[FEEDBACK] Removed AI tracking

[geeves]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7745

 

The AI can no longer track people at all. Nor jump to their position when they say something.

 

Feedback goes here.

[GreenBoi]

Like Xander said in discord. Maybe tie it to Suit Sensors, otherwise this would hurt AI in several non-validhunting ways. Sometimes you just don't know where the person is, and now you won't even be able to tell if they're in maint or not with this, unless you check sensors- which not everyone has maxed.

[Nantei]

I don't think jumping or tracking is particularly useful for validhunting. The agent ID is a 3 cost item that most traitors will buy due to its extreme utility and cheap cost. Mercs and raiders get one for free. The only people who should really be getting locked down by this are lings, vamps, and cultists, all of which have powers that let them get around it fairly easily with a bit of planning that they should be doing anyways. 

So who does this really hurt? Pretty much exclusively innocent interactions between the AI and crew.

[Pratepresidenten]

I like the idea, although maxed suit sensors should allow for automatic tracking as it normally does.

Besides, if you dont have sensors on, thats on your head!

[niennab]

I haven't played AI yet but I imagine this might induce headaches for the AI player when it comes to opening doors.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

3 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

I like the idea, although maxed suit sensors should allow for automatic tracking as it normally does.

Besides, if you dont have sensors on, thats on your head!

This is a good idea, as it allows antagonists to more easily dodge the AI while only looking slightly more suspicious than normal.

[BurgerBB]

I don't like this as an AI player. Not because I can't hunt antags, but rather because I can't keep track of players who need assistance. I would have to manually find their location using the shitty AI controls and performance issues which I do not want at all because that takes an excessive amount of time and is absolutely torture.

I'm just going to get yelled at by players who I can't find  fast enough. This is not a good PR and does not address the problem of AI.

[BurgerBB]

Like finding players isn't the fucking problem at all. Like just sit down and think about this. I'm an AI player and my immediate reaction to counter this is to just find an antag to track and stick with tracking them because I cannot spend my attention elsewhere finding other people who need help because that is wasting 20 seconds of my time trying to find them.

[Skull132]

That 20 seconds may be sufficient for an antag to bolt far enough to avoid getting spotted. It'll also make visually hiding/disguising yourself more powerful. Just as a thought.

[BurgerBB]

2 hours ago, Skull132 said:

That 20 seconds may be sufficient for an antag to bolt far enough to avoid getting spotted. It'll also make visually hiding/disguising yourself more powerful. Just as a thought.

In many cases it isn't. Average case scenario they'd be caught in another room. I've actually done AI rounds with antags where I intentionally set a 60 second timer to the moment where I spot an antag to report and deal with it. In about 70% of cases they'd be in the same spot or doing the same thing.

[geeves]

I'm not 100% sold on the idea of allowing the AI to jump to someone with suit sensors, since it's randomized, it could be set to max and you wouldn't even know. That's a can of worms I don't want to open. If someone is injured, they should call out their location. If they can't, navigate to the CMC and find their coordinates, then go to their location.

An idea that was posed would be to allow the AI to jump to non-specific areas, such as "Engineering, Medical, Security" and such. That seems like a cool idea, but not something I want to implement with this PR, perhaps in a follow-up if this one proves too punishing.

Yeah, it might be a bit more difficult for the AI to open doors, but it also prevents people from just going "AI OPEN DOOR" the whole time. They'd need to call out their location. Or, use a holopad to ring you up to their location. Kinda cool, huh?

[GreenBoi]

AIs can already jump to general locations. Actually, they can save a specific location to their cameras and jump back there later. This feature is incredibly underused, but right now it allows you to save the location of the antags, check a different call, and jump back.

[Gangstafary]

This would backfire quickly when you need a door opened by the AI, either cause they can't find you or won't bother to look around looking for you now they can't fastly do that.

As an usual AI player, tracking is what makes you able to be present, assisting at around 3 places at the same time. Without tracking that'll be reduced to 1, which in tension moments will end the AI being able to heroically save the day. Not necessarily wrong, as an AI you must overall let players do thing themselves and you shouldn't chastise yourself for not being able to be everywhere. Again, while overall I don't mind, people is going to be pissed at some totally-non-validhunting issues this is going to cause, both non-antags AI players and crew.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Gangstafary

[KingOfThePing]

While this probably comes from a good intention I think this is too much of a "nerf", if you want to say it like that. AIs are meant to be something like omnipresent and should have tools at their disposals no one else has, one of it being the ability to quickly track/find people who are in camera range. Removing it would make the AI too much of a human, if that makes sense. Things would take too long, finding people, opening doors, such things. Things an AI is expected to quickly do. I wouldn't remove their ability and I also wouldnt tie it to suit sensors. In real life, an AI would be able to oversee the entire station at once. The fact that our players are, well, not machines but humans already limits them in that regard.

[Nantei]

17 hours ago, Skull132 said:

That 20 seconds may be sufficient for an antag to bolt far enough to avoid getting spotted. It'll also make visually hiding/disguising yourself more powerful. Just as a thought.

Better ways to accomplish that which don't make it more difficult to interact with normal crew members. Agent ID card already makes you immune to tracking, you can add jump to it if it doesn't already for some reason; that would probably be an oversight more than anything. Similarly I have a suggestion thread for this very problem of cameras.  AI can't really bolt you into a room if they can't see you, at least not without a fair amount of coordination from others. Looks like the reception has been positive, just needs a coder.

14 hours ago, geeves said:

Yeah, it might be a bit more difficult for the AI to open doors, but it also prevents people from just going "AI OPEN DOOR" the whole time. They'd need to call out their location. Or, use a holopad to ring you up to their location. Kinda cool, huh?

So the solution to doorknob is... make it more difficult? I don't find that cool at all. I don't find the idea of trying to figure out where someone is so I can open a door particularly great. I get what you're trying to say in that people have to put more effort into getting the AI to do said doorknobbing, but I don't think it improves the interaction at all on the AI's part, and especially not for the crewmember. If the crewmember is a newer player who doesn't know the map very well, there will be even more issues.

 

In my mind, a good nerf to the AI shouldn't hinder interactions with normal crew members. Giving antagonists better tools for handling an AI is far superior to making it more difficult for the AI to help normal crew members.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Nantei

[HighAdmiral]

Antags already have access to tools that make them impossible to track, if they choose not to use them that is their choice. This only hurts the actual purpose of the AI, which is to help the crew.

[StationCrab]

This would be an absolute headache for the doorknob core. No thanks. -1

Add more tools to conceal yourself from AI tracking, don't remove a feature. See the digital camo suggestion for one idea.

[SierraKomodo]

As someone who's recently been playing AI, please no. The amount of lag I start getting after the first 30 minutes of being in round makes it nearly impossible to navigate the camera as an AI, and by the 1:30 mark the only way I can navigate is by jumping to people because trying to move the camera causes a lag spike that jumps me to the edge of the map.

[Seeli]

Not a fan of this, as it will add extra stress to AI players, as it will make helping people/opening doors even more of a pain. Maybe a headset that cannot be tracked instead? Traitor/antag item, or a setting in headsets so anyone paranoid can turn it off?

[Bear]

Gunna have to -1 this. It is essential to AI gameplay when it comes to airlocks and doors during an emergency. Especially if suit sensors are on max.

If this is for antagonists then perhaps make the agent ID untrackable?

[GreenBoi]

Agent IDs are already untrackable, just turn on Electro-Warfare (which is on by default, actually)

[sonicgotnuked]

Just remove the track from list function so you can't just look for names in the cameras to find. Otherwise, suit sensors and radio tracking are fine.

[BurgerBB]

Most of these ideas are bad. AI tracking should remain untouched and instead there should be ways for players, non-antag and antag, to cover their face easier.

 

I mean, maintenance was supposed to do this but you guys don't like giving maintenance to anyone.

[Screemers]

I'm against removing that function from the AI too, that will cripple AI capabilities so much, it will be near impossible to play.

Just for example, the classic "Help" in common chat from someone without a sensor, it sounds a bit stupid that the AI would have to listen to reports or search all the station level by level to find that person, IF that person could be find in camera range.

But, an alternative that could be acceptable would be to remove all names that are not on the manifest from the tracking menu. That could reduce the Meta issues where you just jump to strange name on your list without really crippling the AI capabilities.

[SatinsPristOTD]

Some decent suggestions to fix the AI's ability to mess with antags was gave about a month ago, and it didn't involve nerfing the AI this hard.

Honestly, this is a fairly uncomfortable nerf to the players, not just the "AI".

-1