Remove technomancer from the secret rotation

[Lmwevil]

5 hours ago, Caelphon said:

Again, I will literally fight people with my bare hands. Europeans/Australians are stuck with the same consistent gamemodes, don't make it already smaller. Unless you play during these times, I do not believe you'd understand. 

yep literally this, i'd rather something replace it straight up than it just being gone. Plus I have some really funny memories of wiz

[limette]

On 19/02/2021 at 14:57, Garnascus said:

Only way i will ever support this is if we have a new mode to replace it, something like technomancer or maybe something we create for ourselves. Like a "devil" game mode. As far as i am aware anyone is free to code this. 

So, who would I speak to about seeing whether a technomancer port or something like that would actually be merged versus being a potential massive waste of time and money? I'm not familiar with the developer structure of Aurora but I'd be very interested in seeing that happen.

[Carver]

14 minutes ago, limette said:

So, who would I speak to about seeing whether a technomancer port or something like that would actually be merged versus being a potential massive waste of time and money? I'm not familiar with the developer structure of Aurora but I'd be very interested in seeing that happen.

Alberyk, MattAtlas, Skull.

[Garnascus]

Yep, carver is pretty much correct. Would talk to one of them before you spend any time coding something. 

[Cnaym]

Seeing a unathi wordlessly run around fireballing people and deploying smoke whenever an officer even coughs nearby is the lowest form of antaging we have. Seeing all of command cryo and security follow makes it even worse.

Spoiler

The middle part here was pretty lenghty and detailed about why this is a staff issue imho and the playerbase simply giving up hoping on any improvement from either a code perspective or how these types of antags are handled by the modmins but I decided to keep my forum access.

Let the shitters win another one, cut more content for the invested part of the playerbase. It's going to happen and nobody is going to profit from it. Bandaid is not going to solve a fundamentally wrong thing like antags being constantly allowed to ignore rules. This topic was however not created to fix anything but instead to remove something.

[Kintsugi]

4 hours ago, Cnaym said:

This topic was however not created to fix anything but instead to remove something.

Correct. This topic exists to remove a gamemode that brings absolutely nothing to the table of our HRP server.

[Aphelion]

Is this thread a joke? How've we talked about this for two months and not come to a conclusion?

RP in wizard rounds is actually alright, most of the time. If you asked me the main problem with wizard is that it's such a double edged sword based on which school of magic the wizard is. Either they're nearly immortal, and can teleport, shoot fire from their fingers, or they're rather helpless, and can only summon seeds and shit. 

The vast majority of wizard players have the capacity to absolutely wreck shit, but half the spells are basically powergaming, and the other half are incredibly mundane.

Personally I think this is the main dilemma of wizard rounds, in that the wizard can either go very balls-to-the-walls deep in violence and powers, and totally screw the station, or they can be a peaceful guy who is just kinda there for an apprentice or whatever. This sort of disparity between either getting fucked or having nothing to do makes sec mains quit, and the round as a result becomes a drag. But it really doesn't need to be.

We could probably fix this disparity by making the particularly lethal spells and such unlockable by going to 'magical hotspots' on the station, where mana flows or whatever. At least by doing that people would have the promise of the round becoming more violent and interesting while actually giving the wizard a mechanical goal instead of just being there to have godlike-powers, that are only really kept in check based on the promise of OOC action if the wizard does anything that isn't fair.

Addendum:
Wizard right now is basically like giving some hobo a shotgun, a million dollars, and telekinetic powers, then telling him that if he takes things too far, god will remove him from space and time. Players can do TOO MUCH with the role, but also live in constant fear of doing too much.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Aphelion
added addendum.

[Kintsugi]

3 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

Is this thread a joke? How've we talked about this for two months and not come to a conclusion?

This thread is almost a year old. The reason for the lack of action is because this is something that the staff team ultimately controls. A player cannot untick a gamemode and remove it from the rotation, as the config file is manipulated server-side, not controlled by the code.

[Aphelion]

10 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

This thread is almost a year old. The reason for the lack of action is because this is something that the staff team ultimately controls. A player cannot untick a gamemode and remove it from the rotation, as the config file is manipulated server-side, not controlled by the code.

you'd think the staff would approve or deny something after a whole year, is all I meant by this. 

[Sparky_hotdog]

Spoiler

 

When I first started playing SS13 on other servers, Wizard was a mode I hated for the chaos and unexplainable power that those antags had. When I came to Aurora, I was pleasantly surprised to find that Wizards would engage in some form of RP, and whether the crew 'won' or 'lost' the gimmicks were generally enjoyable. However recently, I have begun to agree more and more with the general idea behind this thread.

Often a defence (and quite a right one at that) used for antags perceived as OP is that is is 'fun to loose too'. And I agree there; That's why despite the death and destruction (and often times feelings of futility) caused by some of the more memorable events on the server are still remembered as fun, despite the fact that the crew would generally not see themselves as being the 'victors'. However, it is not fun to loose (or win come to thing of it) the same way. Over and over again. This is what Wizard seems to have turned into: Either they go full on guns blazing and decimate the crew with what is almost always a reused gimmick with a slight twist at best, or they go peaceful, and provide two hours of again, repetitive RP.

What I think is the cause of this I believe was loosely touched on above, but I'll reiterate it here - Wizard abilities are too polar in their strength; They either make the wizard uber-powerful, or are so niche and/or weak that next to nobody uses them. The over-the-top powers are, as far as I can tell, an attempt to compensate for high-pop, during which a single wizard can hypothetically be the only antag that entire round. This is why I often find visitor rounds more enjoyable, despite them having both of my perhaps least favourite antagonists. With more people to carry the weight of being the antagonists, it frees the wizard (and the ninjas, but this thread isn't about them) up to take some of the less used abilities. To actually develop some RP that isn't just the usual peace-wiz magic show or wandering druid stuff we see at other times.

So I dislike Wizard? Yes. Would I remove it? No. As has been said above, Wizard is often one of the only antagonists, if not the only, that can break the middle of the day (for my time zone at least) sextended spree. It's a low-pop requirement, one antagonist gamemode, so it is less likely to be dodged as something like Cult or even Traitor at times. What would I do instead? Firstly, nerf and buff Wizards. Make those deathchat-rage enducing abilities weaker, but also make the weaker ones that are essentially only used in peace-wiz more powerful, to try and equalise the power of their abilities. Secondly, the number of antagonists dynamic with population, so low-pop can still have their one wizard, but high-pop aren't left with a lone (now weaker) wiz either. That or port/make a variation on technomancer (which I think fits the setting more. Is that just me? You could actually fit into the lore in a way that makes sense if you wanted to).

 

TL;DR: For the sake of Low-pop, don't remove it. Either rework it to be more dynamic with pop-size, or get a new *cough* technomancer *cough* gamemode to fill it's place.

[sonicgotnuked]

Just have wizard show up when you have like 5-10 people readying up. Let me pain two scenarios.

 

Secret Wizard at 2PM, lone antag, with 25 people readied up in which there is a full security department. Suddenly you have the entire department surrounding them if they dare breath an centimeter away from regulations. Suddenly tazed to the floor or shot horizontal an hour into the round.

 

Secret Wizard at 2AM with one officer who can't just summon the entire force of security. Does some magic shit and someone accidently gets hurt. You're not going to have the entire department surrounding you in three seconds.

[Butterrobber202]

12 hours ago, sonicgotnuked said:

Just have wizard show up when you have like 5-10 people readying up. Let me pain two scenarios.

 

Secret Wizard at 2PM, lone antag, with 25 people readied up in which there is a full security department. Suddenly you have the entire department surrounding them if they dare breath an centimeter away from regulations. Suddenly tazed to the floor or shot horizontal an hour into the round.

 

Secret Wizard at 2AM with one officer who can't just summon the entire force of security. Does some magic shit and someone accidently gets hurt. You're not going to have the entire department surrounding you in three seconds.

Correct. Loner is a new gamemode that has a population limit. It won't be in rotation if we've got more than like 10 readies or something. Making Wizard (and Visitors) have a upper limit is the way to go.

[Kintsugi]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/11595

The final victory approaches

[Desven]

On 07/04/2021 at 00:31, DanseMacabre said:

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/11595

The final victory approaches

The only thing I'm worried about is if the technomancer will be able to have a simple mob sidekick. I've never been one, but honestly the talking carp/cat/crab is my favorite thing about wizard.

[MattAtlas]

1 hour ago, Desven said:

The only thing I'm worried about is if the technomancer will be able to have a simple mob sidekick. I've never been one, but honestly the talking carp/cat/crab is my favorite thing about wizard.

They will get a synthetic golem simple mob of sorts. Or at least, I'm pretty sure they will, unless the code there relies on some weird magical Polaris contraption that I can't port in that PR, which is not the case last time I checked.

[Kintsugi]

I am reviving this thread. Technomancer also sucks. It's time to move on. Remove Technomancer from the secret rotation and replace it with meteor, now that we're switching to the NBT. This setup will work better and will actually be fun.

[Caelphon]

1 hour ago, DanseMacabre said:

I am reviving this thread. Technomancer also sucks. It's time to move on. Remove Technomancer from the secret rotation and replace it with meteor, now that we're switching to the NBT. This setup will work better and will actually be fun.

I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not, but I will approach the subject as being serious.

We may as well have kept Wizard if this is the route that people wish to go. I see no reason to remove technomancer, and again it has more of an impact on low pop than it does high pop. For the sake of people who aren’t in an American time zone, do not remove this. If you do at least replace it with something more interesting than meteors - which literally only gives engineering an objective with everyone else dying within a few moments as rocks pierce through the hull.

[Boggle08]

Killing this game mode off now would be too premature for the reasons Caelphon outlined

It's not exactly a stellar game mode in my view, but I'll take the occasional listless technomancer round over an excess of uninterrupted iterations of extended secret. We need new game modes, scenarios, and missions for the new ship before this gamemode can be vestigial enough to seriously consider removal or reassessment.

[MattAtlas]

Maybe cap the spawn pop at like 15? One technomancer isn't enough for a highpop round anyway.

[Montyfatcat]

Sorry but meteor seems like it would be even more of a nightmare than technomancer. Sure it can get uncreative at times, but there's a few memorable rounds that are really good. The same can't be said for "oh fuck another wall just blew up and vented half the ship again" mode.

[Sparky_hotdog]

Yeah, I agree with Matt here. For low pop (Which is predominantly when I play) Technomancer is basically one of the only antags we see, but I think Visitors provides Technomancer with meat for high pop that solo can't.

As for meteor, that sounds insane. Like, I don't actually know what it is, but I can guess from the name, and given that Technomancer is a mode I see as low pop, having it replaced with a mode that relies on engineers seems like it's going to ruin a lot more rounds than it makes interesting.

[Butterrobber202]

4 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

Maybe cap the spawn pop at like 15? One technomancer isn't enough for a highpop round anyway.

already a thing. Solo Technomancer can not fire when there are more than 15 players readied.

[MattAtlas]

6 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

already a thing. Solo Technomancer can not fire when there are more than 15 players readied.

Then I'd just remove techno mixed modes.