Kintsugi Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 I disagree as far as mechanical restrictions are concerned. Mindset is the issue - a shitty detective will still be shitty if you take his gun away and give him a taser. In fact, giving him a taser seems like a recipe for validhunting.
GreenBoi Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 I don't see what the issue is. What's so bad about just getting a stun revolver or something taser-like? If you already don't validhunt as Detective- you're probably not going to try and kill a person anyways, and it's not like a taser can't buy you as much self-defense by slowing down your opponent. Yes, it's not as effective as shooting a guy and causing him to break a bone- which forces them to back off or eventually be formally arrested and incarcerated, but there's also the fact that a Detective, hypothetically, should not be in a lot of trouble to begin with combat-wise. You aren't high-priority for take-out by assassins or anything and forensic details can be messed with without doing something as super-suspicious as literal murder. When I was antagging in 2018, I was more afraid of the Detective than Officers- they were on par with Wardens and the HoS because I was afraid they'd blast me to total oblivion if we went in combat. I still fucking feel that way whenever I antag once a month and that's so stupid. Stun Revolvers are fine.
Skull132 Posted April 9, 2020 Posted April 9, 2020 If the issue is detectives acting like officers, or in general, being dumb with their weapons. Then consider removing the weapon entirely. Giving them a stun weapon lowers to penalty of using it even further, thus likely making them MORE inclined to use it.
geeves Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 With the tweaks in my PR, taser-like weapons do jack shit against anyone with basic armour, like the heavy vest traitors can get, or something like engineering voidsuits. Meaning that they won't absolutely wreck antags with their lethal bullets anymore.
Skull132 Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 2 hours ago, geeves said: With the tweaks in my PR, taser-like weapons do jack shit against anyone with basic armour, like the heavy vest traitors can get, or something like engineering voidsuits. Meaning that they won't absolutely wreck antags with their lethal bullets anymore. This is an interesting concept and I would enjoy to see this more. Having more readily available means to combat the effectiveness of stuns sounds like a good idea.
DronzTheWolf Posted April 10, 2020 Posted April 10, 2020 Tazers IRL can be stopped by a simple puff jacket or a leather belt, so Geeves' update making tazers worse against armor is welcomed. I can understand not making them as shit as real tazers because future and balance.
ReadThisNamePlz Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 On 08/04/2020 at 13:57, Marlon Phoenix said: Several command members have a lethal weapon on spawn. Hop, captain, HoS, and i believe the RD. RD does not.
N8-Toe Posted April 16, 2020 Posted April 16, 2020 I think the best solution is just give them rubbers, and call it a day. having a gun for self defense fits the detective as they are often off interviewing, and tracking down people to talk to. So a weapon for self defense fits both from an IC and OOC perspective.
Skull132 Posted April 16, 2020 Posted April 16, 2020 Rubbers will solve nothing, lmao. This is one of those debates that resurfaces every now and then, with it sometimes going through. And then we watch the pendulum swing the other way again. Flash ammunition is a reasonable "solution", short of just removing the gun from them. With the only sticking point being whether or not we want to give them a unique caliber, to prevent a very rapid swap to lethals which would permit the detective to front-line.
Scheveningen Posted April 16, 2020 Posted April 16, 2020 As someone who was around when the detective had .45 rubbers, it was bad. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If, statistically, detectives cannot be trusted to use any munitions responsibly, then they probably merit removal.
Carver Posted April 19, 2020 Posted April 19, 2020 Flash is useless. Rubbers are just ranged punches. The point of it is to make him an unappealing murder target, if it's being abused I'd say it's a player issue. Giving him a taser is also basically just asking to make the Detective trivially easy to kill.
GreenBoi Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 On 19/04/2020 at 10:43, Carver said: Flash is useless. Rubbers are just ranged punches. The point of it is to make him an unappealing murder target, if it's being abused I'd say it's a player issue. Giving him a taser is also basically just asking to make the Detective trivially easy to kill. What's so bad about letting the role be easy to kill? The main difficulty of murdering someone is the fact that they'll be dark from radio- which is super suspicious when it's someone in Security, and they're still on-manifest. The challenge of this murder is not in the actual process, but in the repercussions as people know the detective is mysteriously gone and are going to be more cautious. If they had a revolver, all that would mean is that antags would try to KO them/make their weapon inaccessible to avoid the threat altogether.
Carver Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 2 hours ago, GreenBoi said: What's so bad about letting the role be easy to kill? The main difficulty of murdering someone is the fact that they'll be dark from radio- which is super suspicious when it's someone in Security, and they're still on-manifest. The challenge of this murder is not in the actual process, but in the repercussions as people know the detective is mysteriously gone and are going to be more cautious. If they had a revolver, all that would mean is that antags would try to KO them/make their weapon inaccessible to avoid the threat altogether. You're murdering the only person capable of reliably figuring out who a murderer is. The Detective is the biggest threat to anyone attempting to be stealthy; why ruin the fun for him by killing him instead of challenging his investigative prowess? If there's a risk involved of dying, then you're dissuaded from murdering someone. The radio thing isn't a risk, most people either won't notice or they will and will never figure out what happened to him. The station's biggest non-Command target shouldn't be an easy kill.
Skull132 Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 The illusion of threat works both ways. If the detective is given an effective weapon, he is more encouraged to use it. This is why this debate just does not fucking die, by the way. So by giving him a more useless weapon, we are forcing him to not get entangled in stupid situations more.
Pratepresidenten Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Carver said: You're murdering the only person capable of reliably figuring out who a murderer is. The Detective is the biggest threat to anyone attempting to be stealthy; why ruin the fun for him by killing him instead of challenging his investigative prowess? How is a guy asking questions more of a threat than the guy with the hard, forensics evidence? Literally anyone can ask questions and do what the detective does without a gun. I'd rather blow up the forensics lab and kill the CSI than shooting a nosy reporter with a gun. No evidence, no crime.
BearSchwanz Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 To be honest even when i first joined, as quite a shitter, I thought it was ridiculous the detective had lethal rounds even as someone coming from lrp servers. +1
geeves Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 this was merged 3 days ago https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8634
MattAtlas Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Voting for dismissal due to the fact that the sidearm does not have lethals anymore.
Arrow768 Posted April 21, 2020 Posted April 21, 2020 Moving this to the archive as the OP is satisfied with the changes currently implemented (flash ammo + incompatible caliber)
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