Merge CSI and Detective.

[Snakebittenn]

Here we go.
I'm proposing we merge CSI and Detective into a single role. This role would be titled 'Investigator', with no alt titles (because Matt said so.) It would have two slots, and one big office. The responsibilities of the Investigators extend to do what both the CSI and the Detective used to do. Find the evidence, interrogate people. The goal in mind is that they split their work between them as partners, so that nobody is overwhelmed.

Reasoning:
For a long time I've felt like Detective was half of a role. CSI would be half of a role, but nobody really roleplays as being unable to also do the Detective's work if it's called for. The Detective is unable to do the CSI's work, due to lacking the access. They can /only/ interrogate people. I feel like this is what leads to so much validhunting. They're simply starved for something to do. CSI work is pretty high-intensity if you're going through the full process with paperwork and whatnot, so it can keep one busy. Often, too busy for just one person. I feel like putting them back together would be a good thing. Also just maybe we can finally kill off noir as an aesthetic, and unclutter the top level of the brig.

[Happy_Fox]

Investigators are cool. Having two of them is also cool. I like this proposal.

[DronzTheWolf]

So.. Re-merge to old detective, but with two slots. 
Absolute +1

[Flpfs]

I agree, right now the Detective role appears to be useless.

+1

[Waff-AI]

I've always been for the roles to be merged into one. The problem isn't that they both feel like half-jobs, although they do; The problem is that they both feel like full jobs that then have to depend on the other to do some very important work, or, mechanically, vital work, in the case of the CSI, being as having physical evidence is about 90% of any given case that you didn't watch happen. 

big plus one please let me do x-files memes icly 

[niennab]

I like the changes but I am concerned by it's implementation. I can only imagine investigator B having every job or every opportunity taken from them by investigator A. And I don't believe 'ahelp it' is a valid response where we could be possibly tweaking its implementation so a player doesn't wordlessly run off with the kit and throw the other investigator under the bus. Having two CSI kits in the office might help.

Will there be two guns? One?

[Carver]

If we're just undoing the split, I'd like to see the title variety back. I never played Detective to fiddle around with the annoying nature of forensics and organizing 30 different pieces of evidence (and even worse, people assuming my Detective could perform autopsies), and I wouldn't like to be expected to do so either.

[Snakebittenn]

29 minutes ago, niennab said:

I like the changes but I am concerned by it's implementation. I can only imagine investigator B having every job or every opportunity taken from them by investigator A. And I don't believe 'ahelp it' is a valid response where we could be possibly tweaking its implementation so a player doesn't wordlessly run off with the kit and throw the other investigator under the bus. Having two CSI kits in the office might help.

Will there be two guns? One?

There will be two CSI kits, and preferably two guns. Especially if the blaster project gets revived. The rest, well, there's no easy answer and you're right that there will be a level of abuse.







Here's a WIP (pending feedback) remap of a dual office, lovingly crafted by @Susan

[Lmwevil]

Working together both on the same case with the same skillset sounds nice, but removing forensic tech is also sad

[Roostercat]

I feel like having two of the same role with the same gear, job expectations, and etc will only cause the two to step on eachother. There are so many mysteries a round and both of them doing the same thing might cause some annoyance.

[Peppermint]

Would be nice if they could keep the flavor roles. 'Investigator' sounds kinda wishy-washy to me. Would also be nice if they could get something that isn't the darn trash-flash gun.

 

Overall like the change though. 

[niennab]

I should add that I fear the changes might mean more trouble than they're worth. Although I know my investigative pair won't have issue, what I more expect is player frustrations when paired with someone who instead opts to take the entire role from the other. I also think 'x doesn't have enough to do' isn't a valid excuse. Investigations has the flexibility to truly roleplay during a round of secret and if you're finding yourself without a task, go roleplay or act as a coordinator for security in lieu of a commander.

Edited August 24, 2020 by niennab
phrasing

[Pratepresidenten]

But what if I dont want to interrogate people and stick my nose into stuff, and just be a evidencerat? What if both investigators want this? Wouldnt that fall under failure to do your job? And wouldnt that be kinda shitty?

Im all for the merge, but, how would this be solved?

[Kintsugi]

My most recent Aurora character was a detective (and furthermore I actually attempted to PR this change in the past), all I'll say is that I agree with the proposal at hand. Detective is dreadfully boring unless you somehow end up in a situation that practically begs for your attention, or you invent situations to keep yourself occupied. Interrogations aren't really a lot of fun, to me, because a lot of antags who get captured don't actually fully bake their plan or backstory, and it ends up being a really one-sided conversation ("Why did you do it?" "They made me do it!" "Who is they?" "The syndicate!" "Why?" "I don't know!")

[geeves]

I played Detective recently and found it quite enjoyable. It's a chill RP role and you can choose to engage as much as you want. CSI and Forensic tech is a more mechanical focused role. I wouldn't want to see them merged, as I quite dislike the mechanical aspect of catching antags. Not to say that it's bad, but it's not my cup of tea. I feel like merging the roles will either do nothing, or make the role worse, as people in the role will be forced to do both aspects of it.

[OffRoad99]

I sometimes dabble in InvestigationRP, seeing the two roles merged would kill the great teamwork you could achieve by working together with your partner. One is an investigator, his job is to pursue lead and to work with the evidence processed by the partner. He interrogates suspects. He (should) deduce things. The other one rules on the crime scene by collecting all sorts of evidence, perform autopsies, sort & compile a solid trail of evidence. An organized player can do a lot with this.

I often see a Detective and CSI failing because they don't communicate and they don't work together.

More than anything, merging the two roles will create an issue: what if you simply enjoy to collect evidence & throw them at the Detective? What if you cba to handle evidence and simply want to pursue leads & interrogate people?

[TrainTN]

I support this change. I think allowing two people on equal standing to sort their work out among themselves according to their own preferences and expectations is a better idea than mechanically enforcing it through two similar-but-segregated roles. Especially when one of them is a forensic scientist and the other is typically a guy in a trenchcoat and fedora straight out of the 1930s.

I have been thinking about what you should call them. I suggest calling them "Private Investigators" since that's literally what they would be, and you could easily shorten the title to just "PI." And you could keep "Crime Scene Investigator" as an alt title, so you can paint a character as more forensics-oriented if you wanted to. Then you can have a PI and a CSI and maintain the same dynamics as before but without role restrictions getting in the way.

[Carver]

18 hours ago, TrainTN said:

I support this change. I think allowing two people on equal standing to sort their work out among themselves according to their own preferences and expectations is a better idea than mechanically enforcing it through two similar-but-segregated roles. Especially when one of them is a forensic scientist and the other is typically a guy in a trenchcoat and fedora straight out of the 1930s.

I have been thinking about what you should call them. I suggest calling them "Private Investigators" since that's literally what they would be, and you could easily shorten the title to just "PI." And you could keep "Crime Scene Investigator" as an alt title, so you can paint a character as more forensics-oriented if you wanted to. Then you can have a PI and a CSI and maintain the same dynamics as before but without role restrictions getting in the way.

If they were private investigators then they'd be Independents, and operating outside of the Security Department (akin to current indie journalists).

[TrainTN]

Just now, Carver said:

If they were private investigators then they'd be Independents, and operating outside of the Security Department (akin to current indie journalists).

Would being contracted to a corporation like Nanotrasen to investigate crimes on their properties not count as "private" investigation? I figured it could apply in the same way as "private military contractors," which is arguably applicable to Nanotrasen's ISD. It may be a small stretch of the definition, but I think 400 years in the future can permit it, so long as it's understandable.

[Carver]

PIs are notably very different from Police Detectives/Forensic Specialists (which is what our current ones are based after). You don't need any actual qualifications to be a PI, and they quite typically operate outside of the law (which is where the 'Private' part comes in). A PI is the type of guy you'd hire to spy on your wife and figure out if she's cheating on you.

[TrainTN]

16 minutes ago, Carver said:

PIs are notably very different from Police Detectives/Forensic Specialists (which is what our current ones are based after). You don't need any actual qualifications to be a PI, and they quite typically operate outside of the law (which is where the 'Private' part comes in). A PI is the type of guy you'd hire to spy on your wife and figure out if she's cheating on you.

Although that is a commonly depiction of them in the modern day, private investigators do all sorts of different work, and in many countries they do require licenses that do require qualifications, depending on region, and they are commonly ex-law enforcement or ex-security professionals. And in the past, they had much wider uses, such as the Pinkerton Detective Agency, and its many (in)famous exploits as what was essentially an agency of cops for hire with minimal oversight. They got powerful enough that the US government had to outlaw itself hiring private investigators due to rampant abuse.

Nothing really stops PIs from investigating real crimes, other than laws and law enforcement impeding them. And this is, again, centuries in the future where corporations running paramilitary organizations is totally normal. I see no reason that private detectives can't broaden their services, especially in the vast and remote expanses of the space frontier. It could very well lead to revival of organizations like the Pinkertons, except in the employ of megacorporations as well as governments. I wouldn't be surprised if the Eridani Federation had an FBI equivalent that is essentially a powerful and well-funded private detective agency for hire.

But to put it plainly, they're investigators that work in the private sector. They're private investigators. Simple as.

[Myazaki]

I feel like it'd be more likely to cause conflict between two people trying to do the same job, a job which is already starved for things to do in many rounds. As people have said already.

If people are struggling to communicate between CSI and Detective I'd rather see the role merged into one single job, and have the merged-role be encouraged to deputize Cadets/Officers should they ever be overworked and need backup.

[TrainTN]

Has there been any further thought on this? I'm still a big fan of the idea and the remapped offices. If it happened, I'd love to make a character for the role. Detective and CSI seem too narrow and limited by themselves to interest me. I like the idea of the merge because I think it would add versatility to both the work and the types of characters playing the role.

[Fluffy]

CSI is not a role anymore, so this suggestion is considered implemented.

Locking and archiving.