Nerf Robot Hyposprays

[Snakebittenn]

Mostly, nerf the soporific option so that it takes a couple of seconds to inject. One should not be able to fill a guy full of 15 units of soporific all in three seconds.

[Chada1]

I would be okay with something like this, I see it done too often. It's annoying and awful when Medical does it, and it's annoying and awful when Medical 'borgs do it. There's really no counterplay to a Soporific auto-injection except wearing a suit, and not many people will be doing that inside of the Station. This is a very hard to deal with feature for Crew dealing with Antagonist 'borgs and for Antagonists dealing with 'borgs.

My idea is to just lower the Soporific storage amount to 10, if that's possible. It'll allow for Medical 'borgs to still put people under for surgery, but to not be able to put people under for a year, instantly.

[sonicgotnuked]

Holy shit, I can't tell how many times I instantly got like 60 fucking units of sophoric put into my blood instantly. It is extremely shitty to sit around for thirty minutes asleep because a borg came up to you. You will be in a fight and bam, on the floor. Sedation without good reason is just a shitty thing to do.

[Scheveningen]

You folks need to adminhelp when a station-bound unit does this to you without being ordered to. Cyborgs are not permitted to go out of their way to put down people unless specifically instructed to or someone is actively endangering other crewmembers within the presence of a cyborg.

Not to mention the willful overdosing. If someone knows what soporific does they should also know enough that chemicals can overdose people.

[Chada1]

You folks need to adminhelp when a station-bound unit does this to you without being ordered to. Cyborgs are not permitted to go out of their way to put down people unless specifically instructed to or someone is actively endangering other crewmembers within the presence of a cyborg.

Not to mention the willful overdosing. If someone knows what soporific does they should also know enough that chemicals can overdose people.

 

You're entirely right, and i'm agreeing. But, none of what you said is likely to apply in what I said, this is still a near uncounterable tool, when dealing with 'borgs as an antag, or dealing with antag 'borgs. If you're not wearing a suit and it gets close to you, 25u of Soporific and you're out. Also, the overdose for Sopo is 30, a 25 instant injection is more than enough to put someone to sleep for about 10/15 minutes of ingame time. This is why i'd suggest lowering the maximum dose available to Cyborgs at one time.

[Ron]

PR for ref: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/2547

This makes the hypospray take 3 seconds to work. Just enough time for someone to back off if they realize whats going on and are paying attention.

[DatBerry]

i think another solution would be to simply remove sleep toxins from the hypospray, meaning borgs will have to vend a bottle and use the normal syringe, which already takes 3 seconds, while keeping helpful chemicals ready to be injected.

though the other solution also works, aslong as it only applies to the surgery borg, which is the only one with sleep toxins, the emergency borg needs their instant injection somewhat.

[Pratepresidenten]

Although I agree that getting overdosed with soporific is a bad way to go, most of these suggestions will be extremely crippling for the medical borg. The hypospray, for the borg is an instant injection that is meant to stabilize and treat the patient in the quickest way possible.

To impose restrictions on this tool will make things a lot more difficult for on the fly treatment, as you would for example, need to stand still and wait three whole seconds per injection. Efficient borgs quickly swap between the different chems to treat quickly, so spending 20 something seconds standing still while the slow hypo administers basic medicine will result in a dead patient.

Lets take an example of a shootout in security: The borg is dispatched from medical, picks up a critical injury, bleeding internally and externaly. It patches up the patient with the trama kit, but now it has a choice. At this point, the patient has most likely lost 15-20% blood, and they're stuck at 110+ brute. The patients overall health will drop rather quickly as they start to suffocate from the rapidly declining blood level.

Now, the borg could spend 9+ precious seconds injecting the guy with basic stabilizers, haul him off to medical, wait an additional 9 seconds once there after scanning them to provide them with soporific for the surgery an then get to the OR and sit around while it waits for the soporific kicks in. (Although, at this point, the patient is probably unconscious from the bloodloss, so you might aswell operate)

And this is only one patient. Imagine having to treat several patients at once.

Stationbound medical borgs are supposed to be efficient. They scan and treat people in a swift and effective manner to allow the patient to get back to work as soon as possible.

To quote something from the thread about the second OR on newmap:

The medical department shouldn't be expecting full on fire fights and as many causalities.

 

As we're not supposed to be expecting antags, firefights or rogue synthetics, then why should we cripple a module that is meant to help the station crew in the best way possible?

This is very much an ahelp worthy issue, as Delta said. We should punish the 5% playerbase that abuse this module for an easy takedown, and not punish the rest that actually do well with this module.

[Scheveningen]

Three seconds is excessive for a hypospray proc. That makes it effectively no better than a syringe.

[Skull132]

Will ponder and may redo the PR.

But soporific in borgs is dumb considering the current policy on silicons and their abilities. It is policy that silicons can intervene without fear of death in situations where a crew member's life is in danger or there's a legitimate chance of them getting the opponent down without injury to themselves. [mention]Garnascus[/mention] and [mention]Shadow[/mention] can correct me. This makes mechanical adjustments in lieu of this fact necessary, unless policy is altered.

So they either get an injection timer, or they get sopo removed. Or some third solution that I'm open to. All to make them less effective combatants because fuck soporific hyposprays.

[Shadow]

Keep the hyprospray and remove the sopforic option for it. They have to get a bottle and inject it with a syringe.

[Keknar]

I believe, unless something has changed since i last tried the medbay vendors, you would have to give borgs the ability to vend from the vendors so they could get the bottles if its removed from the hypospray.

[Chada1]

I believe, unless something has changed since i last tried the medbay vendors, you would have to give borgs the ability to vend from the vendors so they could get the bottles if its removed from the hypospray.

 

Nooope. They can vend from the Medical Vendors.

 

Keep the hyprospray and remove the sopforic option for it. They have to get a bottle and inject it with a syringe.

 

Please. I don't want 'borgs who don't use the Soporific option to get punished over this. Soporific in conjunction with the Hypospray is the issue, not the Hyposprays themselves. 'Borgs are fully capable of obtaining Soporific nearly anywhere in Medical, they don't need it in the Hypospray. This coming from someone who has played 'Borgs, Medical included, a Lot.

[Skull132]

Sitting on this for a week and going to let people suffer injection timers during new map meme this weekend.

Once again, let me reiterate. Current silicon policy demands that one of these mechanical restrictions be put in place, lest we start forcing silicons to participate in fearRP and related shenanigans. Which is not to be debated here but should be its own suggestion that I will then flog the head admins with.

And again, if anyone has a third alternative, feel free to recommend. But the general idea is:

No fear + minimal need for rational thinking/self preservation + access to (near)instastun = Whiteknighting for days with an OP piece of kit.

If your suggestion doesn't change the final outcome of the above equation, then it most likely is not fit for purpose.

[Garnascus]

keeping things that can be easily abused while punishing said abusers is a policy that has to be handled very carefully. it can create a lot of situations where we have to play catch up and yell at people AFTER the round has already been negatively impacted by someone breaking rules. I think we should just remove the soporific from the borg hyposprays.

[AWPen]

I don't think all borg players should get punished, but if a lot of you keep running around doing this shit the function it was intended for will be removed, I think they should lose sophoric from the hypospray and just use normal syringe. It's annoying in the middle of RPing an antag and a borg runs up to you and removes you from play for 15 minutes with no counter.

[NoahKirchner]

They definitely can ruin a round faster than the abusers can be punished.

I've been a head rev on a rev round before, set up a huge ambush for the captain with doors locks and taking the captain into a little maintenance room with every door maglocked but one, which almost nobody has access to so I could monologue and interrogate him (He was acting scared, was gr8), but the AI had already ordered a borg to come up through the back, open up the one weak spot, and injected me with soporific about 8 times because "I would have been able to flash them" as a medical borg. It was handled, sure, and the player was warned and what-not, but no amount of post-event fixing stuff would have allowed that round to play out with any sort of conflict (was really lowpop), and I spent the next 30 minutes in a cell until the captain went SSD.

Preemptively stopping super easy to abuse, round ruining (or at least antag, which is sort of round ruining) tactics is, I think, the best option whenever they're so readily available, not locked behind a whitelist and the rules of the race would technically allow for it.

[sonicgotnuked]

Honestly, just remove the soporific, there is ways to sedate people like knocking them out using a needle with a vended bottle. I am fine with the hypospray.

[Pratepresidenten]

If a compromize needs to be made, then I suppose removal of soporific would be the lesser evil. Soporific can still be easily administered through the sleepers in medical, or from a nanomed. Hell, you can even to through the efforts of making a chloral mix from chemistry.

[HouseOfSynth]

Why don't we just meet in the middle here? Vending a bottle and syringing it is a bit clunky and requires extra time. Instead why not just add a timer JUST for soporific in the hypospray. It makes no sense to take longer to inject the hypospray for chemicals like inapravoline because well.. you can't really abuse that. As prate said the borgs are supposed to be efficient so it only makes sense they have everything they need on their modules, having a 3 second injection delay on just the soporific both keeps the efficiency and reduces the ability to shut antags down via spamfiring the current soporofic hypospray.

[Skull132]

Why don't we just meet in the middle here? Vending a bottle and syringing it is a bit clunky and requires extra time. Instead why not just add a timer JUST for soporific in the hypospray. It makes no sense to take longer to inject the hypospray for chemicals like inapravoline because well.. you can't really abuse that. As prate said the borgs are supposed to be efficient so it only makes sense they have everything they need on their modules, having a 3 second injection delay on just the soporific both keeps the efficiency and reduces the ability to shut antags down via spamfiring the current soporofic hypospray.

 

Because snowflake handling of reagents like this is bad code and bad game design.

[Bygonehero]

Replace soporific with Tramadol in all borgs. Surgeries unless in absolute triage situations shouldn't be things you rush into. Getting the chemicals needed should be a secondary primary step.

With Tramadol even if your actuator deep in flesh and bone you can still operate on someone and they not go into pain crit if you ABSOLUTELY need to. I.E station on fire, everyone dying surgeries everywhere.

[NoahKirchner]

I've gotta say, the Tramadol idea might be pretty neat for those "Station on fire" type rounds, far more so than having them drift off to sleep. Then you get to arrpee being awake while someone's playing in your gut and that's something you dont get to do too often otherwise.

[Pratepresidenten]

Having played one round with the three second delay on the hypo, I just have to say, please, for the love of everything that is holy, just remove soporific and give back the instant hypo. I dont even care about a replacement drug at this point. The three second delay is so bad its literally killing my drive to play medical.

[Arrow768]

PR with alternative solution is up for discussion:

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/2623