Mechanical Skill System or Remove Skills?

[Lmwevil]

Currently the skill system is broken, as you can pick maximum surgical skill as any role and then be bwoinked for doing surgery as a CT, etc etc. Thus it not only doesn't serve the purpose it's supposed to do, but can get you bwoinked for using it and having a false sense of confidence to do certain tasks. 

Thus there's 3 solutions:

Remove skills entirely

Code it that the skills it displays are visibly locked to whatever based on your job.

Or make skills mechanical, aka the bay system. You can only have up to certain levels in certain skills, being a master in certain skills based on job lets you say tell the door wires when fixing them as an engineer or whatever. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Lmwevil
a word

[Pratepresidenten]

Ive always been a big fan of mechanical skills for some extra realism as well as allowing more autonomy when it comes to skill things. If you literally cannot do something, you cant be bwoinked for it!

[Desven]

remove them, I prefer roleplaying skills anyways, and I hate Bay's skill system. Plus I've only seen them used to some defend they have max skills in electricity or something to just hack doors.

[Shenaanigans]

I have no interest in seeing mechanical skills implemented on Aurora. It'd tilt us further away from RP justifications for character behavior in favor of just "do you have the right skills" and I think it's pretty limiting to creativity in general. I'd be all for just scrubbing skills from the code/character setup since right now it just confuses people when they see a skills tab but clicking around in it does nothing.

[Susan]

If mechanical skills are added it would need to be with the caveat that antags can no longer morph from a janitor into a doctor lawyer phoron bomb-making ubercommando as soon as they get the big red T for Totally a Roleplayer next to them. I do not want to be subject to stringent mechanical restriction and then have them not apply to people for no real legitimate reason.

[Rabid Animal]

Problem with mechanical skills is implementation, its a lot of work to make skills relevant to everything they should be relevant to, and what'll happen is a half-done job like it has been on bay. In an ideal world, they'd be sick and I'd be totally down but I don't see them getting enough work done with them to make them really functional. I don't think skills should be removed either though, its a handy reference towards what your character can do when you have a lot to keep track of already, though I think some policy change might be worth looking into - since as is, yes! you can get bwoinked for working outside your department even if you have the skills (and the backstory to match them) to do so.  (of course then you tread on what is and isn't powergaming so I dunno that's a whole other discussion)

 

Maybe a good alternative would be to port and expand on the polaris traits? It's more focused on physical characteristics and depends a whole lot less on tons of integration with other aspects of the game.

[Carver]

I really don't like the bay system of mechanical skills. Skills should unlock jobs, Jobs shouldn't unlock skills. Just because you're off-duty or were demoted you shouldn't suddenly be entirely incapable of doing something you normally do, nor should you be insanely boosted because you were promoted to command.

If skills aren't tied to character I'd rather they just not exist to begin with. Though, currently, I'm fine with the system we have - the surgery thing is a bit silly but the provided example of a CT is rather extreme (if you're that trained/talented, why are you working as a literal crate hauler - doubly so if you're practicing the skills you have).

[Cnaym]

1 hour ago, Susan said:

big red T for Totally a Roleplayer

The problem would go both ways as well, seeing a janitor hack a door? VALID AS HECK THERE MATE

It's a good idea in theory, would love to see it implemented in a clever way, unlikely to happen though.

A soft skill system that gives bonuses to stuff would be better, like having some stats transfered from clothing items to specific roles instead, explained via "this person is trained in X"

[DronzTheWolf]

I do not like the mechanical skill system, and do not want it. However, if it does come, the skill should be linked to the character and not the job. 

[Kintsugi]

I'd like us to get a character-based mechanical skill system. I would not want to remove the present skill system just because it does nothing, though - you fix nothing and only make things more nebulous by removing it without a replacement.

[Faye <3]

I agree with Dronz in this regard. I do not want to see mechanical skills and much prefer RP, but if for some god-forsaken reason someone wants to implement it, it should be character-based rather than job based.

[Doxxmedearly]

In a vacuum, by themselves, I don't see mechanical skills as that much of an issue or antithetical to RP, but if they were implemented it would probably look different from Bay. Polaris's traits aren't bad either. That said, I don't really think we need to go this route. If we did, they almost certainly would be tied to a character and not a job. While Prate may have a point in it reducing bwoinks on one side... On the other, you'll probably have to do just as many for characters with extremely weird/high skillsets; either way, people are going to go through hoops to justify their skills, and if we had mechanical implementation, they'd just have more power before brought to staff's attention. I wouldn't trust half this playerbase with a tangible bonus to skills, because frankly we already have a problem with powergaming, and I'd prefer not to enable them mechanically if it can be avoided.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Doxxmedearly

[Triogenix]

I'm super tired and only doing this now because if I wait I'll never do it, so sorry in advance if I ramble or an unclear, I'll take a look at this tomorrow morning and clean it up if I was.

I am very against the implementation of a mechanical skill system, such as the system on bay, because I think it makes the focus of the game more on mechanics, rather then on RP. As for why, currently, players play characters that are well-rounded, they may specialize in their occupation but they know other things BEYOND their occupation. An example would be an engineer who also knows their way around certain weapons due to being a volunteer in the TCFL, or a security officer who enjoys cooking and cooks for themselves at home so may make a meal on-station for the rest of their department using the kitchen. Neither of these characters will be up to par with a proper solider/chef, obviously, but they'll be able to do it believably. HOWEVER, what I believe changes with a mechanical skill system is that people tend to min-max their characters for their jobs. So in my experience that meant every engineer was a master at building, every security officer was a master at the usage and maintenance of all types of weaponry, every EMT was in the best shape, etc. And, due to the limited number of points given to each character, it also meant that those little other skills were less likely to be a thing, as people min-max as hard as they can for their job. It's the same issue with tying it to jobs, it makes each character instead of a person, into a robot who only knows how to do one thing really well, and can't function with anything else.

 

The way I could only see it work in theory is if the skills that could even be picked were in some way mechanically limited by a factor(age, species, w/e), as I think if they had to be limited by the modmin team it would be even worse then it is now, but going down that road would only lead to more issues. This doesn't even touch on the amount of pure people effort it would take to hammer out which species could do what, like, "Should Skrell be as limited to skills as humans if they're in the same jobs?" It would be a herculean task(Just with hammering everything out for people, I dunno how hard the coding end would be cause I dunno anything about that) that, in my opinion, is not worth undertaking.

Tl;dr, It's not worth the hassle to add something that will cause characters to become more two-dimensional with their skills.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Triogenix

[Eple]

If skills could affect how long it takes to do something in game and risk of a straight failure would be nifty.

BUT other than that, i don't see any point of this, as peoples Background should be sufficent.. pluss there rarely is new people that survive a system where they can pick skills up to the average and not get boinked for cross-department skills, or thinking they can use the chem-master in community garden to seperate and make designer drugs because they got a professional in chemistery skill... not to mention there are no skills for cleaning \ janitorial.. despite in real life its a full fledged job that requires years of studying as even simple things as spray cleaners may contain chemicals and have correct place to be used with safetygear in mind aswell.. so not just anyone ingame thinking oh department looks messy, no need to call for janitorial when i can just get a soap in bathrooms or like iv seen some rounds a robot opening to janitorial so people can get what they need to clean....

IN my opinion cleaning blood\oil off the floor should be worthy of same boink as hacking into maintainance without beeing a engineer or beeing on gunpoint or hired by antag WITH appropriate backstory of beeing able to do so in characters background.. maybe they went engineering but decided to change jobs, re educate.. thus could have in exploitable info that they can do these things, thus keeping within character that theyr capeable but not able to do it regulary because of powergameing\metagameing rules, but as a exeption... anyway back to point Cleaning off blood has bio risks, cleaning up oil requires special cleaning equipment.. one cant just rub soap on it (other than if the character is Janitor, as they may know how to use a soap for that purpose, special super special janitorial training or it just beeing space soap that can do it)

ALSO wouldnt mind seeing soap use without gloves, give burns or chemical burns or somthing on hands if used a few times (very light damage, insignificant, but just to give people a hint.. dont use cleaning stuff)... same with space cleaner, protective googles, so if one walks into the spray one can get temp blinded, or get breathing problems that can build up if one uses it alot and not staying out of the spray... like normal cleaning spray.. your not suppose to breath it inn!

----

 

Anyway long point short: Kill the skill tree system

[Scheveningen]

On 04/07/2021 at 08:11, Lmwevil said:

Currently the skill system is broken, as you can pick maximum surgical skill as any role and then be bwoinked for doing surgery as a CT, etc etc.

Hardly the indictment of the status quo that you think this is, lmao. Seems like things are working as intended, if there is admin enforcement behind it?

Character skills are both parts set by the player to give themselves and the staff an understanding of their character's skill limitations and where their personal expertise lies. And then, the player is expected to roleplay that specialization/limitation dichotomy. If they do not, it's questionable roleplay, if they really do not, it's breaking the rules.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Scheveningen

[WickedCybs]

Character-based mechanical skills would be nice. It is really easy to just subtly powergame and do things out of the scope of your character, with departments like research, medical and engineering typically being the biggest offenders there. 

Also, I've been told the skill system as it is now isn't broken. It is more of an OOC tool we can look at. Course, nobody really uses it though.

Edited July 6, 2021 by WickedCybs

[Carver]

On 05/07/2021 at 06:37, Eple said:

If skills could affect how long it takes to do something in game and risk of a straight failure would be nifty.

BUT other than that, i don't see any point of this, as peoples Background should be sufficent.. pluss there rarely is new people that survive a system where they can pick skills up to the average and not get boinked for cross-department skills, or thinking they can use the chem-master in community garden to seperate and make designer drugs because they got a professional in chemistery skill... not to mention there are no skills for cleaning \ janitorial.. despite in real life its a full fledged job that requires years of studying as even simple things as spray cleaners may contain chemicals and have correct place to be used with safetygear in mind aswell.. so not just anyone ingame thinking oh department looks messy, no need to call for janitorial when i can just get a soap in bathrooms or like iv seen some rounds a robot opening to janitorial so people can get what they need to clean....

IN my opinion cleaning blood\oil off the floor should be worthy of same boink as hacking into maintainance without beeing a engineer or beeing on gunpoint or hired by antag WITH appropriate backstory of beeing able to do so in characters background.. maybe they went engineering but decided to change jobs, re educate.. thus could have in exploitable info that they can do these things, thus keeping within character that theyr capeable but not able to do it regulary because of powergameing\metagameing rules, but as a exeption... anyway back to point Cleaning off blood has bio risks, cleaning up oil requires special cleaning equipment.. one cant just rub soap on it (other than if the character is Janitor, as they may know how to use a soap for that purpose, special super special janitorial training or it just beeing space soap that can do it)

How is cleaning up messes 'boink-worthy'? Just because some clown overpaid for an education for a job that hundreds of thousands the world over do without 'years of studying' doesn't mean that cleaning things is hard, doubly so when characters have access to the same cleaning materials as anyone else. 'Special cleaning equipment' already has an advantage, spray bottle cleaner and cleaning grenades cover much more tiles in the same time than soap.

On 05/07/2021 at 06:37, Eple said:

ALSO wouldnt mind seeing soap use without gloves, give burns or chemical burns or somthing on hands if used a few times (very light damage, insignificant, but just to give people a hint.. dont use cleaning stuff)... same with space cleaner, protective googles, so if one walks into the spray one can get temp blinded, or get breathing problems that can build up if one uses it alot and not staying out of the spray... like normal cleaning spray.. your not suppose to breath it inn!

What in the fuck. What kind of shitty soap are you using that burns your hands, and why do you assume people can't close their eyes or hold their breath like an average human of triple digit IQ? I've used plenty of soaps bare-handed, and regularly use industrial-grade cleaners and pesticides that would kill a household pet without any 'years of studying' or other nonsense. Common sense prevails, you don't sniff chemical fumes, everyone on the station would know this given they're developed and (purportedly) functional adults.

[Eple]

space soap that can remove blood, oil, perfectly clean cloths and what not... im not sure if your trolling, but soap in real life just gets dirt off your fingers, most don't work on oil, but ill grant you it can remove oil off your fingers, but trying to use it as for washing cloths or cleaning floors... eeh.. gona just be helping smear it all over the floor.

Whats not so unbeliveable is people hacking into maint, wich should be a IC offense and not a boink reson (assumeing not hacking into a restricted area, like other departments.

Same with how chemmasters work in this game, seperateing plantmatter from drugs virsa versa clicking to see what a chemical does... a monkey could do this, to get 100% pure bananium.

Hardest job for anyone to naturally find their way trough is probebly robotics and circutry.

But yea, gona requires some pretty heavy chemicals to disintergrate every stain one comes across.

[Carver]

4 hours ago, Eple said:

Whats not so unbeliveable is people hacking into maint, wich should be a IC offense and not a boink reson (assumeing not hacking into a restricted area, like other departments.

This is both standard greytide behaviour, and in a majority of cases is a crime. No one will bwoink you for hacking into maintenance with a valid reason (getting away from danger).

4 hours ago, Eple said:

space soap that can remove blood, oil, perfectly clean cloths and what not... im not sure if your trolling, but soap in real life just gets dirt off your fingers, most don't work on oil, but ill grant you it can remove oil off your fingers, but trying to use it as for washing cloths or cleaning floors... eeh.. gona just be helping smear it all over the floor.

*snip*

Same with how chemmasters work in this game, seperateing plantmatter from drugs virsa versa clicking to see what a chemical does... a monkey could do this, to get 100% pure bananium.

Hardest job for anyone to naturally find their way trough is probebly robotics and circutry.

But yea, gona requires some pretty heavy chemicals to disintergrate every stain one comes across.

I decided to humour you and test this. Soap does not 'perfectly clean' clothes or items, Luminol will reveal the 'cleaned' blood handily. Only for floors did Luminol not work, but I made an issue on that as I suspect that the changes to soap in the last few years didn't take into account the forensic mechanics (let's be honest no one takes those mechanics into account).

So in a case of intended behaviour, it does not 'disintegrate' stains.

[Eple]

Carver, now i think your really trolling, Hacking into areas where you don't have access, even if its a non secure\trash area like maint behind your department is boink reson... with only exeption is if you got access.

This is not my assumtion or guessing, its what admins litterally have said.

Think ill end my responses here, also i recomend you avoid hacking anything outside of beeing a engineer with a valid reson. Else (powergameing, hacking into area without access and so on boink by admins)

[Carver]

If I was 'trolling' you I'd aim for the plethora of low-hanging fruit on offer instead of going through the effort of testing a mechanic to prove you wrong about soap, and to the topic, why cleaning is nowhere remotely near (both the skill requirements and 'bwoink-worthiness' of) hacking into a room or performing surgery as a crate hauler.

[OffRoad99]

I use the skills system to roughly represent what my characters are good at.
What I wouldn't mind seeing to our current implementation of this system are editable skills, where you can add new skills, describe them, and then select the proficiency level of your character in that field.

[Fluffy]

Skills were removed from the character setup, therefore this suggestion is considered implemented.

Locking and archiving.