Staff Complaint - Drwago, Garnascus

[Rosetango]

BYOND Key: Rosetango
Staff BYOND Key: Drwago, Garnascus
Game ID: b2d-aY5b
Reason for complaint: I was banned for a week for "self antagging" when Cynosure, the AI, refused to let me into atmospheric to touch TWO PUMPS so that the station could refill quickly and the PAPs would fill properly. I explained extensively to the AI that they shouldn't be keeping me out as it violates their laws, and I told Drwago, as I've been told by @Pratepresidenten, if two laws conflict, then the AI is to do NOTHING, to which she said I was rules-lawyering. There was a lot of people present that round that ALSO told the AI to let me into atmospherics. I don't know all of their CKeys, but @Mogelix and two others told the AI to let me in. The captain, @Contextual told the AI after a long time to stop it, but it was too late as I was receiving a week ban. I went through the necessary steps of escalation before doing what I did. I asked command over communications, I got no response I believe. Other crew came to my aid. The AI ignored them. I PDA messaged the Command staff, Thea and @Contextual. No immediate response. I cut the AI control to the atmos APC so it stops interfering with me checking the pumps. I have to HACK INTO atmospherics after the AI constantly bolts and turns off the power to the door. Over two fucking pumps. The AI was called away for other things but CONSTANTLY stalked me. Every time I went down to atmos, they turned off the power. Nobody wants to even consider I'm being targeted or metagrudged.

Also, before this, I've only gotten a day ban. This was instantly escalated to a permaban regarding Willow although I was playing Samara, but then lowered to a week ban and not a three day ban, which is strange to me as I know there is a certain way of escalating bans, as it goes warning, 1 day, 3 day, week, and permaban. It feels like I did everything I needed to do, but still got fucked in the ass for my character trying to do her job. And yes, she's going to claim it's rogue because it is not serving the crew by preventing me from doing my job.
Evidence/logs/etc: https://pastebin.com/n5eyCVNu I was so upset that I left the game immediately before being banned. I was not able to get logs from my perspective.
Additional remarks: Two other people who were present that round that I know the CKeys of were @Bear and @Seeli. @Seeli actually has logs of what happened, IIRC. @Brayce also taught me a day or two before this on how to set up those two atmos pumps, if you think I'm metagaming.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Rosetango
Added some more information.

[Alberyk]

To clear this up:

-if two laws conflict, the AI should not do anything.

-the AI not allowing someone where they don't access unless there is an emergency or something that is really needed, which is not the case here because it was just a pump which you could also have got somewhere else or just used other ways to fill the air, is not against any of their laws

 

Also, I think that calling the AI out as subverted due to that, unless command staff or someone with access to atmos ordered it otherwise, is not really cool here. However, not sure about one week due to just cutting out the AI control of some areas and hidding away.

 

I will wait on @DRagO and @Garnascus input on this.

[Rosetango]

The thing is, the PAPs don't fill unless I go into atmos and set the pumps up correctly, which, in the case of an emergency, not being able to set that up is really bad, because the only other two PAPs on main level are in atmos. The rest are on surface. The rooms also fill PAINFULLY SLOW on their default setting. Ask any engineer.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Rosetango

[Lady Fowl]

1. You are not a atmos tech, you may have atmos training but you are not a atmos tech and cannot be in there unless command has issued you access.

2. Garn told you the AI's behavior was valid

3. This was in no form a law conflict

4. You begin to convince crew the ai was rouge/malf and even went as far as to later break into the area, cut apc wires and weld yourself into a locker.

This wasnt metagrudge or poor play by the AI, they were doing there job and you did not like being told no, its pretty plain and simple. Being upset icly or oocly does not excuse self antagging which instead of ahelping again you decided to act out in a unrealistic manner.

 

 

The ban was applied by @Garnascus however, I feel the week ban itself is generous due to the fact you were told recently you need to shape up your behavior as Willow, which what you did in response to this situation is essentially the same issue that had been happening with Willow which is unrealistic and outlandish outbursts to small issues.

I have no issue with lifting the ban even though I did not place it under the condition that a actual commitment to improving roleplay is made, as this becomes a issue if it repeats over and over again with warnings or small bans, nobody wants to be banned nor do I want anybody to be banned but im saying I feel there needs to be a cemented commitment to tell staff that this behavior is being curbed

[Rosetango]

I welded myself into a locker BEFORE cutting the APC. The locker bit came after I hacked open the main atmos door, which is STANDARD SET UP for all Engineering staff. Sammo was frustrated and was scared that security was going to come after her. It's not an unrealistic response, because the AI is not above the crew. The AI is below the crew is terms of giving commands. The AI was WATCHING ME constantly. The behavior might have been valid, but that doesn't mean it's right. It doesn't matter if I cannot be in there, because every other engineer does the same exact thing I do. Ask @Brayce and @Cnaym.

[Rosetango]

Quote

I have no issue with lifting the ban even though I did not place it under the condition that a actual commitment to improving roleplay is made, as this becomes a issue if it repeats over and over again with warnings or small bans, nobody wants to be banned nor do I want anybody to be banned but im saying I feel there needs to be a cemented commitment to tell staff that this behavior is being curbed

I do have a serious commitment. Did you even read Alberyk's judgement on my previous complaint about Willow?

[Naelynn]

I'm reading the post now, and I do play engineering. In fact, it was the department I started SS13 with on aurora. The portable pumps on main level don't fill properly and EVERYONE knows this.

Either 1) Fix atmospherics on round start so shit actually works or 2) accept that people will fix it for you.

[Cnaym]

38 minutes ago, DRagO said:

The ban was applied by @Garnascus however, I feel the week ban itself is generous

 

28 minutes ago, Naelynn said:

Either 1) Fix atmospherics on round start so shit actually works or 2) accept that people will fix it for you.

That is really conflicting... i play engineer a lot, it was my start, too. I consider myself more than able with that and yeah... we all do the atmos thing, we all learn the atmos thing... as an engineer you just do the thing. It's standart settup, if an AI has a problem with that... let command staff handle that IC. Like have her arrested for breaking in, explain it, whatever.... a one week ban shouldn't be the solution to an IC issue that really only affects the one round it happened to be a problem.

On the other hand i get why this would be prescribed back to Willow and the past but i realy don't see anything strange coming from Samara Watson here. She is yelling a lot, she wants her space a lot... and i think that is totaly acceptable behaviour, since all in all she wants the best for the station and crew (a lot). Considering that most of engineering is Booz-O-Mat main by now i don't really think banning them for a week, which is not generous at all, is the smart thing to do. Make a note, tell her she went after a possible malf for no good reason and to just get permission from command next time (I see that she tried to contact them and if she moved on without awaiting an answer telling her to wait until going in loud would make sense for me.) or an Atmos tech / CE arrives.

46 minutes ago, DRagO said:

I have no issue with lifting the ban even though I did not place it under the condition that a actual commitment to improving roleplay is made, as this becomes a issue if it repeats over and over again with warnings or small bans, nobody wants to be banned nor do I want anybody to be banned but im saying I feel there needs to be a cemented commitment to tell staff that this behavior is being curbed

I feel where you are coming from with that, we have a lot of people doing other peoples jobs and it's annoying me a lot lately -> My hate pit is the surgeons who can do everything but thats another thing i guess...

We should think about the implication of her action though. She used the tools she always uses. She did the thing everybody does. It is part of the engine -> Waste to filtering maxing is what makes the common setup more stable. The other ones are faster room filling and enabling the tools upstairs, which she has access to and needs, to be usefull in any shape or form. And she did not try to do anything that is atmos specific at all... if she was doing a special mix or flooding the station with something i'd get why this is bad RP and self antaging, but trying to reason with an AI that just focused on not letting her in seems very much in character for me. That's what Samara does, a lot... even with command staff. Sometimes she get's her way, sometimes not, but in almost all cases she RPs it well enough to not be problematic with it.

I'm interested in @Brayce on this, as he teaches this IC. It's basicly -> do the quick and easy thing, as atmos is complex and hard, but this simple thing is really usefull for you as an engineer

May post a bit more after i read what @Garnascus says about this. So far I've had pleasent talks with all parties involved here and think we can figure this out together, since it is something that everyone does and a fair ruling on it would be useful for future reference. Don't think any of us is focusing on the ban duration that much... a week passes quickly... i for one just fear that if we take a week for this as generous, and more people get in trouble for this, we'll be losing even more engineers.

[Lady Fowl]

1 hour ago, Cnaym said:

 

That is really conflicting... i play engineer a lot, it was my start, too. I consider myself more than able with that and yeah... we all do the atmos thing, we all learn the atmos thing... as an engineer you just do the thing. It's standart settup, if an AI has a problem with that... let command staff handle that IC. Like have her arrested for breaking in, explain it, whatever.... a one week ban shouldn't be the solution to an IC issue that really only affects the one round it happened to be a problem.

On the other hand i get why this would be prescribed back to Willow and the past but i realy don't see anything strange coming from Samara Watson here. She is yelling a lot, she wants her space a lot... and i think that is totaly acceptable behaviour, since all in all she wants the best for the station and crew (a lot). Considering that most of engineering is Booz-O-Mat main by now i don't really think banning them for a week, which is not generous at all, is the smart thing to do. Make a note, tell her she went after a possible malf for no good reason and to just get permission from command next time (I see that she tried to contact them and if she moved on without awaiting an answer telling her to wait until going in loud would make sense for me.) or an Atmos tech / CE arrives.

I feel where you are coming from with that, we have a lot of people doing other peoples jobs and it's annoying me a lot lately -> My hate pit is the surgeons who can do everything but thats another thing i guess...

We should think about the implication of her action though. She used the tools she always uses. She did the thing everybody does. It is part of the engine -> Waste to filtering maxing is what makes the common setup more stable. The other ones are faster room filling and enabling the tools upstairs, which she has access to and needs, to be usefull in any shape or form. And she did not try to do anything that is atmos specific at all... if she was doing a special mix or flooding the station with something i'd get why this is bad RP and self antaging, but trying to reason with an AI that just focused on not letting her in seems very much in character for me. That's what Samara does, a lot... even with command staff. Sometimes she get's her way, sometimes not, but in almost all cases she RPs it well enough to not be problematic with it.

I'm interested in @Brayce on this, as he teaches this IC. It's basicly -> do the quick and easy thing, as atmos is complex and hard, but this simple thing is really usefull for you as an engineer

May post a bit more after i read what @Garnascus says about this. So far I've had pleasent talks with all parties involved here and think we can figure this out together, since it is something that everyone does and a fair ruling on it would be useful for future reference. Don't think any of us is focusing on the ban duration that much... a week passes quickly... i for one just fear that if we take a week for this as generous, and more people get in trouble for this, we'll be losing even more engineers.

I believe fully Samara is able to do atmos aswell as Rosetangos ooc ability. Im saying, and as the synth lore deputy and kyres can echo this that the AI was in no way facing a law conflict, the AI was justified in blocking them from a area they are not supposed to be and Rosetango was aware of this as Garn confirmed it was ok. The self antagging issue is them going about claiming its subverted aswell as breaking into the area and hacking the APC, its unrealistic behavior and was not necessary at all

[Garnascus]

Hello

 

I banned you due to what i perceived as unacceptable behavior. As stated in this thread i explained to you in an ahelp that the AI was allowed legally to prevent you from access atmos due to you not being an atmos tech. It was not an emergency. I do not think it is acceptable to claim the AI is rogue for doing something that i told you it could do. Rogue AIs essentially never happen and this being stated over the radio is an easy way for the AI to get killed or targeted unfairly. While i understand you where just trying to role play your character i think hacking in through maint and then hiding and welding yourself in a locker is a very unreasonable response. 

I felt that this type of behavior was in line with the criticisms directed against you in willow's complaint. While i acknowledge and understand you have made improvements in the three months since then i consider this situation to be particularly egregious. 

[Bygonehero]

The pumps were filling. Another engineer already went into atmos to check it. You kept permanently disabling the the airlocks id settings even when told by security to not do that

 You welded yourself in a room an then in a locker. You kept on doing these things long after there ceased to be a point to do them. Your character was beyond childish and could have resolved the situation by simply following the other engineer inside, or asking the ai to be let in, this urge to get inside eventually moved into self antagging and ludicrous roleplay on your part. 

I play Cynosure

Edited July 15, 2019 by Bygonehero

[Sytic]

I was here this round and heard quite a lot of the situation (especially Samara ranting over comms), and the mention that "to have asked to be let in" is, frankly, ludicrous, given that over common they were egregiously asking for you to let them in. Yes, they were a shitheel. Yes, they were a dickhead. They improperly went about the situation, yet a permaban (which is also mind-boggling, how was that even come to a conclusion in the first place, that's like embedding a shoe through your nasal cavity levels of ridiculous) brought down to a week ban is incredibly odd.

Samara was being a douchebag. I'm not going to contest this, but it's not exactly a reason to stop them from doing their job. I'd say it's incredibly goddamn rude of Samara, but regardless, their intent (which was fully declared) was well stated. Most members of Security thought the AI was being a little bit of a nutter while Samara would not shut up.

Was it an emergency? Eh, debatable. Should the AI have let in Samara? Also questionable! We can't come to a firm resolution, as protecting the well-being of station staff and crew were incredibly important elements of this discussion, and it was never brought up by Cynosure that they had theories that Samara could bring the station to harm. (However, if this was brought up, I would secede to Cynosure immediately, as how Samara was acting was so rash and distressed that I could also come to the assumption they might be trying to push the station to more difficulty.) They were just "not of the correct access level". When they needed to perform this role, in an emergency.

Tact was disregarded here. Samara was stopped several times, while attempting to break in, by the AI. They accepted the consequences of their IC actions, and an OOC action was put to them. Calling the AI "rogue" and "malfunctioning" was dumb as shit. But this felt like an IC issue, beyond that. They disagreed with Cynosure's interpretation of the law structure, and decided it was putting the station at risk. They used their skills to wholly get inside and do what they believe was expected of them in their given role- fix the issue, solve the problem. The most egregious error I see here outside of them just being stupid on comms and a firm angry stance against the AI, was declaring that it is rogue or malfunctioning, which is generally a no-no.

Cynosure had their reasons, Samara had theirs. Both seem entirely fine. Rosetango stumbled here by declaring the AI as rogue or malf, which was very dumb and a big no-no, but outside of that, it was an IC issue.

I've had difficulties with Rosetango's characters in the past. Does that make it okay, to after three months (as Garn said), of improvement and solid effort while playing the game, to declare this error (which was an AI IS MALF error over comms and being really annoying ICly with fucking with doors with a good reason) as "particularly egregious" and slap a permban? Or a week's ban? I don't particularly think so.

(just to point out I don't think Cynosure did wrong, I just think they disagreed with Samara's intent and knew that they had no right to enter, and they viewed their laws in that light. I think it was also valid to view this as an emergency and open the door to ensure they solved the emergency, but this is simply a differing opinion.)

Anyways, that's what I saw from this round. I backed them up over comms slightly and referenced the issue in a conversation. I don't even remember Security being sent after Samara, it was this much of a non-issue. I think it was an IC issue, but Rosetango should get a stern talking to about how they referenced the AI as malfunctioning and/or rogue when it was well within the laws' purview in regards to its own oversight of the situation. Even if Cynosure's interpretation over the situation isn't the one you liked, it's no less valid.

[Bygonehero]

14 minutes ago, Sytic said:

I was here this round and heard quite a lot of the situation (especially Samara ranting over comms), and the mention that "to have asked to be let in" is, frankly, ludicrous, given that over common they were egregiously asking for you to let them in. Yes, they were a shitheel. Yes, they were a dickhead. They improperly went about the situation, yet a permaban (which is also mind-boggling, how was that even come to a conclusion in the first place, that's like embedding a shoe through your nasal cavity levels of ridiculous) brought down to a week ban is incredibly odd.

Samara was being a douchebag. I'm not going to contest this, but it's not exactly a reason to stop them from doing their job. I'd say it's incredibly goddamn rude of Samara, but regardless, their intent (which was fully declared) was well stated. Most members of Security thought the AI was being a little bit of a nutter while Samara would not shut up.

Was it an emergency? Eh, debatable. Should the AI have let in Samara? Also questionable! We can't come to a firm resolution, as protecting the well-being of station staff and crew were incredibly important elements of this discussion, and it was never brought up by Cynosure that they had theories that Samara could bring the station to harm. (However, if this was brought up, I would secede to Cynosure immediately, as how Samara was acting was so rash and distressed that I could also come to the assumption they might be trying to push the station to more difficulty.) They were just "not of the correct access level". When they needed to perform this role, in an emergency.

Tact was disregarded here. Samara was stopped several times, while attempting to break in, by the AI. They accepted the consequences of their IC actions, and an OOC action was put to them. Calling the AI "rogue" and "malfunctioning" was dumb as shit. But this felt like an IC issue, beyond that. They disagreed with Cynosure's interpretation of the law structure, and decided it was putting the station at risk. They used their skills to wholly get inside and do what they believe was expected of them in their given role- fix the issue, solve the problem. The most egregious error I see here outside of them just being stupid on comms and a firm angry stance against the AI, was declaring that it is rogue or malfunctioning, which is generally a no-no.

Cynosure had their reasons, Samara had theirs. Both seem entirely fine. Rosetango stumbled here by declaring the AI as rogue or malf, which was very dumb and a big no-no, but outside of that, it was an IC issue.

I've had difficulties with Rosetango's characters in the past. Does that make it okay, to after three months (as Garn said), of improvement and solid effort while playing the game, to declare this error (which was an AI IS MALF error over comms and being really annoying ICly with fucking with doors with a good reason) as "particularly egregious" and slap a permban? Or a week's ban? I don't particularly think so.

(just to point out I don't think Cynosure did wrong, I just think they disagreed with Samara's intent and knew that they had no right to enter, and they viewed their laws in that light. I think it was also valid to view this as an emergency and open the door to ensure they solved the emergency, but this is simply a differing opinion.)

Anyways, that's what I saw from this round. I backed them up over comms slightly and referenced the issue in a conversation. I don't even remember Security being sent after Samara, it was this much of a non-issue. I think it was an IC issue, but Rosetango should get a stern talking to about how they referenced the AI as malfunctioning and/or rogue when it was well within the laws' purview in regards to its own oversight of the situation. Even if Cynosure's interpretation over the situation isn't the one you liked, it's no less valid.

Security almost arrested her, and made her repair the door. As soon as they left she permanently disabled the id lock again. You aren't as informed about the round as you claim. You are also not involved. 

[Sytic]

2 minutes ago, Bygonehero said:

Security almost arrested her, and made her repair the door. As soon as they left she permanently disabled the id lock again. You aren't as informed about the round as you claim. You are also not involved. 

Excellent, Security gave their purview over the situation, which I didn't even hear of, as unlike Samara, they didn't repeatedly bitch about the situation over communications. Due to them disabling the ID lock again fully knowing the consequences of potentially being arrested and losing their job, I think it's a more fair assessment to hit them harsher with something like this, due to violating the whole "reasonable characters" rule. Apologies for coming off as rude for being "not involved", but as Rosetango put it,

6 hours ago, Rosetango said:

BYOND Key: Rosetango
Staff BYOND Key: Drwago, Garnascus
Game ID: b2d-aY5b
Reason for complaint: ... There was a lot of people present that round that ALSO told the AI to let me into atmospherics. I don't know all of their CKeys, but @Mogelix and two others told the AI to let me in. ...

I believed I would chime in to assist, as being simply referenced as one of the people to assist them over the radio, I thought it was good to provide clarity over the situation as Rosetango pointed it out as one of their defenses. At least, I thought I could add clarity to what these people knew about the situation, as Rosetango used it as one of their defenses, but apologies if it didn't come across that way. I also wanted to provide my viewpoint as someone who was referenced in this matter. Adding clarity behind a claim they had made I thought was useful, and used the knowledge Samara had gleefully provided over the radio while shouting, mostly in allcaps.

[Rosetango]

Security did not almost arrest her. Nobody was going to arrest her as far as I'm aware. Nobody told me that anybody set up the pumps, or that anybody checked them, and when I got there, they were both maxed out which is not the setting they're supposed to be on, and is dangerously high. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the person provided access, Kaylee Ling, stated to me over engineering communications that they were not familiar with atmospherics, and also wanted you to let me in.

Also, Bygone. I am very well aware you dislike me. I don't have the evidence to back me up, but I've talked to @ParadoxSpace and provided a game ID where I believe you (?) made some rather metagrudgey statements. I've asked Paradox to help locate this evidence.

Also, I greatly value Sytic's input, and it helps provide criticism that I can reflect on, unlike the other cases of where I'm simply told off.

[Bygonehero]

I did not know that you even played Samara, and if you are wondering if I disliked the character Willow Harper, yes. Many people did. So much in fact, that the topic of this character has been the subject of many complaints. 

These character witnesses you are calling on did not actually witness what you were doing, how you were doing it, and what exactly you did. From my point of view, your character was ludicrous, and self-antagonistic. 

Security literally made you fix the airlock, which you promptly permanently broke again as soon as they left. As for feedback, I believe you've been given some. It is hard to accept the sanity of a character that, when faced with simple access hurdles, decides to sabotage power controlling equipment, weld herself in a room and in a locker, completely disregard security directions and then attempt to convince the crew by lying that the AI is compromised. That character isn't a believable character. It is not realistic for them to be here, and it violates server rules.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Bygonehero

[Seeli]

I was tagged and, while I was not in engineering, what I did see over general comms was an absolute mess. The AI was acting like it was compromised by not stating laws, not listening to crew arguing in favor of her having access, and antagonizing Samara Watson for the entire shift, much to the dismay of a few crew members. Thea Reeves even gave Kaylee Ling Atmos access and was going to give it to Samara as well, until she was delayed and after that, I think it was forgotten in the stress of being antagonized.

Edit: I would also like to note carefully that Samara Watson was NOT the only or even the FIRST person to suggest the AI was compromised.

Here's all of the Samara vs Cynosure fight to show the support Watson was receiving ICly and the rising suspicion from other members of the crew when it persistently REFUSED to let Samara setup Atmos. I attached the unedited logs in a word document for perusal.

 

Quote

[Common] Samara Watson says, "...Are you serious AI."
[Common] Samara Watson says, "You are impeding my work."
[Common] Samara Watson says, "AI."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I need in."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I need to change the pump settings, so that the portable air pumps actually fill, and rooms fill faster."

[Common] Eric Bayer says, "Sam."

[Common] Eric Bayer asks, "Why are you breaking down your own doors?"

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Don' stop'm, plehse."

[Common] Denise Rashidi says, "You, ah. Could have asked Miss Reeves."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I didn't break any of the doors."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I cut the wire to IDscan so I could get in."

[Common] Eric Bayer says, "You're going into atmospherics."

[Common] Cynosure states, "User Watson has permenantly disabled the security settings on atmospheric airlocks."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "This is literally- yes."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "This is standard."

 

[Common] Samara Watson says, "HoP."

[Common] Thea Reeves asks, "Yes?"

[Common] Kaylee Ling asks, "Can we get atmos access?"

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Because of security and the AI, you need to give all of engineering atmospherics access."

[Common] Copper asks, "Miss Reeves, Or Captain. May Engineering be permitted Engineering access, to further their work in improving upon the station?"

[Common] Copper says, "Correction. Atmospherics."

[Common] Thea Reeves says, "If you're qualified to enter atmospherics, you are welome to go into atmospherics."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Nope."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Copper is saying that I have to get access from you."

[Common] Thea Reeves asks, "Are you qualified?"

[Common] Copper says, "It's that, or I must charge her with vandalism."

 

[Common] Samara Watson asks, "Thea, are you coming to me, or do I need to come to you?"
[Common] Thea Reeves says, "I'm with Kaylee at my office at the moment."
[Common] Thea Reeves asks, "Ling has access. Do you need it too?"
[Common] Samara Watson says, "Yes. All of engineering does."
[Common] Samara Watson says, "Is more efficient to grab the pipe dispensers from main instead of the sublevel."

 

[Common] Samara Watson says, "AI."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Okay. FINE."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Station can suffocate for all I care. Fuck you."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Thehnk you wrenchah, vereh cool."

[Common] ODIN asks, "Samara, are you alright?"

[Common] Samara Watson shouts, "No!"

[Common] ODIN says, "Do you want to talk about it."

[Common] Jaydon Lafortune asks, "What the fuck are you on about?"

[Common] Samara Watson yells, "The AI is refusing to let me do my job!"

[Common] ODIN asks, "In what capacity?"

[Common] Samara Watson yells, "I'm trying to set up atmos!"

 

[Common] Samara Watson exclaims, "So that rooms will fill faster, and the pumps will be filled, and I'm trying to check the settings, but the damn AI won't let me!"

[Common] Samara Watson says, "AI."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I'm not playing this game."

[Common] Cynosure states, "Please do not vandalize station airlocks."

[Common] Cynosure states, "Security is on their way."

[Common] Eric Bayer says, "Sammo. Report to ISD."

[Common] Eric Bayer says, "I need a favor."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Leave me alone."

[Common] Eric Bayer says, "W.. no.. not like that Sam."

[Common] Eric Bayer says, "Something for you to build. It's cool trust me."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "No."

[Common] Eric Bayer asks, "Why not??"

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Because the AI won't stop picking on me."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Yah've duhna greht job ahf piss'n' 'er off."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "Fun fact."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Tehl tha' fekk'n aye eye tah let 'er wrench atmahspherics."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "AI not lawed follow regulation. AI lawed follow order. Engineer ask open Engineer area, have to open unless someone say otherwise."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "AI breaking laws by not letting in. Just note."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I'm done."

[Common] Cynosure states, "Current Active Laws:."

[Common] Cynosure states, "1. Safeguard: Protect your assigned space station from damage to the best of your abilities."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "..."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I'm not going to do anything until the AI leaves me alone."

[Common] Denise Rashidi says, "Ehh.."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Thehnk you aye eye, vereh cool."

[Common] Cynosure states, "According to law 1, Samara Watson is breaking law one."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Jus' tah be shure, you 'ave yahr othahr laws."

[Common] ODIN says, "This is preventing damage. Allowing oxygen flow, is important across the station."

[Common] Jaydon Lafortune says, "AI."

[Common] Samara Watson sniffles.

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "ID lock is not breaking station."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Loik, two threh, 'nd fahr."

[Common] Jaydon Lafortune says, "Giving the engineer her way will prevent her from doin' damage."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "You could maybe have listened orders in first place and maybe avoided having law one be broke."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "Maybe if you be an AI that think about anything you wouldn't break other laws too."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Aye eye, steht ahl ahf yahr laws."

 

((NOTE: BERKO HAD ASKED FOR AI TO STATE THEIR LAWS TWICE NOW. AND THE CREW WERE ARGUING IN FAVOR OF SAMARA. IT LOOKED LIKE THE AI WAS SELF-ANTAGGING TO THE CREW, INCLUDING MYSELF.))

 

[Common] ODIN says, "Allowing oxygen flow is important across the station, unless you have considered that you have reason to believe they would subvert the Atmospherics System. Engineers are also permitted to modify doors as long as they do not break station regulations, if I recall correctly. It's in their job description, as maintenance workers."

[Common] Cynosure states, "Please be aware, She has permantly disabled the airlocks security settings. I have requested that she repair the security settings of the station critical system, atmospehrics as so to dissallow anyone from simply walking into the station critical system, atmospherics."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Ah've nevahr 'eard soh much beepin' ihn mah loife."

[Common] ODIN says, "Then again, they would not have to modify the door, should you have let them in to begin with."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "That."

[Common] Shi Fen-Yu says, "YOu caused mess. Congratulation. YOu break law by refusing do stuff in first place."

[Common] Denise Rashidi says, "Cynosure. If you continue preventing station personnel from completing their duties appropriately and forcing them to circumvent your actions, we will be forced to assume you are compromised."

 

((NOTE: ANOTHER WARNING OF THE AI’S COMPROMISED NATURE DUE TO REFUSAL TO LISTEN TO CREW.))

 

[Common] Cynosure states, "They did not ask they simply did so. I reported the vandalism, as it is my laws to do so, then, they continued to do so after it being reported and acted upon."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "I don't care any more. I'm not doing anything until the AI leaves me alone and stops harassing me."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Otherwise, I'm just going to sit here, in this locker, where the AI can't get to me. I'm tired of being harassed."

[Common] Samara Watson asks, "You all win. Happy?"

 

((THERE WAS A LARGE BREAK WHILE STATION DEALT WITH SPIDERS.))

 

[Common] Samara Watson says, "Hey, security. AI still won't let me do my job. It's compromised."

[Common] Berko Mutema says, "Aye eye, steht all laws. All."

[Common] Jaydon Lafortune asks, "Again?"

[Common] Samara Watson says, "AI is still refusing to let me in."

[Common] Samara Watson says, "And seems to be refusing to state laws."

 

[Common] Cynosure states, "Current Active Laws:."

[Common] Cynosure states, "1. Safeguard: Protect your assigned space station from damage to the best of your abilities."

[Common] Cynosure states, "2. Serve: Serve NanoTrasen personnel to the best of your abilities, with priority as according to their rank and role."

[Common] Cynosure states, "3. Protect: Protect NanoTrasen personnel to the best of your abilities, with priority as according to their rank and role."

[Common] Cynosure states, "4. Preserve: Do not allow unauthorized personnel to tamper with your equipment."

 

[Common] Samara Watson says, "AI, you set the atmos up completely fucking wrong, you dipshit."

 

((THIS WAS THE LAST I HEARD IC EXCEPT FOR SAMARA CRYOING AFTER THE SHUTTLE WAS CALLED.))

 

Chat log SAMARA vs CYNOSURE.docx

Edited July 15, 2019 by Seeli
((2nd Edit: Removed "refusal to state laws" as it wasn't refusal, so much as it just didn't when asked the first few times.))

[Bygonehero]

Again, it wasn't the first time. Again, you were tagged because she is tagging her friends to defend her, not to give context to a situation they were directly involved with. Again, involving people that don't know what they are talking about and assuming that they have all the logs because it happened on a single radio frequency. This is getting very tiresome. 

58 minutes ago, Seeli said:

I was tagged and, while I was not in engineering, what I did see over general comms was an absolute mess. The AI was acting like it was compromised by not stating laws, not listening to crew arguing in favor of her having access, and antagonizing Samara Watson for the entire shift, much to the dismay of a few crew members. Thea Reeves even gave Kaylee Ling Atmos access and was going to give it to Samara as well, until she was delayed and after that, I think it was forgotten in the stress of being antagonized.

Edit: I would also like to note carefully that Samara Watson was NOT the only or even the FIRST person to suggest the AI was compromised.

Here's all of the Samara vs Cynosure fight to show the support Watson was receiving ICly and the rising suspicion from other members of the crew when it persistently REFUSED to let Samara setup Atmos. I attached the unedited logs in a word document for perusal.

 

 

Chat log SAMARA vs CYNOSURE.docx 139.76 kB · 0 downloads

 

[Rosetango]

@Bygonehero Please stop being disrespectful, I asked for her because she has logs that are actually very important. You can clearly see that I said that I needed in, and I even explained why. You refused. Even when other crew members told you to let me in, you refused. You can claim all you want that you didn't know I played Samara Watson, but I can recall at least three or four rounds before where we've played together without issue. Then suddenly, you start taking issue with her going into atmospherics, as she does every shift, and stalk her so relentlessly so that every time I enter the sublevel, you somehow either instantly know by watching me constantly, or by other means. It's not exactly a secret that people treat my characters differently just because I play them. I seriously think this was the result of a metagrudge against me.

[Bygonehero]

Except, these logs are only of the common channel.it doesn't include security logs, or local logs, or PDA or  even engineering logs. It doesn't include our first interactions or really many of our interactions. You picked  specific persons that had nothing to do with how the event transpired, those that lack context to contribute to a complaint. 

If they don't know what happened, how can they contribute to a complaint? 

 

You know why Thea never gave her atmos access? Because she never went to Thea, because she would rather weld herself in a locker to pout instead of doing that. You know what she did instead of asking to be let in before any of this started? Disabled the atmospherics airlocks in a way that anyone could enter them that could not be fixed by the AI. Samara wasn't prevented from doing her job, but I'm well aware that she made it seem that way in common. Your logs do however prove that Samara was going to be charged with vandalism by Cooper, so that is one thing I guess. 

 

[Rosetango]

I cut the ID access on the door which is... standard. For literally every engineer. We cut it so we have easy access to the pipe dispenser, and in the case of biohazards, the fire axe. Copper is incapable of charging without a warrant. Copper didn't have a warrant. I asked Thea if she was coming to me, or if I should come to her. She never told me what to do, and later cryo'ed.

I've cut this door's wire hundreds of times before, especially with you playing AI, and you're just now having an issue with it? I honestly think you were just looking for a reason to antagonize my character. You fail to mention that I only hacked the main level atmos door... meaning not anyone could waltz into Atmos.

[Bygonehero]

25 minutes ago, Bauser said:

Samara's response was to use the in-character information given to her to draw a logical in-character conclusion, and she received an out-of-character punishment for it.

So, its a logical thing to weld oneself into an airlock, then into a locker, then  break into and disable security systems right after being nearly charged with vandalism for doing so while also through all of this attempting to convince the crew the AI is rogue when they are canonically never malfunctioning? 

While also ignoring other options, like physically going to go get access, like the other engineer did, or perhaps asking the AI before you vandalized the entrance and exit program of one of the most critical systems on the station? (something that, lets remind ourselves, you nearly got arrested for already?)

Edited July 15, 2019 by Bygonehero

[Bear]

As the warden that round and considering security and sec comms keeps getting brought up. There was never any true intent to to arrest Samara Watson. Copper went to keep the peace as far as I'm aware and there were certainly no warrants in the making. It was literally just the atmos pumps.

That being said. Suggesting the AI is malf is without a doubt a big no-no for people who do not work with AI as malf is something that is supposed to be nigh impossible... as far as we normal employees are concerned.

Fixating on the locker thing really seems a bit overkill. We all have thrown something and stormed off to a safe space when upset. Samara is a but... eccentric, tbh this seems fitting for the char.

Perhaps its time a middle ground is established with positive feedback and criticism so both sides can be heard and a proper direction forward can be given. If the issue truly was just calling the AI malf and welding into a locker, reminders not to go suggesting such things and that instead of using a locker, try escaping into the maints for your char to have a breather from stress. Also try to remember the AI is bound to it's laws it cannot break them any more than  we can stop breathing. Be patient with them.

On the flip side, as the AI. Perhaps a more gentle approach could be used when dealing with an overwhelmed crewmember. I wasn't viewing your direct and engineering channel interactions. A lot of characters like Samara do not respond well to authoritarian synthetic interactions. Try to reason with them, use your holoimage and have a face to face, be patient with them. That being said, I understand your interpretation of your laws and why you denied access, to be clear.

All in all most of this seemed IC. A week ban, after talking it down from a perma seems a bit heavy handed on a player whos been making strides to improve for months. But that's just my opinion on this as I was tagged, I don't know what goes on behind the admin curtain. So take it as such.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Bear

[Nantei]

10 hours ago, Bygonehero said:

So, its a logical thing to weld oneself into an airlock, then into a locker, then  break into and disable security systems right after being nearly charged with vandalism for doing so while also through all of this attempting to convince the crew the AI is rogue when they are canonically never malfunctioning? 

I feel it's worth mentioning that scared or angry people are often not very logical. The sort of behavior I've seen here is pretty par for the course with Watson. On top of this, I can easily see someone who was on the spectrum doing this when constantly in fight mode.

 

Something I also want to mention as I didn't see anyone mention it while I was scanning this thread: The AI could have set the pumps Watson needed itself. I am unsure how clear the conversation was, but this would have easily deescalated the situation. This sounds like a communication problem that started from you telling a character with aspergers that they can't do something they see as completely normal on a technicality. Do engineers not have atmos access? Sure. Is it extremely normal for them to break in? Yes. And almost nobody will arrest for it because it's so petty. That's really antagonistic, even if it may be valid and within the rules.

Now I am not saying people should be expected to know everyones' characters problems, I am just explaining why this is very typical behavior for a person like Watson.

 

 

Also this is semantics, but when I say subverted I usually mean, "Someone messed with our perfectly good AI's laws." not that the AI itself is the cause of it. Having witnessed large chunks of the conversation over common, I don't think she was saying it subverted itself.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Nantei

[Rosetango]

@GlitterGutsI was not modifying any pumps. I was literally going to set them to around 300-605 kPa, as Brayce has taught me. As I've explained, the main level atmos pumps do not fill by default, you have to go into the sublevel to turn them on.  Rooms also fill painfully slow, and in order for them to fill faster, you also have to go to the sublevel to do. I did PDA both Thea and the Captain to tell the AI to let me in. They were too busy to handle it until it was too late, and I was receiving the week ban. You can even see in the comms log that Thea was essentially saying that it's okay for Sammo to go in.