconds out of your day if you don't already know the wires. Though I would enjoy having 3 photon canisters in engi storage.

[geeves]

I would LOVE if three phoron tanks spawned in the engine room already. A shield room of the surface would be great too, as long as the parts spawn there. My biggest gripe with the round-start set-up is the hauling and the installation.