[+1 DISMISSAL] Remove the detective's sidearm entirely

[kyres1]

What the title says. It has gotten a little ridiculous that detectives still have the ability (and, let's be honest here, the expectation) to pretty much one to two-shot antagonists with arterial bleeding, bone fractures and worse. They are no better than a fifth security officer at worst and a lingering, ever present(but not quite as an officer) threat at best. They have full .45 lethals on code green. It was already insane that they had the .38, and the .45 is pretty much just an upgrade in magazine capacity. God forbid you're anything squishier than a Human or lack bulletproof armor, because in this case, you are astronomically fucked by bone breaking brute in just a single shot.

Total ammo is pretty irrelevant when all you need to do is shoot a target once and they receive round-ending wounds, whereas you can facetank magazines worth of bullets to the chest and you can expect speedy and certain medical response.

Edited April 21, 2020 by MattAtlas

[Kintsugi]

The .45 was a nerf. They have less ammo overall. Anyway don't do this please, I know I'm a detective main and all but I like the gun, it is very comfy to have. Punish people who misuse it.

[GreenBoi]

I'm all for this, but if people want to have a sidearm as Detective- it should be a taser. Detectives having any pistol that's lethal without being a proper officer is pretty goddamn dangerous by itself, but a taser is harder to abuse besides the rare chance of it causing cardiac arrest.

[Aticius]

This seems like a play issue. People who play detective in any capacity that involves shooting the bad guys probably isn't doing something right.

 

Giving them .45 Rubber, or even .45 Flash if you hate them to pieces seems more justified than this.

[Boggle08]

Just give them rubbers instead. If you think that the detective is just another officer slot, remove an officer slot.

[canon35]

Give them a stun revolver like we've always been saying we should but never fucking done. Stuns, looks cool. If detectives need to arm up the chance to use the armory or cargo remains. 

[GreenBoi]

Oh yeah, stun revolvers are a lot better....assuming they don't actually stun easily- but they're still a better option, and prevent ez-valids.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

13 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

The .45 was a nerf. They have less ammo overall. Anyway don't do this please, I know I'm a detective main and all but I like the gun, it is very comfy to have. Punish people who misuse it.

Compact .45: Seven shot magazine+one extra magazine=14 .45 rounds

.38 Revolver: Six shot cylinder+two extra cylinders=18 .38 rounds

 

To reload my compact .45 I have to press Z and insert a new magazine. I can always eject my magazine to see how many bullets it has, and if I need more bullets my gun is compatible with the rest of security's ammunition.

To reload my .38 revolver I have to press Z to eject all my .38 rounds, insert my new autoloader, and then shoot. I cannot check to see how many live bullets are left in my cylinder without ejecting every single bullet. If, god forbid, I run out of .38 rounds I need to find a hacked autolathe to get more rounds.

I have seen the lethal rounds of the detective's .45 abused a myriad of times, and can testify that they absolutely stomp the shit of antagonists in with their ability to cause arterial bleeding, shrapnel, and bone fractures on code green.

There is no reason for the detective to have lethal round when they're so powerful. They're just a fifth officer at this rate, and one that escalates from a flash to round-ending .45 rounds at the drop of a hat.

Edited April 6, 2020 by NewOriginalSchwann

[canon35]

9 minutes ago, GreenBoi said:

Oh yeah, stun revolvers are a lot better....assuming they don't actually stun easily- but they're still a better option, and prevent ez-valids.

From what I remember they're just tasers with a extra shot and you can throw in a shotgun stun shell to reload. I have not tested or used them in some time, however. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by canon35
Changed "extra slot" to "extra shot"

[Peppermint]

I hate it. It encourages frontlining detectives far too much, and the round ender 500 has been a meme for ages.

[furrycactus]

I suggested this once before.

Didn't really go anywhere. However, I still agree with removing their sidearm. Giving them rubbers just drives them to use their gun more because they think "oh its not lethal now so i can use it like taser", and the reasoning that they need it to defend themselves from antags is ridiculous, because by that reasoning, every member of command would have a revolver with lethals too.

 

[Doxxmedearly]

As someone who plays detective somewhat frequently and is responsible with the sidearm, I would hate to see it go... But I also understand that it gets abused. 

However, while detectives do not (or rather, absolutely should not) go hunting antags, I would say that they should have some semblance of self-defense like security does; they're expected to be out and about talking to people, tailing suspects, or otherwise doing potentially dangerous investigating. That said... they do not need lethals. I do not need lethals in my sidearm at round start. A stun revolver is a cool idea. Though... I do understand the hesitation to give them non-lethals, as they'll probably use their gun more and join hunts. It's already eye-rolling to see CSIs and detectives arming up like officers 5 and 6. 

It is not a great situation and unfortunately once again we have to design around people who abuse their toys. And while I and some others can use them responsibly, I can name a few who just really abuse it.

I'd personally prefer a stun replacement, but I will not oppose a removal, either. 

[Carver]

The gun is there so he's not easy to kill. Stun weapons are so trivially useless that they wouldn't work, you need a genuine deterrent against murdering the only person who can properly catch a stealth antag.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Abusing the firearm is already against the rules. Enforcing that is all thats necessary.

-1

[N8-Toe]

just slap the shitters, IC and OOC. we do not need to babyproof every role. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

On 06/04/2020 at 08:58, furrycactus said:

I suggested this once before.

Didn't really go anywhere. However, I still agree with removing their sidearm. Giving them rubbers just drives them to use their gun more because they think "oh its not lethal now so i can use it like taser", and the reasoning that they need it to defend themselves from antags is ridiculous, because by that reasoning, every member of command would have a revolver with lethals too.

 

Several command members have a lethal weapon on spawn. Hop, captain, HoS, and i believe the RD. 

[geeves]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8632

[Pratepresidenten]

3 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Several command members have a lethal weapon on spawn. Hop, captain, HoS, and i believe the RD. 

Detective isnt a vetted, whitelisted role.

EDIT: Cant multiquote, nice. But as for guns, only the worthwhile heads have a stun/lethal sidearm. RD is not included here, unless this was added the last month?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Neither is the Warden. And the Warden has a gun and can open the armory and hand out lethal rifles. Therefore your concern for the detectives capacity to kill should also apply and remove the wardens firearm and access to the armory.

Unless there is a reason the detective specifically is an issue with having a lethal weapon?

Edited April 8, 2020 by Marlon Phoenix

[Pratepresidenten]

The warden kinda follows the same principle as command. They have access to a place with tons of guns, and they routinely handle prisoners. Although its relatively easier to police wardens as they're meant to mostly stick around in the brig and they're usually not out toting guns unless shit is going down. But I dont think a 7 shot burst of laser from their egun is capable of killing their target or cripple them beyond help like ballistics do, it will not shatter your bones and rupture your arteries as far as I know.

But I do see your point.

[Boggle08]

The title of this thread should really just be "replace the rounds in the detective's gun with rubbers."

I don't see why the detective can't have a rubber gun when the entire department is walking around with one in their pants, but I've seen the lethals cause mishaps before. People often forget the gun is even loaded with angry stuff, and they can cut rounds short/escalate too fast like what happened with Kyres.

[Kintsugi]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/8634

I have created an alternative to Geeves' PR

[Cnaym]

Am all for it. Might switch the perception and play of detectives to someone doing the talking instead of the shooting. Even during the revolver times I always wondered why the detective still grabs the shotgun or laser rifle. Imho a mentality issue that the removal would at least try to correct.

Don't get me wrong, they can still grab a rifle, but on code green they cannot suicide bum rush the antags as badly anymore. Stun revolver makes thematic sense and is a neat tool, would love to see it replacing the lethals.

[Scheveningen]

I'm not sure how I feel in these cases. I'd rather not see the detective be defenseless, I'd also rather not see them with a shitty clowngun for the most part, and I'd also rather not see them with a firearm with loose cannon destructive potential either. And I'd also rather not see the detective with LTLs either, particularly since this was a thing in the past and detectives wouldn't stop fucking validhunting with those either.

It honestly eludes me why detective can end up being more destructive than any of the other four security officers combined in a given round, and I don't think it's the gun. Otherwise it'd be wardens we'd have issues with.

[Garnascus]

Mechanical restrictions are better. Detectives should only have a taser. Ballistics are really strong and its weird for a role to have a gun when they should not be near a fight in the first place.