Departmental Security

[Snakebittenn]

wow for once something i can't code myself


Essentially, instead of Security just being a formless mob not beheld to defending any departments, Sec would be assigned to a department.
What does this mean?
For the uninitiated, essentially, each department (Engineering, Medical, Science, Supply) would have a little Security office. Contains every console they need, a recharger, a locker, yadda. In character setup, there would be a 'Department Preference for Sec' button that would mark down what department you'd prefer to be in, and if no one else has selected that, you will get it. Your Officer will spawn with either a department armband, or maybe some kind of department-flavored helmet/vest. They will spawn with a headset with both channels, and will be at the direct command of whoever's in charge of your department at the moment.

But why?
All too often, Security never pays attention to other departments during Code Red. We are often forced to seek other avenues of defense, such as ordering guns, making pikes, creating gallons of acid, what have you. This change would be meant to pretty much force Security to actually, well, secure us. 
 

[whiterabit]

Some questions.

 

1. How will prisoners be kept with this change? The brig is currently centralized along with everything else an officer needs, it's a single location they'll need to return back to. Will they drop off prisoners and then run back to their assigned posting half way across the station? What if there's no warden or head of security? Are there expected to be holding cells in every department or will they be kept away for the duration of each sentence while they watch the brig?

 

2. Most of what makes a security team effective is their coordination. If security are expected to single-handedly hold each department, their effectiveness will drop significantly. After a few novelty rounds, I highly doubt that the majority of security players are going to be hiding out in their respective departments when it puts them at a massive disadvantage against any opponent who has the intention to use mobility as a strategy. If security are still teaming up to go and play aggressively, as they often have to against mobile opponents, won't this defeat the point of the suggestion?

 

3. Crew antagonists get a lot of leeway by not having security constantly breathing down their necks in their own departments. This really seems like it would change that and put a near constant sec presence in every department so long as the slots are filled. What are your intentions for the access given to the officers assigned to each department? Will they have full access to the department? Limited? None more than now?

[Carver]

As someone who leans towards the more passive/defensive style of Security, I quite like this idea. But as asked above, what becomes of the brig? Is this more or less the current system except every officer now has slightly different access and an individual office?

I can certainly see this improving the general RP potential of Security now that they'd be encouraged to interact with other departments far more regularly; and less inclined to spend half their day walking in a circle, lounging in their department or going to the bar.

[ComradeCorbyn]

This has already been done in TG codebases, and I enjoy it. For starters, it allows the security officer to be assigned a place to guard and access - and in some cases, act as a liaison. But TG is far different than Aurora, and that's an understatement. 

I'm interested to see how this would work here, and if security posts would be added to each department as well. This would also leave, as Carver said, wiggle room for interaction with the rest of the departments. However, it would make antagonists feel the pressure of security in their department far more than before. 

[AmoryBlaine]

I'm quite sure if this were to be added, Offficers would just walk out of their departments anyways and return to their normal tactics of grouping up where needed. 

[VTCobaltblood]

My personal security bitchboy to expand my character's arrest record? Yes!
I tend to somewhat agree with Corbyn's point about being especially pressured security breathing in your neck right in your department as an antag. However, this also means that security is a bit less coordinated across the board - instead of all being in their little coop, they're scuttered around the station.
I also like a lot how it would facilitate security's interaction with the other departments. The brig can be manned by the warden - I mean, they are called a warden, aren't they? 
I just pray the map changes creating these little offices don't detract from departments' current mapping cough chapel cough. All in all, I'm all for it. 

[Arrow768]

Indeed, the biggest issue with assigning a security officer to a department is, that they have access to that department.

It is going to make antaggery so much more difficult if there is a chance that security could walk in on you at any time, in your own department.

[VTCobaltblood]

Maybe the access could be limited to just the hallways? Considering most rooms have a lot of windows.
I also feel like the increased difficulty will make antagonism more quality in general. You'll have to think of ways to not make a security officer walk in on you - be it murder, sleepytime or a clever distraction.

Edited December 30, 2018 by VTCobaltblood

[Skull132]

What would become of the brig and the HoS? Those are the two key points, IMO.

 

At present, the main reason why security is as effective and potent as they are, is because they are centrally coordinated. If we implemented this suggestion while retaining those elements of central coordination, then the only thing that would happen is what Arrow describes: you'd effectively buff security by extending their access. And thus, there would be no point to this suggestion.

If, however, we damage security's ability to coordinate, then there might well be merit to this PR, as it would completely shift the antag focus from, "Survive security" to, hopefully, "Do interesting shit". This could easily be done by completely allocating the department officer(s) to the command of the relevant head and removing the security channel from them. Because, really, they're there to guarantee the safety of the department, not keep order in the bar, and they have all of the information necessary for that via the department head set.

Now, this comes with two major issues to sort out and unfuck. First, how do we brig? It might be an idea to have a very small "brig detachment" around. They basically fill the role of the wardens and handle jailing, weapons deployment, etcetera. Allocate them under a brig command who listens to command or the captain and voila. You have a decentralized, infinite less effective security department, which now focuses on protecting departments instead of protecting the station.

But the second issue is a more interesting one. Da fuck would these departmental security officers do when there's nothing else to do? One major benefit that the centralization of security offers, from a purely gameplay and enjoyment perspective, is the feeling of not being alone. If you want, you can do shit with your fellow officers, or even, at a minimum, talk with them. You're all in the same boat, do the same job, etcetera. Now imagine being in a department where everyone else does something you cannot do. And it might end up being horribly draining on the players. Which is, ultimately, not something we want. However, it might not be all that bad; this is something that, unfortunately, is hard to gauge without testing.

Oh and also i hope you are prepared for the shit storm that ensues if this is even considered for PR-ing.

[VTCobaltblood]

16 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

If, however, we damage security's ability to coordinate, then there might well be merit to this PR, as it would completely shift the antag focus from, "Survive security" to, hopefully, "Do interesting shit". This could easily be done by completely allocating the department officer(s) to the command of the relevant head and removing the security channel from them. Because, really, they're there to guarantee the safety of the department, not keep order in the bar, and they have all of the information necessary for that via the department head set.

I really like this idea. Departmental access of the departmental security should also be somewhat basic, maybe to the general dangerous areas where people may often need retrieval (for example, cargo security should definitely have access to mining airlocks, but i don't see why they would need access to the cargo surface rooms), and all of the hallways. 

16 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

It might be an idea to have a very small "brig detachment" around. They basically fill the role of the wardens and handle jailing, weapons deployment, etcetera. Allocate them under a brig command who listens to command or the captain and voila. You have a decentralized, infinite less effective security department, which now focuses on protecting departments instead of protecting the station.

Said detachment could maybe be moved to the bridge, and access would be provided by heads of staff. If you have no heads of staff, well, then either break in or get no armoury. Perhaps each security office would also get a couple of small cells to hold people until transfer or until the brig detachment becomes available if it's not (due to the lack of heads). 

8 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

But the second issue is a more interesting one. Da fuck would these departmental security officers do when there's nothing else to do? One major benefit that the centralization of security offers, from a purely gameplay and enjoyment perspective, is the feeling of not being alone. If you want, you can do shit with your fellow officers, or even, at a minimum, talk with them. You're all in the same boat, do the same job, etcetera. Now imagine being in a department where everyone else does something you cannot do. And it might end up being horribly draining on the players. Which is, ultimately, not something we want. However, it might not be all that bad; this is something that, unfortunately, is hard to gauge without testing.

I really doubt a security officer will be absolutely unable to do anything to help out their department aside from securing them. I feel like in a pinch, a security officer could serve as a rudimentary department assistant - fetch crates from cargo, haul heavy emitters, you know? Not to mention that, well, there are many things to do on the station than just your job - generally helping people out, talking to people, not to mention the civillian department... I would actually love to have an always present security officer to involve in my little sci gimmicks, and I really don't feel like they'll run out of things to do in a shift. 

[Skull132]

1 minute ago, VTCobaltblood said:

18 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

It might be an idea to have a very small "brig detachment" around. They basically fill the role of the wardens and handle jailing, weapons deployment, etcetera. Allocate them under a brig command who listens to command or the captain and voila. You have a decentralized, infinite less effective security department, which now focuses on protecting departments instead of protecting the station.

Said detachment could maybe be moved to the bridge, and access would be provided by heads of staff. If you have no heads of staff, well, then either break in or get no armoury. Perhaps each security office would also get a couple of small cells to hold people until transfer or until the brig detachment becomes available if it's not (due to the lack of heads). 

Well, the point was that said detachment is always staffed. Like you have 2 brig officers (not enough to take on most antags alone) to sit in the brig and assist with hauling off baddies whenever the department officers catch them. You can't really maintain a brig with no one in it, so the idea of moving it to the bridge and being used as necessary isn't really going to work.

[VTCobaltblood]

Just now, Skull132 said:

Well, the point was that said detachment is always staffed. Like you have 2 brig officers (not enough to take on most antags alone) to sit in the brig and assist with hauling off baddies whenever the department officers catch them. You can't really maintain a brig with no one in it, so the idea of moving it to the bridge and being used as necessary isn't really going to work.

True. Maybe the warden role could be kept? Though I can see that becoming a dead role considering they won't even have a department to attach themselves to, and would now do nothing to coordinate security and its equipment (because we don't want security to coordinate), just watch over the brig that doesn't even always get someone to be in it. The brig officers would really suffer from the same problem - it's just too small of a niche of things to do.

[Felkvir]

I don't get this at all. I think most of what I've thought of has already been mentioned so I'll just go off on an automatic rant. 

What about centralized security bothers you? The way they function right now makes perfect sense to me. There is a clear hierarchy, this order seems like something that would arise naturally in corporate world especially in this setting. The structure allows for full command of the security forces (and easy transfer if need be), coordination is easy and all of the info/areas etc is gathered/official. It just feels right, you know? Its easy, and highly functional. I have seen people complain a lot more on Aurora than any other server about sec apparently ruining for antags. Not trying to offend anyone but I don't think devolving security is the answer if some people playing antags are having difficulties. Security is always being bashed on, and IMO this thread seems kinda like that just disguised under a 'suggestion'. Have an issue with some people who play sec, sure (I've met plenty of retards, same with antags). But removing what security is doesn't seem like a good idea at all. Personal bad experiences shouldn't dictate changing an entire solidified aspect of the station. We could try, but it would probably turn to shit. We should focus on adding and improving positively, not removing. 

[Chada1]

The Detective could share the brig area with the Wardens IMO. His office could be there, I mean. Would be neat, I really like this idea and I think it'll work well with the Lore direction ATM. The Warden/s and Detective/CSI could have the old Security headsets too.

So in effect, there'd still be a staffed brig but all of the officers would be spread among the Stations' departments. If you wanted to take this further, you could also put the 'Corporate Reporter' spawnpoint in the Brig and allow him to work with Security, but keep the Freelance Journalist with no access to it.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Chada1

[Hocka]

20 minutes ago, Felkvir said:

IMO this thread seems kinda like that just disguised under a 'suggestion'.

I actually play Sec fairly often, and I think this sounds like a cool idea. My only question would be about how people who need to be brigged are handled, which there's already decent suggestions for in the thread.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Hocka

[Skull132]

Just now, Felkvir said:

IWhat about centralized security bothers you? The way they function right now makes perfect sense to me. There is a clear hierarchy, this order seems like something that would arise naturally in corporate world especially in this setting. The structure allows for full command of the security forces (and easy transfer if need be), coordination is easy and all of the info/areas etc is gathered/official. It just feels right, you know? Its easy, and highly functional. I have seen people complain a lot more on Aurora than any other server about sec apparently ruining for antags. Not trying to offend anyone but I don't think devolving security is the answer if some people playing antags are having difficulties. Security is always being bashed on, and IMO this thread seems kinda like that just disguised under a 'suggestion'. Have an issue with some people who play sec, sure (I've met plenty of retards, same with antags). But removing what security is doesn't seem like a good idea at all. Personal bad experiences shouldn't dictate changing an entire solidified aspect of the station. We could try, but it would probably turn to shit. We should focus on adding and improving positively, not removing. 

I mean. If you asked me as a security commander or as someone who was meant to coordinate or plan an active defense against an outside threat, then yes, you're right. The current security set up is good, relatively efficient and flexible. Literally no one is disputing that. In fact, this is the issue.

Which leads me to the other side of the debate. Gameplay. Whether you wish to admit this or not, playing antagonist is all about evading or confronting security. The more time you spend on station active, the more you have to deal with this challenge. The entire setting is built up in a fashion which gives the station security an advantage, and if the antagonist does not address this advantage as their primary issue, then they will not have any effect on the round. However, what is the main point of an antagonist?

Quote

The primary goal of antagonists is to DRIVE A STORY AND TO GENERATE INTERACTION.

Arguably, with security in its current form requiring this much attention from the antagonists, they are incapable of performing said goal. Literally because a lot of their attention, instead of being put towards how to drive or create a story, is put towards evading capture and security. Which is how the efficiency of the current setup becomes an issue.

[furrycactus]

I really love this idea, especially given that it allows security to be more disseminated throughout the station and get better interaction with people in other departments. It's a really good thing, but my only other concern is how the Cadet role would be handled from then onward. I'm assuming they'd simply remain a standalone role and then go seek out the respective security personnel that is in a job they intend to learn, rather than just floating about, right?

[Chada1]

Would it be possible to have Cadets auto assigned to a random department on joining the round? Especially ones with Officers present?

[ComradeCorbyn]

I like what ideas have been generated thus far, and I like decentralizing security into the departments. This, in addition to other things, will increase interaction with the departments and the antagonists as well as each other. However, in my opinion, to make this work we'd need to prevent everybody in the department just grabbing their plasteel spears and R&D laser weapons to go and get some antag blood, but allow the guard to actually guard them. 

This doesn't mean totally eliminating non-security involvement in combat against antags, but rather prevent random people from dunking on them. 

[Felkvir]

14 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

 

Which leads me to the other side of the debate. Gameplay. Whether you wish to admit this or not, playing antagonist is all about evading or confronting security. The more time you spend on station active, the more you have to deal with this challenge. The entire setting is built up in a fashion which gives the station security an advantage, and if the antagonist does not address this advantage as their primary issue, then they will not have any effect on the round. However, what is the main point of an antagonist?

Arguably, with security in its current form requiring this much attention from the antagonists, they are incapable of performing said goal. Literally because a lot of their attention, instead of being put towards how to drive or create a story, is put towards evading capture and security. Which is how the efficiency of the current setup becomes an issue.

This is kind of where your argument starts to make less sense. Yes, the security department is well equipped and organized. Why wouldn't they be? You seem to have this presumption that security itself must be at fault. But you admit it yourself; the more time you spend fucking around (and I've seen a lot of people here do that) the more your chances are of being caught. Antag should not be a position where someone holds your hand. They are there to create story and action, and the rest of the station should not be forced to change to accomodate to them for them to accomplish that. 

[Hocka]

1 minute ago, Felkvir said:

the rest of the station should not be forced to change to accomodate to them for them to accomplish that.  

I think the point was more that it's only Security who get the interaction because they're the ones who go hunting antags, and everyone else just gets the occasional chatter over Common, and an antag can't generate RP with the other departments because Sec'll constantly hound them.

[Felkvir]

14 minutes ago, Hocka said:

I think the point was more that it's only Security who get the interaction because they're the ones who go hunting antags, and everyone else just gets the occasional chatter over Common, and an antag can't generate RP with the other departments because Sec'll constantly hound them.

This seems like a rather strong generalization since I have seen repeatedly antags interact with other departments if they show themselves at all. If you ask me and what I have experienced, its that antags are way too careful or too restricted and don't use any avenues of manipulation or attack as a result. And like I said some people can straight up just be too incompetent, that happens with any role in the game. If you're looking at antags not adding enough to a round with all the variables of Aurora considered its very strange to me that you immediately put your attention on this, wanting to *remove* something instead of trying to improve what we have. 

[Skull132]

4 minutes ago, Felkvir said:

This is kind of where your argument starts to make less sense. Yes, the security department is well equipped and organized. Why wouldn't they be? You seem to have this presumption that security itself must be at fault. But you admit it yourself; the more time you spend fucking around (and I've seen a lot of people here do that) the more your chances are of being caught. Antag should not be a position where someone holds your hand. They are there to create story and action, and the rest of the station should not be forced to change to accomodate to them for them to accomplish that. 

First of all, there is no fault to be had. This is not an attack, nor punishment, you should not view it as such. This is gameplay design, nothing else.

Second of all, no one is suggesting that we hold the antagonist's hand. That is a horribly extreme view to impose upon this thread, and surely an invalid one. All that has been said is that security is too powerful, at present, for the antagonists to further their role ingame to a decent degree of satisfaction. And that the root of the issue is how security is currently represented as a department. Your only two ways of really dealing with security's presence is to do 1 thing and then bugger off, or by committing yourself to running fast and light strikes against the station. Anything that requires you to stand your ground to any degree will result in your losing, since security, once prepped, will only take a few minutes to get to you. You cannot really claim that this is solely the antagonist's issue, if anything but two tactics are invalidated.

And the final note is, back to the point of gameplay design, the only other way to fiddle this issue is to severely buff antagonists. To the point where 1 man can easily evade or neutralize the average 3 - 5 security team. But holy shit, that will not work, since such a requirement making said antagonists too powerful. So instead, you disperse the 3 - 5 man security team. Which is what this suggestion aims to do.

9 minutes ago, Felkvir said:

If you're looking at antags not adding enough to a round with all the variables of Aurora considered its very strange to me that you immediately put your attention on this, wanting to *remove* something instead of trying to improve what we have.

I would argue that is not necessarily removal, for one. For two, this arbitrary crying of, "No, stop removing things!" is dumb, since following it would stone wall us into a whole load of fucking stupid decisions. Ultimately, you are free to start your own thread with an idea on how to solve the issue of antagonists having to focus too widely on security, but until that thread is made, this present idea is entirely valid.

[Lent23]

I genuinely think this is a good idea.

Give each department their own Sec officer that listens to the department head. They'll protect the department and the people inside it. Give them access to said department. The head of that department has responsibility over that officer. They are part of their department, rather than specifically part of Security.

Each department now gets a security locker with basic equipment in it. A Security belt, standard supplies, an energy pistol. Give them a little checkpoint and a desk maybe inside, with a window to the hallway? Example: Cargo Security desk can be just underneath where the desks are in the Cargo Bay, or you could move around the mail room a bit to give them view of the disposals chute. Give them a rifle locked up in a fire axe container on the wall. Only heads can unlock these. Please let QM open Cargo's containers.

Remove the armory. Specialty weapons like the Ion Rifle can be moved to the bridge under a similar fire axe container.

Keep the Warden around to manage prisoners that are brought in by the department security members/detective(s). Detective Office/CSI becomes part of the Brig. MAYBE add a secondary, Co-Warden just to help when prisoners get unruly?

Move the Civilian department to where Security is now. Expand opportunities for civilian RP. There's so many visitors so often. Give them some place to go. This would leave Cargo far away from the most of Civilian sector, so they would require their own security. Cargo also deals with more sensitive things than Civ, so it would be better to give them their own security officer anyways imo.

If you're worried about not being able to hang out with your Sec buddies, send them a PDA. Ask them to go on break with you when you get hungry. Tell your Department Manager that you'll be back in 15/30. Create some RP. Talk about how bad your departments are behind their backs. Talk about how great your departments are behind their backs. This is pretty normal. Security officers in real life security jobs are typically assigned a station to guard, and they can always text their buddies, meet up after work, etc. Create yourself some new buddies in the department you're guarding this shift.

Overall, it seems like this would create a more interesting antagonist dynamic. You're a Cargo Technician and you want to get some illegal things done? Try to bribe your security officer, maybe they'll look the other way? Maybe just try to avoid him while he's in your department. Look at Outside antagonists. They go now from "Fuck, we need to look out for the security blob" to "We can get into this department and maybe handle one officer, and see what we can do from there." "We now have Cargo, maybe we can head to Science next." Cue getting absolutely destroyed by Durands some departmental cooperation. "Can we borrow your officer? We've got a problem." "Get ready, Science, we're seeing some problems here in Medical."

We go from 4 Officers, 2 Cadets, 1 Warden, 1 CSI, 1 Detective, 1 HoS to 1 science, 1 medical, 1 engineering, 1 cargo, 1 civilian, 1 command(?), 1/2 detective(S), 1 CSI. 1/2 Warden. Cadets could be randomly (or sent to the HoP to be) assigned to a department with a competent officer. Head of Security is pretty much defunct with this setup. Any security matters can go to department heads or the Captain, if needed. It would be relatively unchanged with regards to amount of total Security.

tl;dr good idea pls do

[Juani2400]

As a regular Security player, I quite enjoy this idea. As an also regular player of the Head of Security position, not that much. Realistically, we would still need to give the role of supervising and managing the security side of a highly guarded research station to one. While I agree that with this setup, the role of a HoS is kinda weird because you also have the respective head of that department giving you orders, there would be always someone supervising that task, and it should not be done by a Captain, as that would basically interfere with his status of general supervisor of the station, making it impossible to appeal to someone higher if you deem your arrest order not valid

 

We also need to keep the auxiliary roles that come with Security, as they make up for a great deal of what Security does, this meaning CSI and Detective, which could potentially be merged into a single "Forensics Expert" role or similar. At least one Brig Officer is also necessary, for handing the prisoners and sentences. I also see trouble with this system in that we would have no one to cover certain areas of the station, namely the hallways and the surface area. We would need to add one or two officers extra to cover these, potentially could be the responsibility of the cadets. It would also be a good time to give the checkpoint an actual use, with the implementation of mechanics that are useful to it, that I discussed with Arrow some time ago, including X-ray and stuff.

 

A minimum level of coordination is still needed, and as such, Security shouldn't lose their frequency, as departmental guards will eventually require backup when dealing with certain people.

 

The supervision of Security could fall into the jurisdiction of the Head of Personnel, as personnel discipline and actions and staff breaking regulations are close enough. We could even potentially give them a different title to reflect this. They would not be directly in charge of actively leading Security, but they would be the highest authority in charge of the security staff. The idea probably needs expanding, so I'll just drop it here for you to discuss it.