Sec job hopping restrictions

[AmoryBlaine]

So, basically. Officer to Warden, Warden to Officer, Officer to Detective, Detective to Officer, Detective to Forensics, Forensics to Detective, Warden to HoS, HoS to Warden. It's very tiresome seeing the same characters jump all over the department. Is there any way to we can better regulate who can go where? Officer to Warden, Warden to Officer- that makes sense. They're Brig Officers after all. Investigative to Security, is not so reasonable given their duties and requirements are seperate. The closest a warden has to do with investigative is know where to put evidence and how to store it properly. I notice a lot of Detectives and Forensics jumping from their position into Officer, or Warden and then back again. Frankly, I don't think it should be allowed. Voice opinions, please.

[Wigglesworth Jones]

I see no issue with Detective to Forensics or Forensics to Detective; they're both investigative roles, and I don't really have a problem with Warden to Officer.

[Brutishcrab51]

Warden to Officer.

HoS to Warden/Officer.

Detective to Officer (given Detective is, training-wise, Officer+)

Officer to Warden.

This is what I've seen. This seems fine to me. This is fine to me.

[Nantei]

Security Officer has extremely low requirements. There's almost no reason someone couldn't qualify. Warden also can go for an applicable forensics degree, to investigatives to Warden also makes sense. Job hopping rules are for people making absurd hops/powergaming, and that's how it should stay. 

[Snakebittenn]

This is basically an epidemic. The most I'd be okay with is Officer/Warden and Detective/FT, but we need to stop one job's requirements unlocking everything short of HoS.

[Cnaym]

Completely agree with Paradox here, it seems like every officer is also able to do every other job, which is hilarious when it plays out ingame. It's not that we have 4 Officers, 2FT/D and a Warden.. we frequently have 6.5 Officers which is really annoying to deal with as antag or staff.

I get that the qualifications are low, but no employee would be allowed to fly all over the department like that. It either means they know it all, or you don't need to know a thing for any of those jobs.

[Nantei]

5 hours ago, Cnaym said:

or you don't need to know a thing for any of those jobs.

Because you don't. Sec officer has extremely low qualifications, as I said. You wouldn't be allowed to—or even likely consider—come in as more than one job title to start with. This logic can apply for anyone that plays any job within the same department, and we had this conversation regarding Heads of Staff. I don't see this as any different, and if we're willing to suspend disbelief there, we shouldn't be treating Security any different.

This is just an electric boogaloo of this idea: 

And I don't find it any more compelling here than it was there.

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Nantei

[Scheveningen]

Gonna have to agree with other reasons stated here, which mostly pertain to officers having investigator-level knowledge instead of being entry level boots/grunts. Curtail sec officer job hopping pls.

[Skull132]

To play the devil's advocate. Officer isn't a low requirements job. Or rather, it shouldn't be viewed as a job that anyone and their grandmother can do at a moment's notice. There's a mountain of difference between "You can train any rando to do this job", which is roughly where Sec Officer is as a job, and, "Any rando can do this job at a moment's notice". There's an entire academy and a cadetship period to becoming an officer. So it takes time to get the required skills to become an officer. Furthermore, after passing these trials (which detectives and other auxiliary roles may or may not do), a sec officer would likely need regular training to keep his memory fresh and up to date with new procedures, regulations, etcetera. Due to all of this, the case of a detective or FT becoming a sec officer should not be common, as they likely have more important things than regular sec officer drills and refreshment training to dedicate their time to.

[AmoryBlaine]

I mean, honestly, what this is for me is I just absolutely hate seeing new Sec players jump around the department willy-nilly. Established players usually have months between their character's promotions or additional training in order to become a Detective from Officer, or Warden from Officer. But we get new people who join in as Officer, then Warden, the Detective. And currently you can't really say "hey, that's not reasonable." because it's technically allowed in our current system as long as they're old enough, so these players learn that jobhopping is okay, which detracts from the immersion, in my opinion. Like, I'm fine with Noir being an Officer and Detective because they've been working with NT for forever, and are an IPC. But there's so many instances where it's just like- why, are you jumping from Detective to Officer, and then to Warden? You haven't even learned your initial role, yet you've gone to taking up multiple others all under the same character all within two weeks?

[Nantei]

So we should change the policy because of new players who seem to already be disregarding the believable characters rule? This is killing a mouse with a nuke. Make a player complaint (Repeated bad behavior over multiple rounds is better for PC's). I don't want to get hit in the crossfire because of a couple bad eggs, and that's definitely what will happen here.

[Brutishcrab51]

6 hours ago, Skull132 said:

To play the devil's advocate. Officer isn't a low requirements job. Or rather, it shouldn't be viewed as a job that anyone and their grandmother can do at a moment's notice. There's a mountain of difference between "You can train any rando to do this job", which is roughly where Sec Officer is as a job, and, "Any rando can do this job at a moment's notice". There's an entire academy and a cadetship period to becoming an officer. So it takes time to get the required skills to become an officer. Furthermore, after passing these trials (which detectives and other auxiliary roles may or may not do), a sec officer would likely need regular training to keep his memory fresh and up to date with new procedures, regulations, etcetera. Due to all of this, the case of a detective or FT becoming a sec officer should not be common, as they likely have more important things than regular sec officer drills and refreshment training to dedicate their time to.

I would usually agree with this, but the Detective page on the wiki says that a pre-requisite for the job is completing your Cadetship. Would this not indicate that a Detective is qualified to be a Security Officer on own?

Alternatively, it's an oversight that may need to be fixed. FT/CSI is of a different breed, though. They don't have Cadet/Officer origins.

[SatinsPristOTD]

A policy isn't needed to enforce this. A server rule is in place to enforce it.

it isn't a believable character to go from detective, to forensic tech, to officer, to warden all within the span of a few shifts/days/weeks. Honestly, even the NT red tape and paperwork involved for this sort of thing would take close to a month. (We know CCIA loves their folders of folders of paperwork. They work like the Army at this point lol)

So... just start ahelping this sort of thing? "George is a 25 year old man that has played every job in sec, barring the HoS. It isn't believable. Can you speak to him?"

It takes ten seconds of your day, the actual problem people get handled, and we don't have to nip honest-to-god interesting, well RP'd character arc's in the butt. Detectives CAN do officer work. They shouldn't, unless it's an actual emergency, but they CAN do it.

I'd argue the only one that really should come with a bit more is the FT. CSI work was the first job I ever thought about doing (way back when Satin was a high schooler). I'd never tell you I could do detective work or be an officer. CSI's have a scientific/medical approach to the department, and lifting prints without smudging the tape, analyzing blood samples, and doing autopsies isn't something the average officer should be able to do.

[Skull132]

48 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

I would usually agree with this, but the Detective page on the wiki says that a pre-requisite for the job is completing your Cadetship. Would this not indicate that a Detective is qualified to be a Security Officer on own?

I literally addressed this in my post:

48 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

Furthermore, after passing these trials (which detectives and other auxiliary roles may or may not do), a sec officer would likely need regular training to keep his memory fresh and up to date with new procedures, regulations, etcetera.

Yes it might be a requirement as far as goalposts go, but it doesn't mean that they are up to speed on the required material later on.

[AmoryBlaine]

So what is the current standing on this sort of thing? Like, as of right now. Just so we know where we're at.

[Kintsugi]

Generally speaking I'm of the opinion that limited job-hopping within a department, while not necessarily the ideal, is reasonable - In this case, having a character that hops between detective and security officer is fine. Or detective and FTECH. Or officer and warden - but I think the limit is one other job you can reasonably perform. Going from detective to officer to warden to FTECH as the same character is inexcusable. Just as is it is okay for a cargo technician to be a miner, I think a security officer who can be a warden is perfectly within reason.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Job hopping typically happens because someone has a "main" character that didn't get into the limited, high demand slots available. As a HoP main I have it bad too, but there are a lot stricter rules on command job hopping.

They shouldn't job hop if you ask me. Detective and forensic tech are different jobs for a reason, and one person taking both slots whenever they can, on top of the other job hopping going around, has created an Old Guard situation where the same handful of sec officers are never NOT in the department at any one time.

[SatinsPristOTD]

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

 and one person taking both slots whenever they can, on top of the other job hopping going around,

I'll add to this that it's absolutely ANNOYING to hear "Yeah, I'm an officer, FT and detective. I can do that crime scene" while sitting around bored AF as the FT.

If you don't get your slot, don't job hop in the department. Let other people have fun too. It's... not always about your character. I'm not trying to be rude about this, really.

But job hopping just so your main gets to be around simply takes the spot from someone else that really did want to join. It's just not respectable to switch around every round.

It's just a matter of people not ahelping a situation that is breaking the believable character rule.

[KingOfThePing]

Personally, I agree with Jackboot 100%. In my opinion, you should not jobhop at all. I know it's been established that it can make sense, but it always throws me off when I see, for example, an EMT being a miner the other shift. Which is okay, as I was told. It's fine, if others can suspend their disbelief with that but I personally find you just should not. I can understand that you do not want to make a new character for ever job, really, nor do I expect everyone to only play one role for eternity. But it's hard sometimes, seeing established characters suddenly do something completely different. It's just more noticable in security. Alas, I don't think any change is nessecary. Cases one finds iffy can be ahelped and investigated, which then can be judged on a case-to-case basis.

[Sytic]

This is easy. If you have the qualifications to a job but aren't that job, don't do that job. Maybe if you're a Visitor you can help out (benefit of the doubt and all that) but seriously, just don't do it if you're not the job. If you're not an FTech and arguably not a Detective, don't do CSI work. If you're not a Detective, don't handle the interrogations. If you're a CSI, just stand away and let conflicts happen, only jumping in if shit is EXCEEDINGLY important.

If you're jobhopping within reason (due to qualities about your character or similarities of workplace) I expect you not to act like an ass and to let everybody have fun. That's it.

[PTiberiusM]

My recommendation: Just apply an IC way of looking at it. Did your HoS get demoted? Because that's the only reason I should see him running around as a Warden or anything else. This should apply across all the Command roles. Unless you want me to think that your character got a big demotion, don't play them as working at a demoted position. QM now hauling ore around? Demoted. HoP is bartender? Mega demoted. HoS is a forensic tech? Who did he piss off? It makes absolutely no sense, IC, for elevated/promoted characters to play demoted/lower ranking ones. It should be considered OOC in IC if you do this, because OBVIOUSLY you are doing it because you didn't get the one you really wanted.

OOC: You have 50 character slots. 50. Didn't get HoS? Load up a different character that can play Warden and then go play Warden. Same across all the other departments. This is not hard.

[Crozarius]

Personally, selfishly, in my opinion it really sucks when I get beaten to the FT slot by someone who invariably has Detective and Security Officer in their lineup. ICly you're hired to work at NT in one position, you don't just get seconded around on a shift to shift basis. TBH the preference system should be removed entirely, and people should just ready up Yes/No for their chosen job and only their chosen job.

[Nantei]

Right, so as I predicted, we're retreading the head of staff policy suggestion. And I would encourage dismissal here on the grounds of that similarity. The arguments are essentially identical, and it was already decided that, while it is more realistic for 99% of characters to only have one role they play ever, it's still better to suspend our disbelief and let people play multiple roles so long as it's reasonable. If you think someone is breaking the believable character rules, you should ahelp and/or make a complaint. A policy change is unnecessary, the believable characters rule already covers this.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Nantei

[Doxxmedearly]

Frankly I'd love to see job hopping more strictly monitored. I still think it's goofy that heads of staff can come in as a non-head position in their department, but that's not for this thread. It's particularly noticeable in security because the slots are highly contested, but it's not the only place it happens. It just sucks because the type of people who do switch between detective/officer and FT/officer are usually the ones you'll find firing their revolvers or toting around looted guns as detective/FT and clearly they just want to play them as officer slots 5 and 6. It's not just a new player thing; I'd argue that it's more of an old guard problem. It's difficult to ahelp these situations because currently there's a thought that "If you're qualified for investigations/warden, you're qualified for officer." I'd argue that Skull's reasoning is pretty on-point for why that's not a great idea. People are just looking at minimum requirements for jobs and going "Yep I meet those" without considering things like IC training and keeping up-to-date on policy, procedure, etc. And again, while this is most noticeable in security, it's definitely not the only place I'd prefer to see these standards applied.

[Pratepresidenten]

I agree that a clear definition of allowed roles should be set in stone. As it stands right now, you can play two roles in security. This applies for everyone, HoS included.

So ideally, you would be limited to:

Investigative divison: Detective/FT

or

Security division: Officer/Warden

Command in general is usually forced to pick ONE role they do within their respective department that they can play if their command slot is taken, or they just dont feel like command.