Departmental Security

[AmoryBlaine]

Adding Dept Sec does nothing to facilitate new RP. All it does is railroad actual RPers into a single department, while not even trying to keep them there- But at the same time keeps them as an outsider since they are never guarenteed to be in that department. The shitters remain the same. They weren't interacting with you now. They aren't interacting with you when you try to make them a part of another department. And no, they aren't going to flock to investigative or warden-- as though that'd be a good thing considering those are all RP heavy roles as well.

6 hours ago, Datamatt said:

I'd argue this PR gives me more choice and more ways to RP with people in departments in ways I wouldn't really have access to.

Like what. Like what that actually has consistent value.

 

6 hours ago, Datamatt said:

The problem of "security can't be coordinated" has already been resolved. They get stationbounced radios.

This is a massive annoyance for no particular reason outside the arbitrary decision making of a few people.

 

6 hours ago, geeves said:

I've updated them to have both channels in their radios, but they do not follow the Head of Security's orders explicitly. They still remain under the command of their department's head. Of course this changes if the department has no head, in which case normal operation continues.

Can you explain why the Security team should take direct orders from Departmental Heads rather the HoS and what the HoS is suppose to do with this change implemented.

[geeves]

2 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Can you explain why the Security team should take direct orders from Departmental Heads rather the HoS and what the HoS is suppose to do with this change implemented.

That's being changed to dual authority, with some hijinks when code levels increase. The idea is still in the development stages.

[stev]

I'm kind of concerned that the HoS is gonna be even more of a dead role outside of antaggery with this, as they won't even be interacting with their own department much as they'll be tied to random departments. 

[Rushodan]

@geeves I don't really understand the need for authority change? Why not have the head of staff communicate with the HoS if they want things done that are outside of a normal officer role.

[Peppermint]

This is such an amazingly bad plan. What benefit is there for anyone who plays sec? Maybe if it was a very high pop server, sure, that'd work. As it is - especially with the office layout - all this does is cause problems. Nobody is going to want to staff a two person medical team. Nobody is going enjoy constantly sitting in an office doing nothing whilst engineering wanders around the station. It's boring. Likewise, it feels totally hypocritical when it's not like many of the other departments mingle unless they have to anyway; if people want to go and talk together, they can do so. Forcing sec officers really isn't a fix.

 

If people want someone in their department, just ask? If people want to interact with sec members, do so. Nobody is stopping you. But what often happens is that there's ridiculous resistance to any officer being in/near a department just 'cause. Then to top it all off, why don't we make HoS - one of the very few command roles that actually interacts and changes the round - totally useless. 

[AmoryBlaine]

1 hour ago, SHODAN said:

I don't really understand the need for authority change? Why not have the head of staff communicate with the HoS if they want things done that are outside of a normal officer role.

Because the basis of this is diversifying Security across the departments, not actually giving Security total control of the station by branching out a single Officer to every department. But, of course, Security Officers will likely find it within their interest not to go against the Head of Security since their job goals are more likely to line up, rather than an Officer and a RD, or something. So in all likelihood 'dual' authority will be pushed to the side and Security will follow HoS orders all the time-Code changes or not- because dual authority is a hassle and most Heads of Staff don't interest themselves in what Officers do currently anyways, even when given the opportunity to order them around. This just loops back around to Sec having total control of the station with a breakdown of clear boundaries for operation as Officer.

[JKJudgeX]

The HoS absolutely should still be in command of security officers regardless of their post.

It's arbitrary and strange otherwise, and doesn't resemble any kind of real-world organizational structure.  Distributing security through the station is a good idea; arbitrarily decapitating the department and hampering their ability to coordinate is a meaningless disruption of the department that I'm sure most of them do not want in the format that's been proposed here.

You're just going to be sitting in a department with nothing to do, and security and the armory are going to be ezpz targets for any kind of antagonist.

This seems like just another antag-love PR when antags already have it hilariously easy with the exception of having a police AI, but that's been a problem since AI, so...  The game works best if the station can defend itself effectively and this allows for more RP that doesn't get disrupted by antags.  All those people that vote extended or don't want to be converted to an antag?  I'm sure they'd like it if the security department (Which signed up to fight antags) could interact with the parts of the game they don't particularly enjoy while they continue their role-playing.

Also, don't forget that in MANY ROUNDS there are not very many heads.  Putting the "medbay security officer" under a CMO or a science sec officer under an RD when those roles are often unfilled seems unwise. 

[Crozarius]

I love this suggestion. It's a great idea. While I did have my reservations especially regarding the deptsec's inability to access the security radio channel, it appears that that feedback has been received and they now have access to it. In fact, I even consider this as a buff to Security, given that it will increase the total number of officer slots, grants Security more department access, and puts Security closer to departments in such a way that makes them even quicker to respond to department level stuff. I don't think it railroads or traps security to the extent that has been expressed above: A department security officer is not trapped inside their department, they're just responsible for it on paper. You're allowed to leave your department, you're allowed to patrol outside of your department - you have a department radio after all, and they can call you! You're just the officer responsible for your department, and with that and your increased access it encourages extra interaction with that area whilst not strictly limiting your ability to do other stuff. And let's be honest here: Being in a department isn't going to make security vulnerable to the degree that I've heard: If the mercenaries want to hit the armoury hard and fast from a position of surprise, it doesn't matter if every single security officer is standing inside the security lobby when it happens: You're not gonna' get into hardsuits and stop them in time. Being attached to departments and being spread out isn't going to reduce Security's ability to stop that sort of thing - if you find yourself having to run from your department to Security it'll take you what? 15-20 seconds? Not that much more than if you were patrolling main hallways like Security usually do. It's not a big deal.

 

This PR also makes a lot of sense from an IC perspective: A greater distribution of officers throughout the station makes more sense for Code Green which would be overwhelmingly the normal state of the station. Nobody expects the station to come under attack by a concentrated assault from a bunch of highly trained and ruthless mercenaries, and while I'm not saying that Security should not be prepared for that whatsoever, what I am saying is that from an IC perspective the benefit of having a spread-out Security force is greater than having a heavily centralised one, because the risk of some kind of concentrated assault is so tiny.

 

But further to the whole 'addressing concerns' and 'makes sense IC' things, I just also like this PR because I think it'd be cute to have an officer attached to my department. It'll bring security that much closer, and I'll have the opportunity to interact with them and get to know them better. My experiences thus far have been pretty good if I actually get the chance to interact with security characters, and once I get that first contact and conversation with them it gets much easier, but in the standard course of things it's pretty hard to strike up a conversation with security when they're either hiding in the Security Dept or off patrolling. When they're inside the department I feel like it'll give a lot of people the opportunity to get that first contact and form a rapport IC, and even should that officer be transferred to another department in a different round we'll still remember that officer because we've become acquainted. 

 

I see that there's been a lot of hyperbole gone on in the comments of this PR. I wanted you all to know that in spite of that there are loads of people like me who think that this PR is a great idea!

[AmoryBlaine]

4 hours ago, Crozarius said:

In fact, I even consider this as a buff to Security, given that it will increase the total number of officer slots, grants Security more department access, and puts Security closer to departments in such a way that makes them even quicker to respond to department level stuff.

This is a problem. Security does not need this.

5 hours ago, Crozarius said:

I don't think it railroads or traps security to the extent that has been expressed above: A department security officer is not trapped inside their department, they're just responsible for it on paper.

So what does this change, then? On paper I'm suppose to be responsible for the department? What about in action? You outlined I can leave and do whatever else I wants. And what, I go to the department when things go to shit there? So essentially how it is now, but I don't need to ask for access?

5 hours ago, Crozarius said:

You're just the officer responsible for your department, and with that and your increased access it encourages extra interaction with that area whilst not strictly limiting your ability to do other stuff.

It doesn't encourage extra interaction, it detracts from it by removing the middle man of needing to ask or build relations with personnel in order to gain access to a department willingly. Given you're not being incentivized anymore than you currently are to talk to people in your  given department, all it does is railroad  the process of security gaining access to areas. If you currently are interested in befriending others- you do so. In this update you are interested in befriending others- you do so. Nothing changes but Sec getting a massive buff.

What is the assumption being made here if a Dept Officer isn't patrolling the station as he is allowed? That he is inside the department 'interacting' with the staff there? What does that translate to? Standing in the RnD lab talking? Standing in the SM monitoring room talking on the radio? Sitting in the Medical lobby talking to the nurses? Or is it more involved? Moving crates with cargo technicians? Going EVA with Engineering to- watch them set up solars, or make repairs? Maybe cover the EMTs duties?

All of this is possible currently. Everything is possible currently. On top of it being the same between changes, the only big difference is currently, it is not based in the fact that you share a department but that you genuinely want to interact with the characters so you go out of your way to seek that interaction.

Back before we simplified the shield set up system, I'd help move the generators. Why? Because it helps build interdepartmental relations. What if we still had that, but I was now just spawning in the department? Okay, great. I helped. I didn't go out of my way to do so. I'm already there. I can even hear them on my radio. This lessens the actual influence the action has from the standpoint of interdepartmental relations, and is just more akin to not being an asshole, rather than doing something out of the ordinary.

By attempting to force interactions you lessen their actual value otherwise. On top of this, we buff Sec through the roof, by covering every department.

 

 

[AmoryBlaine]

6 hours ago, Crozarius said:

My experiences thus far have been pretty good if I actually get the chance to interact with security characters, and once I get that first contact and conversation with them it gets much easier, but in the standard course of things it's pretty hard to strike up a conversation with security when they're either hiding in the Security Dept or off patrolling.

When they're out, moving around it's hard to RP with them. For who? You, as you hide in your department not recognizing the hypocrisy, given you're wanting an officer close to you, rather than you going to meet an officer? When are they in their department? When they're sitting in the lobby, much like Medical? There's no secret stuff going on inside, they're either processing people, training cadets, or AFK standing in the corner. When Officers walk by in the hallways, you are more than capable of saying hello, and striking up conversation. Especially if you've made first contact. Unless they have somewhere to be or don't want to talk to you, they aren't going to leave. You act as though this isn't going to happen once they have an on-paper responsibility to watch their assigned department. You've even said yourself that they can and will leave the departments and essentially do what they do now- but with more access.

 

6 hours ago, Crozarius said:

This PR also makes a lot of sense from an IC perspective: A greater distribution of officers throughout the station makes more sense for Code Green which would be overwhelmingly the normal state of the station. Nobody expects the station to come under attack by a concentrated assault from a bunch of highly trained and ruthless mercenaries, and while I'm not saying that Security should not be prepared for that whatsoever, what I am saying is that from an IC perspective the benefit of having a spread-out Security force is greater than having a heavily centralised one, because the risk of some kind of concentrated assault is so tiny.

But they aren't centralized, they're all over the place moving around, patrolling, talking to people. If anything having Security watching every department at all times is implying there is an underlying tension and provides an immediate response to all possible threats.

 

6 hours ago, Crozarius said:

When they're inside the department I feel like it'll give a lot of people the opportunity to get that first contact and form a rapport IC, and even should that officer be transferred to another department in a different round we'll still remember that officer because we've become acquainted. 

You feel it'll be easier- yes, because it removes any actual sense of it being a task to communicate with others. You want things handed to you on a plate, rather than show the initiative to meet others. You want to lessen the actual weight of interaction by trying to force people to be near each other- but also not forcing them. Just, giving Sec access cards and a reason to be watching you work from inside the department. How about rather than rely on a forced system to introduce you to people, you just say hello to other characters you think are worthwhile saying hello to?

 

[Zundy]

Keep HoS imo. Trial it for a week and see how it goes. My opinion has changed a little bit and I'm leaning more towards department sec maybe not being that good but a trial will confirm either way.

[MattAtlas]

23 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Adding Dept Sec does nothing to facilitate new RP. All it does is railroad actual RPers into a single department, while not even trying to keep them there- But at the same time keeps them as an outsider since they are never guarenteed to be in that department. The shitters remain the same. They weren't interacting with you now. They aren't interacting with you when you try to make them a part of another department. And no, they aren't going to flock to investigative or warden-- as though that'd be a good thing considering those are all RP heavy roles as well.

Like what. Like what that actually has consistent value.

 

This is a massive annoyance for no particular reason outside the arbitrary decision making of a few people.

 

Can you explain why the Security team should take direct orders from Departmental Heads rather the HoS and what the HoS is suppose to do with this change implemented.

It does nothing to facilitate new RP because you're still stuck in an extremely narrow mindset. It doesn't railroad you- this is something you made up because you can't fathom the idea of being able to leave the department if you want to. You can either stay or leave. Humans are social beings - why is it that you can't talk to people to tell them "hey I'm going on a break" on an online game? This is all it takes to leave the department. How are you being railroaded with this in mind?

People will interact with you if you're part of the department. If you've ever played any other department, you'll know this. People of your same department react better to you attempting to make a conversation with them as opposed to if you weren't.

I can't give you examples of how people roleplay. This is a stupid thing to ask for.

"Arbitrary decision making of a few people" Yet I see the majority here being in clear support?

[AmoryBlaine]

1 hour ago, Datamatt said:

It does nothing to facilitate new RP because you're still stuck in an extremely narrow mindset. It doesn't railroad you- this is something you made up because you can't fathom the idea of being able to leave the department if you want to. You can either stay or leave. Humans are social beings - why is it that you can't talk to people to tell them "hey I'm going on a break" on an online game? This is all it takes to leave the department. How are you being railroaded with this in mind?

First off, unrelated to this response specifically, you have previously said I did not read the PR and therefor was not worth responding to. Have you read the PR? It doesn't say anything descriptive about the intended changes other than add a bit of context to the photos pictured on it.

Had you read what else I said, and understood it, you would know that I mentioned and re-mentioned the fact you can leave the department at any time. So you're effectively ignoring or unaware of every instance of that and the points related to those instances, in order to try and hammer home the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about.

How do you not understand that by removing you from freeflow patrolling, and instead placing you within a department, is inherently limiting if you RP? Currently you are not expected to priortize any departments of the station without there being a threat. With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station. Unless you go on patrols anyways, in which case nothing changes and this idea leads nowhere with the exception of giving security more access to the station. So yes. Ask to go on breaks interact with other departments. But how is that a better alternative to just going to any department you choose currently and saying hello, asking if they need help or want to talk? Why do you so badly need the officer to be a part of that department rather than doing this of his own volition?

1 hour ago, Datamatt said:

I can't give you examples of how people roleplay. This is a stupid thing to ask for.

Do you see how in my post above I managed to list off examples? Why can't you?

1 hour ago, Datamatt said:

People will interact with you if you're part of the department. If you've ever played any other department, you'll know this. People of your same department react better to you attempting to make a conversation with them as opposed to if you weren't.

People will interact with you, regardless of what department you are in if you or them make an attempt to interact with you. Why do you need the status of "one of them" if this is about interdepartmental relations? You aren't really doing anything important for "departmental relations" if your arguement for this change is that if we give Sec IDs that say other Depts, they'll be accepted into the tribes. All that's doing is making them, parts of those departments. A very flimsy response to the apparent hostility towards Security. Why would the answer not be to just interact with others outside of an official capacity?  I guess this makes it easier? So the trade for better Sec relations is giving Sec total control of the station, because it's easier than encouraging a Sec culture that interacts with others outside a official capacity.

1 hour ago, Datamatt said:

"Arbitrary decision making of a few people" Yet I see the majority here being in clear support?

Most people here either don't actually know what the change entails or are making assumptions as to how it will effect them and open to a trial. But that doesn't change that when I said that, it was specifically in regards to the people working on this change. So you misunderstood.

[MattAtlas]

1 hour ago, AmoryBlaine said:

First off, unrelated to this response specifically, you have previously said I did not read the PR and therefor was not worth responding to. Have you read the PR? It doesn't say anything descriptive about the intended changes other than add a bit of context to the photos pictured on it.

Had you read what else I said, and understood it, you would know that I mentioned and re-mentioned the fact you can leave the department at any time. So you're effectively ignoring or unaware of every instance of that and the points related to those instances, in order to try and hammer home the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about.

How do you not understand that by removing you from freeflow patrolling, and instead placing you within a department, is inherently limiting if you RP? Currently you are not expected to priortize any departments of the station without there being a threat. With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station. Unless you go on patrols anyways, in which case nothing changes and this idea leads nowhere with the exception of giving security more access to the station. So yes. Ask to go on breaks interact with other departments. But how is that a better alternative to just going to any department you choose currently and saying hello, asking if they need help or want to talk? Why do you so badly need the officer to be a part of that department rather than doing this of his own volition?

Do you see how in my post above I managed to list off examples? Why can't you?

People will interact with you, regardless of what department you are in if you or them make an attempt to interact with you. Why do you need the status of "one of them" if this is about interdepartmental relations? You aren't really doing anything important for "departmental relations" if your arguement for this change is that if we give Sec IDs that say other Depts, they'll be accepted into the tribes. All that's doing is making them, parts of those departments. A very flimsy response to the apparent hostility towards Security. Why would the answer not be to just interact with others outside of an official capacity?  I guess this makes it easier? So the trade for better Sec relations is giving Sec total control of the station, because it's easier than encouraging a Sec culture that interacts with others outside a official capacity.

Most people here either don't actually know what the change entails or are making assumptions as to how it will effect them and open to a trial. But that doesn't change that when I said that, it was specifically in regards to the people working on this change. So you misunderstood.

 

It still holds true that you didn't read the PR. The code in the PR is very easy to understand. You don't need code knowledge to look at the files and go "Oh there's an engineering security headset now, and all other versions, so the security officer gets it now". Whereas in the discord you got told a complete lie about the PR and bought it instantly (stationbounced radios). But let's skip that. I'm willing to say it was just a fluke.

You said you can leave the department at any time. Then you go and say that you're removed from freeflow patrolling. No, you're not removed, it's just not the main focus anymore. It's really that simple. It's a better option because, like I said, you get to roleplay more with specific departments and the people in them. Also: freeflow patrolling as an RP tool is laughable. You damn well know that's just an excuse to do nothing, and patrolling doesn't lead to any RP in sec. You, chief among the people who go on "patrols" through maint then AFK at the end of hallways waiting for wardens to call people to the armory should know this. "Freeflow patrolling" is a flimsy excuse to hide behind when it consists in doing the same route every minute until something happens. You're not gonna lose on interaction because there was none with patrolling.

None of what I posted had any "need" in it. You keep saying how people "need" to be in this department for interaction, when that's just not true. Facilitating interaction isn't a bad thing. Just because I make something doesn't mean I make it because I need it.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

3 hours ago, Datamatt said:

It still holds true that you didn't read the PR. The code in the PR is very easy to understand. You don't need code knowledge to look at the files and go "Oh there's an engineering security headset now, and all other versions, so the security officer gets it now". Whereas in the discord you got told a complete lie about the PR and bought it instantly (stationbounced radios). But let's skip that. I'm willing to say it was just a fluke.

Geeves, the one making the PR, suggested SRBs, and changed his mind. You're acting as though him changing his mind reverts the fact that he was considering it at all. So you acting snarky about it, is just that. You acting snarky. "Heh, you didn't read the PR to check if he implemented what he suggested."

 

2 hours ago, Datamatt said:

You said you can leave the department at any time. Then you go and say that you're removed from freeflow patrolling.

Yes, because I'm pointing out how the only reasonable action is to leave your department and return to the current standard of play, because staying in your department is a detriment to your own capacity to interact with personnel. Maybe I'm writing in a manner that doesn't make sense, maybe you're misunderstanding me. Either way there is a failure to communicate the ideas from me to you.

3 hours ago, Datamatt said:

No, you're not removed, it's just not the main focus anymore.

Right, instead it's to be inside the Department. And to that I say, "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station.", which is a detriment to the overall capacity for one to RP. The other option is to leave your department and do what you currently do- which is patrol, and talk to people when I want to, from where I want to.

3 hours ago, Datamatt said:

It's a better option because, like I said, you get to roleplay more with specific departments and the people in them.

Yes, less people. A specific Department. Again, "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station."

3 hours ago, Datamatt said:

Also: freeflow patrolling as an RP tool is laughable. You damn well know that's just an excuse to do nothing, and patrolling doesn't lead to any RP in sec. You, chief among the people who go on "patrols" through maint then AFK at the end of hallways waiting for wardens to call people to the armory should know this. "Freeflow patrolling" is a flimsy excuse to hide behind when it consists in doing the same route every minute until something happens. You're not gonna lose on interaction because there was none with patrolling.

Isn't that depending on who your character is? Attempting to use me as some example of how worthless patrolling is for RP is as laughable as thinking that being expected to go wherever on the station under the guise of 'securing' and 'guarding' with no actual objective, isn't an open-ended opportunity to meet new people. When I play Sec, I afk a lot because I know most of the people already. And I don't feel like going through the motions because I have already built up rapport with the character to the point where I don't need to be talking to most people in order to gain their trust. On top of that, I am consistently drowsy throughout the day now, due to my health being poor for whatever reason, so I sometimes fall asleep for a few minutes at a time. On top of that, during the downtime I make room to sprite or write. Prior to Carmichael being solidified, and me not being a sick- physically ill- sick- cool- spriter, I spent nearly every round talking with the Service staff, or hanging out in the Medical lobby talking to people. If I found anything out of maintenance that looked techy, I'd spend awhile with the science staff talking about it, and then let them have it. No exchange of goods required. Engineering- as I already mentioned- was more than happy to let me help them with their generator set-ups back in the day, but mostly these days you don't see them.

But even so, let's say my character was a shy bookish man. Does him now occupying a Department somehow increase the likelihood of him interacting with those people, if he doesn't even want to talk to them in the first place? And of players, are the people that AFK just going to start not AFKing now that they get an office to themselves?

3 hours ago, Datamatt said:

None of what I posted had any "need" in it. You keep saying how people "need" to be in this department for interaction, when that's just not true. Facilitating interaction isn't a bad thing. Just because I make something doesn't mean I make it because I need it.

Facilitating interaction when it is to the detriment of overall inter-departmental relations is foolish- but on top of it being foolish, this does not solve what it sets out to do which is "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station.", because as we know, you can leave at any time you want and do what you currently do, or AFK in your own department.

It adds nothing new, it facilitates nothing that you cannot strive for currently, without greatly lowering the actual worth of the interaction.

I'm never going to support this. Add some offices, people may use them for RP of their own volition. Try to change the dynamic of Security by mechanically setting them as Departmental Officers? Only difference between now and then'll be where people AFK, and Sec not needing to ask to come into your Dept. People who don't interact now, won't interact then. People who do interact now, will be more streamlined since they have a pressure on them given they're assigned to a department- or they'll just do what they do currently and walk around talking to people the right way.

 

[Azande]

I like department sec but think that all officers should remain under the direct command of the Head of Security. We have a chain of command for a reason and fragmenting security under four other Heads of Staff doesn't seem that smart nor does any other company I can think of use this model.

[Nantei]

1 hour ago, Azande said:

I like department sec but think that all officers should remain under the direct command of the Head of Security. We have a chain of command for a reason and fragmenting security under four other Heads of Staff doesn't seem that smart nor does any other company I can think of use this model.

Cannot agree more with this. That will just make things incredibly confusing and make HoS very not fun to play. This would also make things incredibly confusing in emergencies.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Nantei

[Carver]

It amuses me that it's not understood just how strong of a buff this is to Security. Access to any department with an Officer, increased co-ordination with any department with an Officer, ability to disseminate information amongst these departments on a rapid scale, ability to gather information from these departments, extralegal access to these departments' equipment and so on. It's the wet dream of any HoS who understands how to work with all the aforementioned resources, giving them a power near that of the Captain if they and their Officers utilize these possibilities to their fullest extent.

I don't support Departmental Sec just because of the RP possibilities, and how it'd be a great effort to cripple departmental tribalism; I support it because it's one of the strongest imaginable buffs you could give to a department that's received nerf, after nerf, after nerf, after nerf for nearing on 5 years. Shove your loyalties out the door and understand that loyal informants and increased access across the board can only be a firm benefit to any team of professionals who know precisely what they're doing, or to any HoS with a semblance of cleverness.

[Peppermint]

My issues are as followed:

- Security does not need a buff. 

-The people who are currently not interacting will still not interact with you in your department. Departmental triablism is - in my opinion - worse for many of the other jobs. How many times do medical RP with anyone outside of treatment? How often do engineers do anything, ever, outside of their own field? Sec is not the only issue here and given the relative freedom there is, if anything, they're the least guilty of it.

- Forcing sec players into being desk staff because you're also bored of your job does not help anyone. If anything, it'll increase the amount of sec shitters as people grow restless when bored.

- People are constantly complaining about sec needing access to their departments. Constantly. It doesn't matter if you have a warrant. It doesn't matter if there's an active threat. People love to get huffy and this will only make the problem more severe. Hating sec is fashionable. 

- The core group of people who play sec tend to be fine. Yes, there are a few outliers and shitters, but that's exactly what IRs and player reports are for. Forcing the rest of us to change to what you deem better isn't even remotely fair compared to just dealing with those who are the problem.

- Sec is one of the very few roles where you're free to roam around the station and socialise until something comes up. Forcing people into departments to go through the same boring armchair RP isn't productive. If the players wanted that, they're free to play another darn role. 

- This honestly makes coordination a fucking nightmare in ways I'd hope are really quite obvious. 

- People keep complaining that sec doesn't interact with other departments, yet this is a two-way street. If you want to RP with an officer, go ahead and do so. Nothing is stopping you. I've lost track of the number of times I've been called to a department, sorted out the issue, tried to interact further and been immediately told to get out. This isn't going to change. 

A possible fix would to do it like Bay does (did?) and have a separate role between sec officers and department guards. That way those who actually want this kind of RP can choose accordingly, whilst not bootlegging everyone else into doing the same. Just add another drop-down to the 'sec officer' section like multiple other roles have. I honestly feel like this change really would not fix anything.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Lemei

[AmoryBlaine]

20 hours ago, Carver said:

It amuses me that it's not understood just how strong of a buff this is to Security. Access to any department with an Officer, increased co-ordination with any department with an Officer, ability to disseminate information amongst these departments on a rapid scale, ability to gather information from these departments, extralegal access to these departments' equipment and so on.

That is the issue.

20 hours ago, Carver said:

I don't support Departmental Sec just because of the RP possibilities

Citation needed.

20 hours ago, Carver said:

it'd be a great effort to cripple departmental tribalism

Does the opposite by further reinforcing department isolationism. "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station."

20 hours ago, Carver said:

I support it because it's one of the strongest imaginable buffs you could give to a department that's received nerf, after nerf, after nerf, after nerf for nearing on 5 years.

And this is not the type of buff Security needs.

20 hours ago, Carver said:

Shove your loyalties out the door and understand that loyal informants and increased access across the board can only be a firm benefit to any team of professionals who know precisely what they're doing, or to any HoS with a semblance of cleverness.

Again, this is not a good thing. Security should not be a constant presence across the station's departments.

 

[Nantei]

52 minutes ago, Lemei said:

- People keep complaining that sec doesn't interact with other departments, yet this is a two-way street. If you want to RP with an officer, go ahead and do so. Nothing is stopping you. I've lost track of the number of times I've been called to a department, sorted out the issue, tried to interact further and been immediately told to get out. This isn't going to change. 

A lot of good players will situate themselves somewhere public for this reason. Most of Security does not sit in Security itself, because that's boring. I want to talk with people. My most passive position in Security is watching cameras, and as a Detective I almost always choose to do that at the front desk so that if anyone wants to, they can come to the lobby and we can talk. I don't think this really fixes the problems people have laid out, especially because—as you said—a lot of these problems are absolutely not exclusive to Security. But I am not opposed to at least trying it to see if it works, worst case we have some crappy rounds and we (hopefully) learn that the idea just does not work.

[Crozarius]

58 minutes ago, Lemei said:

- Forcing sec players into being desk staff because you're also bored of your job does not help anyone. If anything, it'll increase the amount of sec shitters as people grow restless when bored.

Department Sec will not be handcuffed to their office. They are permitted to leave their department in the same way that Security right now are allowed to leave the Security Wing. 

[JMJ_99]

8 hours ago, Crozarius said:

Department Sec will not be handcuffed to their office. They are permitted to leave their department in the same way that Security right now are allowed to leave the Security Wing. 

Then there is no point to this change if it adds nothing but a buff to security that is better spent on something better thought out.

Edited October 30, 2019 by JMJ_99

[ben10083]

13 hours ago, Crozarius said:

Department Sec will not be handcuffed to their office. They are permitted to leave their department in the same way that Security right now are allowed to leave the Security Wing. 

Yet their jurisdiction only resides in that department, which in cases of engineering, means you are responsible for watching over an area that is clear of life usually after the first 20 minutes. Which means that the officer cannot do anything for the rest of the round (no, the small chance of antags messing with engine is not sufficent reason to be in engineering for over 2 hrs). So basically all this change does is make security officer extremly boring depending on the department you were assigned to.

[geeves]

Coding reminder that getting assigned to a certain department is opt-in. You have to specifically ready for the departmental roles you want to get.