Taking Down Communications Should Require An Ahelp

[Faye <3]

I have yet to participate in a round that could be considered enjoyable when antags take down telecomms, and general consensus with others is that it is not fun to experience at all regardless of intent or roundtype. It takes away agency of communication + harms the round of others who may not even be involved with the current antag situation. This affects say,- miners and xenoarchs especially. Nothing else involves the entire wholist like this short of nuking the station outright. Taking down telecommunications should be considered on the same level of seriousness as sabotaging the supermatter or sabotaging atmospherics to be weaponized. It needs to be escalated well, and not the first thing on the antag's bucketlist. A round where antags put a bomb within tcomms, and rather than blowing it up they engaged in negotiation with the station threatening to do so comes to mind in terms of 'good TComms use'.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Faye <3

[greenjoe]

I agree. It should be protected from being targeted by antags like the engine and atmos are

 

+1

[Estoytrucha]

I'd like to agree. Either this, or make the fix ridiculously easy. It doesn't just affect security and command. This means a miner or anyone else EVA is completely alone for what can be hours.

[Scheveningen]

Agreed. There is no reason to hit NT-Net especially, because the entire station depends on NT-Net to function. Cargo won't work, the code level cannot be elevated, you can't communicate with centcomm except via fax machine (well, probably not, because of the quantum relay), and suit sensors basically fucking stops functioning so medical has to depend on eyewitnesses to report wounded persons.

I actually want to play the round for two-to-three hours. Please stop antagonists from speed-running the fucking round because they feel like sabotaging critical station systems without any actual escalation will somehow make for an interesting round. Hands off the essential station systems until the peak of the round, for crying out loud.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Scheveningen

[Ramke]

As someone who tends to be the one that has to crawl up there to try to fix it, and with how weird telecomms code is, this would be really appreciated personally.

Low level sabotage like cutting the power is fine, but as soon as people start blowing equipment up, that's usually a 30min+ job rebuilding equipment and connecting everything, praying that it ends up working because of how unreliable it is sometimes. It's on the same level of sabotaging atmospherics (though not as damaging to health as it is to fun), and repairs take forever. It doesn't help that antags usually loom around to make it impossible.

[Sheeplets]

Yes please. This is beyond annoying to play around and it's been happening really frequently recently.

[Cnaym]

Fully agree. The code crashes often enough that even admins cannot get it back to work and the server lag is unbearable once the gas code up there goes down the shitter. Give them an ionospheric interference for a couple tc that causes the radio blackout for a minute or two and call it a day. 

[Carver]

I'd rather just see it made easier to repair or something. I'm against these strange, arbitrary meta-protections of infrastructure - especially this one, that unlike atmospherics and the engine, does nothing to stop people's movement and ability to take part in the round. Taking the example of if a miner is feeling lonely, they can get back inside - and this will be a side effect of the outage, impacting supply and research. Bounced radios exist just for this particular occasion.

Making it easier to fix without resorting to a wiki guide is the best I could recommend, instead of taking away my immersion by making more and more mechanics off-limits.

[Caelphon]

Neither +1 or -1. Yes, it should be restricted, but also just switching it off is fine. Why do antagonists have to destroy everything? 

[Cnaym]

2 hours ago, Carver said:

Making it easier to fix without resorting to a wiki guide is the best I could recommend, instead of taking away my immersion by making more and more mechanics off-limits.

The problem is that the massive wiki page even jokes about the TLDR I just gotta fix this quckly part. It is not engaging or complicated, just a part of the game you will rarely stumble upon even if you play RD or CE. The fact that you cannot reliably repair it is my main issue, since false feedback is worse than none. A good midle path here would be having the general radio relocated to the AI core. It would give antags a simple (Telecomms has way too many turrets that only kill engineers) target which would hinder departments  but not ruin a core function for them for the rest of the round.

[WickedCybs]

Can count on my hands the amount of times a lack of comms proved engaging, so I do agree with this. Telecomms sabotage just ends up being annoying and accomplishes little other than the station and its antags becoming far more willing to just straight up bulldoze through each other to get it over with faster.

The things with protection? Tend to have less of an effect on the round. In the vast majority of cases if a supermatter crystal explodes in the engine room, engineering is a million miles away from anything important and the biggest consequence on everyone else is hallucinations for being on the same level. Even if it doesn't explode, it's extremely easy to save and it blares out warnings in a gradual process. A teslaloose will almost always fizzle out, luck has to be in its favour to not get captured by a beacon or just running out of things to give it energy after it moves up a z level into space. A fire or explosion in atmospherics? The fire won't really affect the pipenet, so the rest of the station isn't in danger. An explosion? Filling rooms probably won't be possible anymore until rectified. An extra safety measure is each gas tank being surrounded by void, so it won't leak out into the main compartment. Atmospherics is fairly basic and mobs use very little oxygen and output very little waste gasses. 

Obviously, ICly an SM explosion and such is worse. It's just more bearable to deal with that then it is to deal with another long trek up to telecomms. Back when the roof zlevel still existed, I would see engineers simply break in from the telecomms lounge to bypass the multiple arrays of turrets, saved time and the round.

[Carver]

32 minutes ago, Cnaym said:

The problem is that the massive wiki page even jokes about the TLDR I just gotta fix this quckly part. It is not engaging or complicated, just a part of the game you will rarely stumble upon even if you play RD or CE. The fact that you cannot reliably repair it is my main issue, since false feedback is worse than none. A good midle path here would be having the general radio relocated to the AI core. It would give antags a simple (Telecomms has way too many turrets that only kill engineers) target which would hinder departments  but not ruin a core function for them for the rest of the round.

I've always been a supporter of making fixing things CM-levels of trivial where the game itself tells you how to fix something, you just need to bring the tools yourself. If telecomms was adjusted to be very new player-friendly to fix, so no amount of OOC experience would be needed, then there'd be very minimal problems in the counterplay of disabling it.

[Scheveningen]

I'll add something I forgot to mention: I do not mind the concept of being forced to use station bounced radios -- though I wish bounce radios could 'listen' and broadcast different channels at once, perhaps with a limitation. I mind when PDAs, computers, everything gets incapacitated and the entire round is shit for those trying to fix the situation as a result. Not all my characters are looking for the first opportunity to escape with their waifu into maint and ignore everyone else in the round. Killing NT net functionally stops many jobs and makes the concept of playing almost pointless, because one's job is often part of the character.

The antag can temporarily disable or mess with the radios, but please do not target the quantum relay. It's lame.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Scheveningen

[Faye <3]

I personally really like Cnaym's idea of giving traitors a tool from their kit that induces tcomms blackout for a minute or two. It would still allow antags to take down comms, though the time limitation encourages coordination and planning while discouraging' silencing comms to start a TDM w/security. 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Faye <3

[Camellia]

Can certainly agree with the blackout bit but to play devils advocate here,

The amount of times where people go:

[ROLE] to [LOCATION], [REASON] isn't engaging so I can get antags on why they disable telecomms.

Maybe if it was nerfed just to touch headsets, sure I guess.
 

[MEDTECH]

Intercoms and stationbound radios still work when the radio servers are out, and they are everywhere. But, yes, the machinery is a little bit complex (NTSL2+ and all that server things), and using explosives should be restricted, but not the sabotage itself by every other means, like depowering the SMES, cutting the wires, turning off the breaker of the APCs, etc.

For the NTnet, it's probably the most easy machinery to repair. Science can print one, or engineering can find the boards in tech storage iirc. Maybe that, like the radio, you can restrict it to "turn off only"? I don't know, but I can understand that the station consoles being turned off entirely is crippling for the players.

In short, I have to disagree with you. Information is the biggest advantage the station have, and it's logical for it to be a target for the antags.

Edited January 21, 2021 by MEDTECH

[Cnaym]

I mean the code for ionospheric interference is already in as random event. You could buy a device which has a couple charges or can be used every x minutes to not make it spamable. Making things easier is always a double sided sword. Some of us enjoy complex mechanics, others just want a roleplay platform with minigames. I am more on the side of every mechanic made easier as having lowered player skill levels in the past, but that's up for taste I guess.

The way I see it most people would have handheld radios be more user friendly and the NTnet and sensors to not shit themself as soon as the radios go out. Which should be easy enough to change.

In my personal opinion having the code more reliable and removing the turrets would be best for both sides. It allows for easier access for antags and does not punish the poor solo engineer as much. The current meta seems to be stealing the spare, disabling a single machine inside telecomms and having nobody able to enter the area for repairs since there are at least two lethal turrets blocking the path now. As for the code side, making it not require specific atmos values should solve most of the instabilities and also remove the lengthy process of filling that remote part of the staition.

[Shenaanigans]

4 hours ago, MEDTECH said:

In short, I have to disagree with you. Information is the biggest advantage the station have, and it's logical for it to be a target for the antags.

You're correct that gunning straight for tcomms to put the station in the dark and unable to communicate nearly as well is a very powerful tool for an antagonist whose goal it is to cripple the station, but is it engaging? Don't forget that the point of antagonist actions in round is to create a narrative for the round and make things fun. It's not to win. This is the same reason why we have rules against powergaming and why most players roll their eyes at off-station antags who break into the captain's office for the spare at 00:10 round time; acting in a way that is strictly strategic from an IC perspective does not at all mean that what you're doing is fun for other people.

I personally hate when antagonists take down comms, because if you're not engineering going on a quest into maintenance to fix it then the only way you're engaging with that is to sit around barely able to RP because you have no idea what's going on on the rest of the station. I'd be behind the idea of making tcomms less esoterically headache inducing to fix, sure, but I'm definitely behind putting that kind of sabotage in line with the SM/atmospherics. +1

[Carver]

5 hours ago, Camellia said:

Can certainly agree with the blackout bit but to play devils advocate here,

The amount of times where people go:

[ROLE] to [LOCATION], [REASON] isn't engaging so I can get antags on why they disable telecomms.

Maybe if it was nerfed just to touch headsets, sure I guess.
 

This is also reasonable, the comms blackout is the valuable part of the infrastructure. Knocking out computers is just kind of niche when it comes to offering any benefit to antags, nothing would be particularly missed if that part were just removed.

 

Additionally, I also heavily disagree that knocking out comms is remotely harmful to RP or engagement. Get the fuck out of your department and walk around, use the intercomms, grab a bounced radio - there are a plethora of mechanics that enable you to keep in touch instead of needing to cling to your headset.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Carver

[Arrow768]

Moving to policy suggestions, since that isn’t something solvable by code.

Edit: "that" being the suggestion by the OP to require admin approval to take out tcoms.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Arrow768
Specified what "that" is that isnt solvable by code

[Skull132]

Hard disagree with making a policy issue out of this.

Making things require preemptive administrative approval is really interuptive to game flow and tends to create a situation for antags where they're extremely discouraged from touching these tools. Yes, there are cases where this is used, but consider it a bug -- not a feature to be expanded upon.

More reasonable options include:

• Lodge a player complaint if the comms blackout was somehow really lame.
• Nerfing comms blackout as Camellia noted.
• Making comms systems easier to restore (?).
• Limiting how much of the comms system is directly damageable (and accessible), and giving traitors some other tools to cause either local or global blackouts.

[Faye <3]

3 hours ago, Carver said:

 

Additionally, I also heavily disagree that knocking out comms is remotely harmful to RP or engagement. Get the fuck out of your department and walk around, use the intercomms, grab a bounced radio - there are a plethora of mechanics that enable you to keep in touch instead of needing to cling to your headset.

Don't understand this myself. What sane person that isn't security or maybe Command goes "oh,- we've heard gunfire earlier, and now comms are totally blacked out. let's go have a look around the station!" That's like, horror movie tier thinking,- the kind of stuff you yell at the screen telling the character 'oh god are you stupid why are you doing that' the entire time they're investigating. Station-bound radios are honestly not great, and no one really uses intercomms. It isn't as though I think that antags should be entirely unable to kill tcomms or induce a comms blackout - I do like the idea of a traitor item or something that disables it for a period of time -but I and a lot of other people are extremely tired of rounds where ninjas kill tcomms by 30 minutes in - if not sooner, frankly - , and then lurk around the area to prevent engineers from trying to fix it if they haven't outright completely destroyed it. Maybe holding it at the tier of the SM / Atmospherics may be too much for some people, but there definitely needs to be added restrictions / changes made.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Faye <3

[Doxxmedearly]

Agreeing with skull's ideas and analysis here. I'd prefer tcomms to just be less easy to access and damage, while expanding the means for antags to temporarily circumvent or disable NTNet things. 

Radio jammers are readily available for TC and can be crafted. AFAIK they also disable suit sensors in their radius. We can give antags more tools for this sort of thing, even non-TC antags (Cultist runes, vamp powers, etc). 

Destroying it is, as people are saying, a really good way to stop the round from being engaging. Perhaps if someone did it with the intent to do something interesting with it, it would be fun (Horror-game stuff, etc.) but I've seen maybe two rounds made enjoyable by tcomms screwery in three years. 

[Carver]

1 hour ago, Faye <3 said:

Station-bound radios are honestly not great, and no one really uses intercomms.

Though they're rarely used, this is what they're here for. Bounced radios do fine as long as you're not on the sub-level or somewhere remote, which is their own downside - but they're rather trivial to use and function as well as a headset if you're willing to abandon either department radio (not needed if you're in your department) or common radio (rarely needed if you're out of your department). If you're uncomfortable keeping them on all the time, you can use :l for holding a bounced radio in your left hand, :r for right hand, and (though this one I haven't used in years, so may be defunct) :i for an adjacent intercomm.

1 hour ago, Faye <3 said:

Don't understand this myself. What sane person that isn't security or maybe Command goes "oh,- we've heard gunfire earlier, and now comms are totally blacked out. let's go have a look around the station!" That's like, horror movie tier thinking,- the kind of stuff you yell at the screen telling the character 'oh god are you stupid why are you doing that' the entire time they're investigating.

Horror movie characters are deathly curious, and if you are just as curious, nothing stops you from having a look. It's also fairly trivial to run away from literally any threat bar fires and hyperzine-chugging antagonists, as long as you're not in a voidsuit or similar.

1 hour ago, Faye <3 said:

It isn't as though I think that antags should be entirely unable to kill tcomms or induce a comms blackout - I do like the idea of a traitor item or something that disables it for a period of time -but I and a lot of other people are extremely tired of rounds where ninjas kill tcomms by 30 minutes in - if not sooner, frankly - , and then lurk around the area to prevent engineers from trying to fix it if they haven't outright completely destroyed it. Maybe holding it at the tier of the SM / Atmospherics may be too much for some people, but there definitely needs to be added restrictions / changes made.

If the ninja is camping comms repeatedly you can pretty safely ahelp that. My suggestion earlier in this thread was to just make comms easier to repair (mechanically), so that new engineers aren't hopeless and old engineers don't have to bring up some obnoxious wiki guide - repairing anything should honestly be simple, especially as there's no particular value in camping telecomms for a good antagonist. As for items, said traitor item already exists, the radio jammer and it's ghetto variant - but it's rather useless outside of murderbone or the ever-classic 'kidnapping the Captain who's idling in their office'.