1 dismissal Remove Cyborg

[Bear]

I have enjoyed many rounds with borgs. I have enjoyed many rp with borgs that frankly have more depth than player characters. I do not think removing them is a good take.

 

If they are stepping on your job, tell them to reassign. If that makes you uncomfortable how is that any different then your shared counterpart role? What do you do when there is a second medic? A second surgeon. Cooperate and learn to work together. Give them tasks, make them a subordinate. Odds are the player would love the interaction.

 

If that's against your character origin and you are uncomfortable telling the brog to fuck off? Consider an easier background that doesn't present this challenge.

[Scheveningen]

I believe that majorly nerfing stationbounds' tools is in order to resolve the problem of them invalidating actual character slots. That's the only viable solution I am seeing here.

[Lucaken]

From a lore perspective, borgs as a concept are incredibly annoying to deal with, as they defy boundries and the general rules we have. We could say they are under synthethic lore, but they are not linked to the whitelist. Packing them with the whitelist would be tricky because most IPCs and borgs are nothing alike - a player wanting access to just one would have to go through the other as well. This is ontop of the fact that they have very little lore that is not old and disused. Generally when something goes ignored in lore for this long, it's because there is little to no interest for updating/adding to it. We cannot and will not force writers to write about something they are not interested in, and so borgs are likely to remain in this limbo until they are changed.

On a personal note, I find them incredibly dull to interact with. This isn't the fault of the people who play these borgs, as the role quite literally forces you into being an obedient servant with very little room for characterisation. You can make a borg who is enjoyable to others (see: the people in this thread saying they have had positive experiences) but this is in spite of the idea of borgs. They are, by the very definition of their rulesets, automated worker-bots who fill in the gaps for a few necessary functions. You cannot make a character out of that without pushing past their concept or essentially becoming an IPC - neither of which should be happening.

[Montyfatcat]

22 hours ago, Fluffy said:

Maybe they have to "download" the knowledge from somewhere in round? Like you download software to do things, so you'd have a list of things you can do, maybe in a "tech tree"

So you like, download the "engineering" general module, then the "ship reactor control", if you need to repair something you have to wipe the "ship reactor control" and download the "maintenance protocols" because you have limited memory available, and so on?

They already have to get a machinist to wipe their original module to change module, downscaling this to specialisations would be a pain in the ass unless you simply made the specialisations into individual modules. I'll post an idea for this later, since a lot of the people saying "Reform don't remove" don't seem to have an idea of their own to push.

[Sputnik5927]

Cyborgs can absolutely be their own characters. This is completely a player question, not a game question. BORE GM-9, D3N and Bit have all been fun to roleplay with. Cyborgs are an integral part of the setting and just removing them because they're slightly problematic in some aspects would not be very good. Really, I don't even see the need to "reform" them - they are fine as they are. The only thing I would be willing to agree on would be something like further specialization. So, a medical borg would become a surgery borg or something like that.

Cyborgs are efficient and capable and sometimes that is what you need. If I was playing my Surgeon and seeing bodies pile up outside of my Operating Theater, I would really want a medical cyborg to drop in and save me.

They are not just good for round balance and workload, but they are also an integral part of the setting, especially with the current arc. Remove them and the AI will suffer as well.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Sputnik5927

[greenjoe]

I see there is a poll up now for their removal, if that does go though and they are removed, what IC reasoning might there be for the current robot characters vanishing?

[Jakers]

I feel the most elegant solution for them is for heads of department to requisition for them, or/and have them readily available under a certain threshold.  

They cover gaps in the workforce when needed and are IC expensive in some ways, compared to bio-staff.  Removing them for the sake of territorial disputes over work has more cons than pros. 

I think this would be a happy medium, and either the requisition can be made via robotics/machinists to give them work or just have borgs ready to be pulled from storage.

You can still have massive gaps in the workforce even with a healthy pop, especially if half or even just a third of the pop is soaked by a security department who get bored and cryo. 

[Desven]

I've made several suggestions in the past to heavily modify cyborgs, but ultimately I believe the role cannot be fixed. They're a remnant of a different kind of server (or game, for that matter) and I don't think whitelisting them would improve much.

46 minutes ago, greenjoe said:

I see there is a poll up now for their removal, if that does go though and they are removed, what IC reasoning might there be for the current robot characters vanishing?

There needs not to be a reason, I would prefer if in lore they were just voided due to Luca's raised concerns. And frankly, station characters should realistically not feel attached to any cyborgs. Previously it has just created cliquey behavior that lead to IRs and administrative actions, as stationbounds have unlimited access (which I find the most unfair of their mechanics).

[greenjoe]

32 minutes ago, Desven said:

I would prefer if in lore they were just voided due to Luca's raised concerns.

That's a decent idea to do to, I imagine the recent cyborgifcations would need to then be voided to life sentences?
which does bring up the high level sentences, it'd restrict them to marooning or HUT more or less.

[Carver]

If cyborgification were ever removed from lore I'd like to see some other form of brutal, morale-crushing and controversial form of execution to take it's place.

[greenjoe]

14 minutes ago, Carver said:

If cyborgification were ever removed from lore I'd like to see some other form of brutal, morale-crushing and controversial form of execution to take it's place.

That certainly would be interesting.. what sort of thing, if you had any ideas?

[Carver]

3 hours ago, greenjoe said:

That certainly would be interesting.. what sort of thing, if you had any ideas?

It would take some thought unfortunately to come up with something that remains reprehensible to as many different cultures/faiths (Federation Loyalists/Tribunal Faithfuls/Trinary Cultists) as cyborgification presently is, which is why it's such a marvelous plot device.

[Dreamix]

There is no way that cyborgification will be removed. It is too entrenched in the lore at this point. Only a way to consistently join as borgs should be removed.

[KingOfThePing]

If at all, then cyborgs will be removed from the ship, not the lore. I dont know a good reason yet but we will find one, dont worry.

[Fluffy]

On 15/10/2022 at 18:19, Montyfatcat said:

They already have to get a machinist to wipe their original module to change module, downscaling this to specialisations would be a pain in the ass unless you simply made the specialisations into individual modules. I'll post an idea for this later, since a lot of the people saying "Reform don't remove" don't seem to have an idea of their own to push.

I mean, it doesn't even need to be a mechanical thing, it can just be a RP-based feature

When I play the cyborg and someone issue orders to do any and everything, I make it painfully slow to order and execute, I present the cyborg in whatever station and wait for instructions on what to do, eg. if I'm in medbay I'd park myself in the reception area and await to receive instructions of what to do, if I'm send aboard to support another department to medically support the security dealing with the antags I'd just park myself behind

 

What is it? Want me to open a door you don't have access to to frontal charge the antags? Hold on a second... processing... oops sorry it looks like you don't have the authorization, I need the approval of the head to do that

Got it and are charging the antags? Sorry I'm not a mobile shield, I'll stay behind and come to rescue you once you finish

You are hurt but so is the antag? Well I don't make friendly distinctions, you are all station crew in my eyes, let me patch up the antag too, good luck~

 

(Of course those are examples, I adjust what to do and how much depending on how the round is going and what makes sense, if the crew is almost wiped out I'd not help the antags even more, it's an example to make a point)

 

IMHO the cyborgs can generate a lot of fun and interactions, you can't really RP on their emotions or past because they don't really have either, but they can indeed spice up the round if played with the idea to facilitate generating interactions and events

 

Throwing cyborgs under the bridge because some players like to play them as "show up, don't speak a word, steal everyone's job and leave" is IMHO not the way to go, many of the complains can just aswell be ported to the AI and its shell itself

 

They have a reason to be there, can be played in a way to both facilitate and generate content and interactions, gives you a change in play style when you feel burned out by the normal characters socialization on the station, aren't that used anyways and can sometimes even help rebalance the round using the old military tradition of "creative interpretation of the orders", all of which could be even pushed more through the quasi-RP expectation set in the wiki and the lawset, and managed administratively otherwise if someone picks a cyborg and use it as a mobile all-access ID card shield or supermegauber worker that's gonna steal all your jobs

 

My two cents

[Montyfatcat]

9 hours ago, Fluffy said:

Throwing cyborgs under the bridge because some players like to play them as "show up, don't speak a word, steal everyone's job and leave" is IMHO not the way to go, many of the complains can just aswell be ported to the AI and its shell itself

The issue is they much more easily facilitate this issue by not being behind a whitelist. The standards for a cyborg character are extremely low by virtue of being a free role, only amplified by not being *required* to act as a character in any major way. There's only so far you can wiggle with them that won't actively piss off the playerbase, and quite frankly the situations you described would piss a lot of people off with little rp benefit.

 

9 hours ago, Fluffy said:

You are hurt but so is the antag? Well I don't make friendly distinctions, you are all station crew in my eyes, let me patch up the antag too, good luck~

This also would need you to ignore the borg laws that specifically state that crew are priority in all cases, so I don't really consider that a fair argument to make, and would still come under the category of "pissing everyone off".

 

9 hours ago, Fluffy said:

What is it? Want me to open a door you don't have access to to frontal charge the antags? Hold on a second... processing... oops sorry it looks like you don't have the authorization, I need the approval of the head to do that

The most irritating borgs I had to deal with as a roboticist main were exactly the ones that did this, because I'd be forced to supervise somebody who's going through a check list of copy-pastes while I'm trying to do quick maintenance so I can get back to the RP I was actually enjoying, and it never even gave me anything to do extra in the mean time.

 

9 hours ago, Fluffy said:

Got it and are charging the antags? Sorry I'm not a mobile shield, I'll stay behind and come to rescue you once you finish

Pretty sure you wouldn't be allowed to act as a mobile shield anyway, and I don't know any of even the most combat focussed sec mains that would want you to bodyblock for them.

[Fluffy]

3 hours ago, Montyfatcat said:

There's only so far you can wiggle with them that won't actively piss off the playerbase, and quite frankly the situations you described would piss a lot of people off with little rp benefit.

Exactly why I was saying it as a bad example of how to play a cyborg

 

3 hours ago, Montyfatcat said:

This also would need you to ignore the borg laws that specifically state that crew are priority in all cases, so I don't really consider that a fair argument to make, and would still come under the category of "pissing everyone off".

That only applies if the antags are mercenaries or the likes, if the antag is a revolution or the likes, unless there's to choose between a head and an apprentice, in the eye of the cyborg they are at the same level, so the one most injured will take priority over the other, and both will be rescued eventually

 

3 hours ago, Montyfatcat said:

The most irritating borgs I had to deal with as a roboticist main were exactly the ones that did this, because I'd be forced to supervise somebody who's going through a check list of copy-pastes while I'm trying to do quick maintenance so I can get back to the RP I was actually enjoying, and it never even gave me anything to do extra in the mean time.

I'm not sure why the roboticist would be involved in this scenario? It's security on one side, antag(s) on the other

[Zelmana]

More policy to attempt to control what it simply bad player and roleplay behavior? It can pass a poll, but know that the continued neutering of scope of play will only hurt roleplay and playerbase in the long run. We will continue to strip "potentially abusive" parts of our server in favor of player freedom and responsibility. I think this mentality is detrimental to the server.

[Caelphon]

It seems there is a lot of confusion regarding whether Cyborgs would remain in lore. 

They most likely would. I don't condone them being removed as of this moment. 

However, I do believe that their time on Aurora has come to a close. We don't need to suddenly act like they never existed, merely that they exist but aren't used on the SCCV Horizon due to the precarious nature of stationbounds in regards to mechanophobic societies that exist.

But, we don't need to remove them entirely. Surely we can just remove them from spawning normally, and can only actually appear in a round if a machinist decides to create one? 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Caelphon

[Jupiter Storm]

I'm gobsmacked by this thread. Another certified 'Aurora Solution(tm)' to Synthetic problems; reduce, restrict, remove. And I salute those fallen A.I. brothers, for whom life is too short to waggle yet another whitelist seeking the approval of their fellow man to write words on a computer.

Most of the issues you've identified with Borg in this thread are not solely related to the role of Stationbound Cyborgs (other than being non-characters, which at best is subject to the whims of the writer, instead of being an objective fact). Rather, they're related to the prevalence of another common symptom of Aurora that has persisted for many years. -- And one that features on other servers besides.

---> One Man Department Syndrome <---

We've all seen that Trauma Physician who absolutely MUST request access to Chemistry to mix up some Bicaridine and Peridaxon. Many of us are familiar with the Engineer who blasts through Thruster setup because the Atmos Tech made the fatal mistake of sorting out their workplace before commencing the 100m sprint.

And let's not forget the heavily-armed monster hunters that are the Mining Department, in every antag round ever. Aurora has already proved itself capable of sensibly resolving the issue of 'crew combat' by provisioning a semi-paramilitary setting, and an armoury that Civilians can gear up from should the need arise.

Cyborg players are also common sinners in this regard, I will grant you. But again, it boils down to the nature of the individual behind the role, and not the role itself. And even then, the only thing that Cyborg brings to the table, in a competition of "who does my role better" is an expanded toolkit and all-access... But this is at the steep cost of not being awarded any ERP tokens for flexing their multi-departmental prowess in front of all the girls.

Ultimately, the problem you all have isn't Cyborgs. It's "DEY TUK ARE JERBS".

This problem will persist indefinitely, until the end of time. For as long as roles exist, for as long as E-peen flexing remains a thing, and for as long as certain people continue to assume that everybody else is less competent than they are... This problem will persist.

I would advocate instead for the following solutions:

#1 - Add a Law:

Yes, good arguments have been made that it doesn't make sense to tell a highly competent Cyborg to relinquish control of a situation to a member of crew, but you could also make an argument for automated systems being relegated to 'benchwarmer duty' for a society that has witnessed a number of machine-related incidents in the past. This law would take the form of something like, 'Do not perform redundant tasks, for any given situation where an appropriately-trained member of crew has already declared ownership of the task.'

You could also reasonably argue that this law is intended to maximise a machine's efficiency. It's not an ideal solve, though, because it will invariably lead to Law Conflicts where the Cyborg's player feels like distancing themselves from an unfolding disaster currently being handled by another member of crew would not be safeguarding the crew to the best of their abilities.

Though, on the flipside, this lore law** will help to promote a culture where members of a department actually communicate with each other and delegate.

#2 - Downsize the Toolkit:

Split the various Cyborg Modules into further sub-categories and the tools required for that specific sub-category. Atmospherics / Engine / Electronics / Construction. General Medicine / Surgery / Chemistry. Robotics / Research Protolathe Feeder / Excavation. ... And so on.

Limit the door and computer access of the chosen Module to the access levels granted to its corresponding role. Remove the Cyborg's ability to remotely interface with doors. LESS ideal for the Cyborg players, but I am after all advocating for roleplay over mechanics, here.

#3 - Add a Server Rule / Enforce it Better:

Quote

Restrict yourself to your character's knowledge. You, as a player, might have the knowledge of how to hack airlocks, but your average doctor likely doesn't. Reference the glossary for definitions of powergaming and metagaming. This rule is further explained in the character creation section, as well.

Quote

Cross-departmental knowledge is possible, however, it should be done in a believable fashion. Things to take into consideration: the amount of time it would take to learn what is required, the amount of time and effort it would take to gain the qualifications/certifications required, and most importantly, the closeness of the different sets of knowledge. For example: a roboticist knowing electrical engineering is believable, as the two fields overlap to a large degree. A security officer moonlighting as a PhD xenobiologist is not believable, and as such, the server administration may ask the character to be reworked.

These rules don't adequately cover the niche issue of a gAmEplAy LoOp being disrupted by the activity of one truly exceptional genius... WITHIN a Department. They definitely apply for OUTSIDE of a Department, but I can totally see where somebody who was trying to interpret the rules 'creatively' could make a reasoned argument to ignore this.

Of course, ignoring this would be against the rules. But to spot that behaviour, you need to whistle for more whistleblowers.

I think that enforcing this rule more closely will promote a culture where there is a general 'understanding' and 'respect' for more specific individual roles. Which in turn, will boil over into the realms of Cyborg players.

#4 - Share your Sandbox with the other kids:

When I was 5 years old, I learned how to tell my brother to stay in his lane and play with his own Lego Duplo.

Better communication solves EVERYTHING. ":m Yes hello could you please f**k off to play with your IV drips and leave surgery to the professionals?" -- When dealing with other cheeky crew.

Alternatively, ":e Hello mister cyborg, please share this breach with me. My knees quake at your awesome power but I want to build some pixellated bricks too." -- When dealing with a borg.

#5 - ** Late Afterthought ** - Just Get Good at Roleplay:

The points by @niennab and @Zelmana deserve extensive consideration, actually. Efforts should be made to proactively increase the quality of roleplay - whether that might take the form of I'm doing my part(!) to interact with your fellow man instead of chasing that perfect gAmEplAy LoOp, or to double down on the number of headpats given to people who actually do a good Borg.

And / Or, add further roleplay guidelines for Borgs to help people better understand the distinction between a 'machine' and a 'human'... And no, stubbornly stamping your foot and stating "MACHINES AREN'T ROLEPLAY" won't cut it.

With a community population which fluctuates massively depending on how many people Ready Up on a shift, you guys REALLY can't afford to keep taking the approach of, "Oh well, all we'll lose is a handful of X mains... Fuck 'em."

Edited November 10, 2022 by Jupiter Storm

[Omicega]

3 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

And even then, the only thing that Cyborg brings to the table, in a competition of "who does my role better" is an expanded toolkit and all-access...

You're saying "the only thing" as if these two points aren't literally the main issue people have with them. Yes, cyborgs are completely immune to pain, atmospheric issues, access requirements and the burden of IC job knowledge restrictions -- that's not just a little bonus in terms of toys to play with compared to a regular character, that's a massive leg up.

The rest of your post is full of this weird kind of sardonic, snarky, half-jokey bittervet energy so I don't really want to engage with it and invite a prolonged discussion, but I think it's particularly egregious to try and mock players irritated at their gameplay loop being trodden on with fUnNy CaPiTaLiSaTiOn while also minimising the obvious advantages cyborgs bring compared to their organic counterparts.

[Meep]

Quote

players irritated at their gameplay loop being trodden on

I really find this hard to understand. People are talking as if these are actually real cyborgs taking their jobs. These are real people you know? They have just as much of an entitlement to play their role as you. I understand, it sucks when there's not much you can do, when there is someone doing the job better but this isn't a problem exclusive to cyborgs. It seems odd to me to remove something that many people enjoy simply because they annoy you sometimes. It's not like there are cyborgs ruining round after round. To me cyborgs are a staple of SS13 and it would be a shame to see them go.

[Jupiter Storm]

33 minutes ago, Omicega said:

You're saying "the only thing" as if these two points aren't literally the main issue people have with them. Yes, cyborgs are completely immune to pain, atmospheric issues, access requirements and the burden of IC job knowledge restrictions -- that's not just a little bonus in terms of toys to play with compared to a regular character, that's a massive leg up.

The rest of your post is full of this weird kind of sardonic, snarky, half-jokey bittervet energy so I don't really want to engage with it and invite a prolonged discussion, but I think it's particularly egregious to try and mock players irritated at their gameplay loop being trodden on with fUnNy CaPiTaLiSaTiOn while also minimising the obvious advantages cyborgs bring compared to their organic counterparts.

I just had to google the meaning of egregious, which is really the main reason I don't personally play Borg anymore, but I'm still invested in the experience that Borg mains have. And in retaining the variety of roleplay available to people with differing tastes - as well as the variety of roleplayers available to anybody wandering the station looking for someone to interact with.

or a reason to ready up

I think you got a bit lost having a hearty chuckle there, which is understandable but you missed a crucial point. The very reason I chose to pick on this concept of a Gameplay Loop - while in the same breath suggesting the reduction of a cyborg's chad-tier advantages in order to appease the blood gods - is because these are mechanical concerns. They are, in my opinion, secondary to the availability of worthwhile roleplay that you are able to personally enjoy.

Therefore, it is an absolute no-brainer for me to contemplate making small sacrifices and / or reaching a (heavily tilted) compromise in order to keep the IRL NPCs who enjoy this most hated of roles, around. 2D Spessmen Simulator is not a Single Player RPG, as @Meep has pointed out. Game experience may change during online play.

That, sir. Is why 'gameplay loop' is funny in this context.

[PoZe]

5 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

2 - Downsize the Toolkit:

Split the various Cyborg Modules into further sub-categories and the tools required for that specific sub-category. Atmospherics / Engine / Electronics / Construction. General Medicine / Surgery / Chemistry. Robotics / Research Protolathe Feeder / Excavation. ... And so on.

Limit the door and computer access of the chosen Module to the access levels granted to its corresponding role. Remove the Cyborg's ability to remotely interface with doors. LESS ideal for the Cyborg players, but I am after all advocating for roleplay over mechanics, here.

I do like those ideas(And also the other bullet points, I am quoting only this one as I am going to talk about it). That was exactly what I was suggesting as well in a different thread, minus the further division of sub-modules. But I agree that splitting cyborgs into more specialized sub-modules is good idea and would be happy to work on implementing any of these changes. I still feel like my other ideas in different thread: such lettings RD/Captain/CCIA(possibly AI?) to control whether cyborgs can have All access or per role depending on situation is a good idea. Because I am sure there will be some command staff that would like to utilize cyborgs during difficult situation when crew cannot.

[Lucaken]

19 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

Ultimately, the problem you all have isn't Cyborgs. It's "DEY TUK ARE JERBS".

It's rather incredible how you manage to jump over some 3-pages worth of arguments with a single snarky comment over-generalising the issue and declaring you know exactly how to solve it. I suggest that you lose the snide attitude when engaging in this thread, because it makes it incredibly annoying to read anything you write, ignoring the ways in which you belittle the other side's arguments.

19 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

And / Or, add further roleplay guidelines for Borgs to help people better understand the distinction between a 'machine' and a 'human'... And no, stubbornly stamping your foot and stating "MACHINES AREN'T ROLEPLAY" won't cut it.

You write this as if it's as easy as adding more 'guidelines', but the problem goes much deeper. Borgs are, per both what little lore they have hanging onto them and the mechanics they operate by in-game, worker-bots completely limited by the lawsets they operate within. Considering the massive gameplay advantages they get, it's no surprise people don't really like it when a borg swoops in and does everything their job is meant to do, faster, without many of the danger associated with it or even just the personal interactions that may come of it. "A borg has done the job, as equipment is expected to do, guess we better move on."

This is ontop of the fact that adding anything more to borgs from a lore/conceptual perspective makes them start encroaching on IPCs. As I already described in my first post, whenever a borg goes out of their way to be more than their assigned rulesets, they might prove interesting to play with - but this is all being done in spite of their rules. Until removed, they will forever be in this timeless limbo where nobody wants to work on them and anybody wanting to play them have to bend their very concept to the point of breaking it.

19 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

to interact with your fellow man instead of chasing that perfect gAmEplAy LoOp,

15 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

is because these are mechanical concerns. They are, in my opinion, secondary to the availability of worthwhile roleplay that you are able to personally enjoy.

Easily the largest misconception you have throughout your entire argument is that roleplay supercedes gameplay. This is entirely wrong - it's not a matter of opinion. Gameplay and roleplay work in tandem to achieve a greater gameplay experience. If roleplay was all that ever mattered, we would all still be playing MUDs. Bulldozing over the concerns people have with how borgs affect the gameplay loop really just shows how out of touch you are with the actual game.

19 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

With a community population which fluctuates massively depending on how many people Ready Up on a shift, you guys REALLY can't afford to keep taking the approach of, "Oh well, all we'll lose is a handful of X mains... Fuck 'em."

Removing borgs isn't going to kill our server. Pretending that it will is just a weak attempt at overblowing the importance of borgs. Even if there were dozens of borg mains (there aren't), it's not like the server doesn't already have a variety of synthetic forms to play as - who, unlike borgs, get to be actual characters.