Departmental Security

[Mogelix]

2 minutes ago, Zundy said:

Why not remove sec offices and have a desk, chair, locker +whatever's needed in the departments? 

... because there's nowhere to put it. It's a security area. It needs to be secure. A office is secure. Besides. I ICly, know nothing about science. If I'm stuck in science and watch people do shit I don't understand... you don't need a muscleman. The times you do need a muscleman (testing on lings) you just give a guest past or escort the officers.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Mogelix

[Snakebittenn]

7 minutes ago, Mogelix said:

Except they aren't. They'll condescend you. You have to play a uber-likeable coffee boy sec character to not just be ignored, And unfortunately, human beings, aren't all like that.

Or. You could just start with a sec radio/department radio headset. Corporate would consider this. They'd give you that. I don't want to base mechanics on lore but don't nerf them this ridiculously.

I've physically played with it. All you have to do is be any kind of nice instead of being Gruff Officer.

Edit: Also, I'd rather not any authority be taken away from the department heads in question. HoS on red alert, sure.

Edited April 9, 2019 by ParadoxSpace

[Zundy]

Don't need a muscle man at all unless there's antags tbh. I'm gonna give new sec a whirl asap and get a handle on how it feels.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, ParadoxSpace said:

I've physically played with it. All you have to do is be any kind of nice instead of being Gruff Officer.

Why are you invalidating characters who are not sociable and friendly?

[Snakebittenn]

Just now, Senpai Jackboot said:

Why are you invalidating characters who are not sociable and friendly?

Because it's what's worked for me? I'm pretty sure if I just acted like an asshole nobody would want anything to do with me.

[Scheveningen]

They are not really nerfed that much to start with. Cannot tell you how many times it has been of particular difficulty to me to have a large security team when I play HOS. When there are more officers in play, there are more independent variables to consider. Those independent variables each have varying ways to handle situations and also each have their own bus factor dependent on the situation. During specific round-types, they are more difficult to hold accountable if they break Corporate Regulations (because they become indispensable, rather than disposable as they start the round), and often when you do have time to hold one officer accountable, something else on the station is happening and you're one man down for removing the problematic officer from the department. Large teams are an absolute pain to handle as HOS, especially during high server population counts. Because of the fact the security department wasn't compact, it was difficult to manage and hold accountable.

The sec department is far more compact now. It is a challenge to deal with group antagonists now, this is true. I don't even think crossfire deserves to exist as a game mode, because it adds far too many individual antagonist variables at once for it to be balanced with all populations.
(Ever be the only security on crossfire? It's garbage, just like the game mode. But that's just my opinion.)

Nonetheless, the challenge involved with dealing with groups of antagonists is, as they say, part of the game experience. You are not expected to 1v8, so don't make decisions that put you into a 1v8 situation. Security is nominally expected to have situational awareness and more game sense than any other role in the game in order to play the job effectively, let alone be able to roleplay in that position properly. If you find yourself being unable to deal with this, perhaps it's best to stop playing security if it upsets you that the job is challenging.

[Mogelix]

4 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Why are you invalidating characters who are not sociable and friendly?

He has a point, if you act like a asshole, people ignore you for being a asshole. Thing is, you have to get into peoples face to make them even consider your existance as a human bean. And, funnily enough, theres middle grounds between, 'asshole character' and 'the nicest guy you'll ever meet character.'. Your not part of their department. They'd talk to you if you were. But they don't. So unless your character is actively bending over for their department, they don't exist for that department.

All conversations I've had were confrontational, and I was just minding my own business.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Mogelix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

3 minutes ago, ParadoxSpace said:

Because it's what's worked for me? I'm pretty sure if I just acted like an asshole nobody would want anything to do with me.

Your personal experience should not be used to inform your design choices in these matters. You are unnecessarily limiting character freedom. You are using hostile design to sideline and marginalize characters who follow personality traits that you find unappealing.

With a lack of a shared radio network, these officers can effectively be isolated and marginalized. These are issues that people who are playing these new jobs are openly saying are happening to them.

I reject your conclusions.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Mogelix]

1 hour ago, Mogelix said:

1. As a departmental security officer, I don't get access to most if not all of the brig, which will make lone sec just this little bit worse. I also can't access security voidsuits in EVA. Oh look, I ALSO CANNOT ACCESS PROCESSING.
Seriously? Why would you deprive officers of the ability to process. Think a little. Not every rounds gonna have a fully stacked security team.

2. The brigs 'calm RP' places have been removed. The bathroom I quite frequently used to change my hairstyle, and I know many used it as a place to easily AFK. I also remember many fun RP interactions between officers occurred in the breakroom.

 

Can we expand on these points?

Additionally, the uniform locker was removed. So when I spawn with loadout items that override my start items, I literally cannot obtain the blue sec slacks. I have to bring my own uniform (which cannot be that uniform, which i actually like), which just... complicates shit. Why did we change the brig so much? Why did we gank depsecs ability to access said brig? What does that accomplish but weaken a already balkanized and weak sec?

[Spider]

i love how the detective/warden/cadets cannot communicate with security officers, my favorite part of the update

Edited April 9, 2019 by Spider

[Scheveningen]

18 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

Your personal experience should not be used to inform your design choices in these matters.

Personal experiences are how we gather feedback. There is no feedback without injecting personal experiences into discussion. You are essentially insisting people not present their experiences, which are crucial for gathering different perspectives and thus paving the way for a proper conclusion. See yourself out of the discussion if you have no other way to constructively participate.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

17 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

You are essentially insisting people not present their experiences,

No, I am not:

17 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

which are crucial for gathering different perspectives and thus paving the way for a proper conclusion.

The main point of my posts was defending those who's perspectives are being sidelined by the people who have implemented this feature, and arguing on the hostile game design being used.

17 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

See yourself out of the discussion

No.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Carver]

Major feedback:

• Lack of Sec Radio is cumbersome.
• Lack of access to processing, the firing range and so forth is puzzling. I couldn't even open the windoor to the Warden's desk, or access the sec lobby rechargers.
• Lack of spawning with a crowbar/maglite as we previously had access to is fairly disappointing. I can live without tear gas.

Minor feedback:

• You can't put armbands over exowear, such as the various departmental jackets and security jacket. This means it's a little more annoying to make yourself identifiable in regards to the department.
• You have to go to the arrivals checkpoint to access the uniform stuff, since the brig locker room is gone.
• The departmental lockers don't have any cuffs in them so you're limited to one pair on spawning.

 

I otherwise loved it. Would like to see another test if the various mapping errors and other things were tweaked.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

2 minutes ago, Carver said:

Major feedback:

• Lack of Sec Radio is cumbersome.
• Lack of access to processing, the firing range and so forth is puzzling. I couldn't even open the windoor to the Warden's desk, or access the sec lobby rechargers.
• Lack of spawning with a crowbar/maglite as we previously had access to is fairly disappointing. I can live without tear gas. 

Minor feedback:

• You can't put armbands over exowear, such as the various departmental jackets and security jacket. This means it's a little more annoying to make yourself identifiable in regards to the department.
• You have to go to the arrivals checkpoint to access the uniform stuff, since the brig locker room is gone.
• The departmental lockers don't have any cuffs in them so you're limited to one pair on spawning.

 

I otherwise loved it. Would like to see another test if the various mapping errors and other things were tweaked.

The return of the radio and adjustment of the mapping issues may go a long way to addressing most of the risk of marginalization. I'm not sure without seeing live tests with the return of their communication as to how much this would solve that issue, since there is still the aspect that they can be sidelined by the department they are a part of. There is also the ancillary risk that returning comradery with the main security department will push this more into the risk I outlined in the beginning wherein Command authority over the department officers breaks down as the officers default to the main security channel.

Ignoring the bad faith arguments presented by Schev from now on, there is nothing more for me to address until an update with these concerns is pushed.

[Carver]

2 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

The return of the radio and adjustment of the mapping issues may go a long way to addressing most of the risk of marginalization. I'm not sure without seeing live tests with the return of their communication as to how much this would solve that issue, since there is still the aspect that they can be sidelined by the department they are a part of. There is also the ancillary risk that returning comradery with the main security department will push this more into the risk I outlined in the beginning wherein Command authority over the department officers breaks down as the officers default to the main security channel.

Ignoring the bad faith arguments presented by Schev from now on, there is nothing more for me to address until an update with these concerns is pushed.

Overall I loved the change in atmosphere this brought, but some form of communication, even a handset radio locked to the sec channel would be handy (So it's cumbersome but possible to open communications). Main complaint is just the small little losses of access (firing range and the armoury/warden desk windoors, also processing but that may have been purposely removed) and the lack of crowbar/flashlight.

[Arrow768]

Alright, I cleaned up a few posts that dont really contribute to the discussion.
Stay on the topic and argue about / present your opinions regarding the PR in question.
(Arguing weather or not someone has played a major or minor part in the implementation of that suggestion does not contribute to the discussion)
 

[Scheveningen]

19 minutes ago, Carver said:

Overall I loved the change in atmosphere this brought, but some form of communication, even a handset radio locked to the sec channel would be handy (So it's cumbersome but possible to open communications). Main complaint is just the small little losses of access (firing range and the armoury/warden desk windoors, also processing but that may have been purposely removed) and the lack of crowbar/flashlight.

I don't really find the headset issue to be much of a hindrance. If you really think you need interaction with the core sec department that badly you just go ask an officer to switch the bounce radio to the security frequency. If you need extra supplies you get up to go find them. SS13 also follows the formula of walking around to go on a treasure hunt for bare minimum essentials to ensure you have the best experience possible. If I'm ever an officer I'm most comfortable with a first aid kit (advanced or not, makes no difference), crowbar, two-to-three pairs of handcuffs, flashlight, filled oxygen tank (preferably a double capacity tank), gas mask in box with no breath mask in it, and all the typical stun tools in my belt or the webbing. I always carry a lunchbox full of stuff too in the event of round-start or even mid-round hunger or thirst.

[Arrow768]

Since there seems to be a trend of posts that do not contribute to this discussion:

• Argue or present your opinion regarding the suggestion and keep it civil.
• Avoid logical fallacies
  • Do not argue about the motivation of a person (specifically mentioned since that happens quite often)
• Do not insult other people
• Do not come up with conspiracy theories (While it is entertaining to read, there is no anti-sec conspiracy)

[MissNatcula]

OMG.
No.

I've played two full rounds and two sorta, half running around looking around rounds and I have to say this is a pile of crap and a mess. It seems rushed, not thought out and totally hinders what I THINK was trying to be achieved.

What I THINK was trying to be achieved and many others agree is that security needs to stop sitting around in the brig all round and go and roleplay with others. But why not split up medbay then too? Have 'medical check points' where a in house department is on stand by at all times and the 'cmo' and 'surgeon' sit in the 'medbay' for anything not minor. NO? While why did you do that to security then? It would be the same thing. Now, change 'cmo' to 'hos', 'surgeon' to 'warden' and 'medbay' to 'brig'.

You split up security. Ruined communication and forced people into situations that dramatically effect their play style AND character. I could see this MAYBE working if you SLOWLY introduced elements of this change as a whole. Not dump an entire; massive change and expect anything but horrible feed back.

I play sec main; Hi I play Lin the warden and like ice frappes, and already have I saw a huge change in my own play style during it all. I no longer can issue gas masks to officers; I can't even mail them because the disposals and mail system is not set up and I also can't go to the check points and deliver them by hand because I don't have access to the check points, I can't communicate to officers at all with out going there in person and no one comes to the brig ever now that they can report and directly to their in department security officer. So I sit on the cameras all round watching disaster and unable to do shit about it.
- I see some one getting murdered? Can't tell the department officer looking over it on a secure network. 
- See the department security officer the one getting murdered? Can't issue another officer to aid with out them having to abandon their own post; if you wanna pull the realistic shit.
- Getting killed in my prison by a hostile prisoner? Guess I'll die cause no one has access to help me.

At what point did anyone think this was at all balanced or ok to make live even as a test? The cameras in the check points are not even linked to the camera consoles. Its literally the perfect killing spot; ironically, cause no one has access to the camera feed in the check points but maybe the AI. Every round I saw at least one check point busted into but I touch on that later which actually is a sorta good thing.

Now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you some simple things that need to be fixed before I continue onto everything wrong.

- Cameras need to be linked to the camera viewing list thing
- Warden should have access to the check points
- Meeting room should be back for HOS use as a place for security to meet up properly
- Department officers NEED sec com access
- Some sort of basic holding cell right for department officers in case of lack of warden or hos active on small staff shifts
- Medbay check point needs to be near the lobby not up in virology isolated. Suggest condensing lobby/emt area to make room.
- Department officers need to be listed under security and not misc. It is confusing to find them on high pop rounds.
- There needs to be a meeting room spawn for every one so sec has a chance to meet and greet other sec personal at start of round.

Now onto everything I personally find crippling and awful about these changes and somethings I do like or could grow to like.

Lets start with the roles. There is one role slot for each department then a 'general' officer role. I honestly think this is restricting and garbage. I understand wanting to make officers get out and about but this is not the way to do it. People will fight over those roles and no one wants to be engineering department officer and be forced to hang out in a dead, isolated area all round. Where is the rp being improved in FORCING sec mains to PICK one specific department then FORCING them to remain there cause its the only place they have access to?

Security as a whole is a team. Like any other department. They are sec. This has been taken away; completely. The HOS themselves can not even communicate with their own officers. Infact its so bad it almost is like department officers are not even sec anymore. Whats the point of HOS now? Commands personal body guard? Because they can't even command their own department cause half of it is not even on their coms.

Even IF department officers were on sec coms its not balanced at all. Every one is saying it. Antags now have to worry every second about a sec officer with FULL ACCESS raining down on their vamp succing. No more luring people into an area you feel safe cause you have access and sec doesn't. ESPECIALLY if you are in a department HIGHLY FAVORED for department officer picking. Like medbay. This effects all gamemodes. No more cult hiding in cargo's warehouse with the cameras cut, no more ninja dropping into research to steal some data with out an officer instantly busting in, no more ling luring people into the psychiatrist's office. Actually, no more rev rounds pretty much cause unless you convince the department officer of your department to jump on board you are getting shut down.

The lack of access is disgusting. Sure as a department officer you have access to your department, but you can't get into the brig anymore. No warden? No HOS? Get lost kid cause you locked out. I mean as warden I could not even access the check points. I'm the manager of wares. In charge of ensuring officers have what they need and I can't access their check points. One because the doors I can access wouldn't open and two, some are in the departments I lack access to.

Map changes to the brig I didn't mind. I do feel it a tad unrealistic how both the brig and medbay are massively huge for really no reason. I loved how condensed it was and that isolation was across from the cells, interrogation was right next to processing. However. I do think having the meeting room spawn is the best and locker rooms is a must to flow with this. Perhaps move isolation to take up the place where the 'offices' are right now and keep a hall going up and around them to the locker room and meeting room. I've had some good little meeting roleplays and you also get to see every one on duty at the start of shift start.

Positive of the 'department' thing is the check points. I've wanted check points FOREVER however I did NOT want them to be forced to be used. I think security should have the option of using the checkpoints if they want. Its a VERY nice place for hanging out as a officer and having options. Also the gear in the lockers are be something antags can try to bust in to for easy; but some what risky, free sec gear. Thats right. OPTIONS and balance. Or officers being assigned to them by the HOS when one is active. I do think they are a tad big and should be condensed down. 3x7 squares is MASSIVE. Should be no bigger then 3x4 max. Also medbay's check point NEEDS to be ground floor near the lobby. The other department checkpoint locations are ok in my honest opinion.

I understand that people outside security want to rp with security; I mean we are awesome~, but forcing us to hang out in your departments is not how to get our attention. We rp, a lot. You may not see it but every round I'm rping with officers, and prisoners! You may think we are valid hunting, no rp, dick heads but we look at medbay for example and see the same thing. 'omg look at those medics sitting all in their lobby doing eachothers hair and ignoring every one'. Don't take away my rp buddies. You can always visit the brig for the right, or wrong reasons.

Thats my thoughts anyways. The event of its test run now seems over but I wanted to express that yes; a lot of it I didn't like, but some of it can be applied that does improve things in a good way.

[Scheveningen]

2 hours ago, MissNatcula said:

The lack of access is disgusting. Sure as a department officer you have access to your department, but you can't get into the brig anymore. No warden? No HOS? Get lost kid cause you locked out. I mean as warden I could not even access the check points. I'm the manager of wares. In charge of ensuring officers have what they need and I can't access their check points. One because the doors I can access wouldn't open and two, some are in the departments I lack access to.

I read more than just the above paragraph, but I suppose the testimony alone does indicate this won't work out without a lot of infrastructure to keep communications streamlined and tidy.

But we'll see. Perhaps the disadvantage is better the way it is, perhaps it isn't.

[ben10083]

Here are the problems I currently see with this suggestion:

1. No sec channel - Why should dept. security be separated by other security? When organized antags or hard to catch antags appear, communication is a must, something where intercoms of bounced radios is a major liability.

2. Authority - Why is HoS not in charge of any of the department officers? What benefit is it for the RD or CE to be their boss instead? All I see coming from this is the RD ordering the officer to go somewhere (as if the officer would not listen regardless) or for them to ignor any reg violations or to "back off" any of their buddies they don't want charged.

3. Warrants - Who does them now? HoS can't because they can't even talk to the person (announcing to the world that you have a search warrant for cargo is a horrible idea), and I doubt the captain will tolerate being forced to always do warrants.

4. Lowpop - without a full sec team, what do you do if a crime happens and there is no general officer/dept officer for that department? Simple, you are doomed. There should never be a job where if it is not filled the entire department they are in is screwed (No, the entire medical or engineering department being absent doesn't count)

5. Brig Access - Why does dept. officers have to be so aggressively out of security? They cannot even process criminals, meaning if a general officer or warden is not there the criminals cannot be processed and have to go free.

 

Overall, although I understand this suggestion has good intentions, this is not the way we should go about it.

-1

[KingOfThePing]

Alright, I am not a security "main" by far, but I have played it a bit lately and yesterday I experienced my first departmental security round. Well, half a round. I was the supply officer.

 

Positives first:

- The offices are cool. I don't know exactly why, but these little isles of security throughout the station gives the Aurora a nice touch. A bit like the surface checkpoint.

- Being on the department's channel was cool. I introduced myself to the people, told them if there are any problems I am on their channel and they can call me, all that was pretty laid back and nice.

- You can still leave your department. You are not obliged to stay inside it 100% of the time. No one had a problem with it, really. That was also pretty alright, in my opinion.

 

Now the negative points. These are mostly bugs or things that I believe should be changed. I know it is a test merge and it exists to find out how to tweak things, so don't take these points as anything but pointing out some flaws:

- Officers should still have access to the department's channel. Period. There is really no reason or IC logical explanation for them to not have.

- I would remove the lockers with security gear from the offices. I always saw the locker at the checkpoint as unnessecary and questionable, the same applies to the department offices. Just give the brig a nice big locker/shower room like, for example, police stations tend to have. Having so much security gear scattered over the station is nothing a Risk Advisor would deem okay.

- Fix the wiring and power supply problems. I know this is an obvious one and not intended, just pointing it out again.

- Give security officers normal brig access again. Or, alternatively, give them a possibility to process any suspect in their offices (I don't know how that would be achievable, but it's only a suggestion). It makes no sense for an officer to not be able to process someone and it will make lowpop rounds horrible for the officers.

- This one will be hard due to space restrictions but consider it: Move the medical security office away from the upper level. All other offices are on the main level, this one should be too. Somehow. It isolates the officer in medical, in my opinion.

 

That's all I can think of, right now. It's not bad, just the current merge build has some problems and naturally, people have to adapt to it.

[SatinsPristOTD]

We actually did have the issue of "no warden, No HoS" when I was Captain. It meant the Captain of all damn people had to process criminals. It was really.... shit.

The biggest concern I have with this is the test merges were meant not only to test the map/code, but see how well it fit with the gameplay of Aurora. The execution of the new offices and Brig are so poorly done, that this right out of the gate has a bad taste in everyone's mouth. I'm really hoping the feedback here is taken into consideration and this whole concept gets a second chance.

[Zelmana]

3 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

We actually did have the issue of "no warden, No HoS" when I was Captain. It meant the Captain of all damn people had to process criminals. It was really.... shit.

The biggest concern I have with this is the test merges were meant not only to test the map/code, but see how well it fit with the gameplay of Aurora. The execution of the new offices and Brig are so poorly done, that this right out of the gate has a bad taste in everyone's mouth. I'm really hoping the feedback here is taken into consideration and this whole concept gets a second chance.

Why would I want to, as a HoS main play, when my job duty is:

Oversee the Warden, which is a minimal duty job that is getting the armroy together and documented and processing.
Oversee investigations, which can run smoothly and optimally without much guidance.
Oversee officers only during Red Alert.

I would be doing what I do when I play that character as a visitor- sit down by the Kitchen speaking with Anya and anyone who wants to roleplay. 


This update kills HoS, and if you are of the opinion that this does not kill the HoS position, it severely numbs and nullifies it to the point where they do less leading than "the unofficial Command" aka Quartermaster.

[Faris]

I'll start by saying that I'm alright with either concept, so retaining regular security or switching to departmental security is fine for me, though the latter would require a better implementation before I'd really be satisfied with its execution. 

 

So here's what how I envision this implementation would be ideal.

1- Authority: On code green until blue, the relevant departmental staff and the Head of Security can both have leadership over the departmental officers, they can work together whereas say the RD has an officer to assist in security matter along with the HoS who is able to provide insight from their expertise. I feel like completely shutting out of the HoS from the departmental staff would cut out a lot of their present duties, making the role a bit lackluster. I much prefer that the Head of Security has the authority to be able to check on these officers, enforce standards and manage. On code red, the authority of the Head of Security should have the say over security matters 

2- Communication: Provide departmental security officers with the security frequency in addition to having the frequency for the department they are responsible of.

3- Access: Provide the Head of Security with access to those offices. I'm unsure if this is the case with every office, but I recall trying to enter two offices and being unable to do so. Furthermore, it is important that departmental security have access to vital airlocks of the security department. I'm unsure if it's an oversight or intentional, but should the department lack a HoS/Warden, then it makes the aspect of processing individuals or managing the brig extremely problematic. 

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by Sharp