The Place of The Quartermaster

[Snakebittenn]

I couldn't be fucked to search back 47 pages to find if someone has talked about this before, so here we are.

I feel as if the Quartermaster is in a legitimately awful place conceptually speaking. You have the HoP, who has complete and utter control over all affairs revolving around Cargo/Service as well as a litany of other things they can do. They cannot be swayed by anyone other than the Captain rankwise, and can flex on literally everyone under them. Meanwhile, you have the Lesser HoP that can do.. exactly none of those things. The QM only has soft control over CTs/Miners, and can be flexed on by pretty much anyone except an assistant. Their role is largely superfluous, and I'd like to open a discussion (open-ended, I don't have a mission in mind here) about their role and how it could be fixed.

[AmoryBlaine]

I mean, we could make them operate similar to the warden but for mining. Maybe rebalance the mining vendor to only have certain upgrades but have the RIG, ect in the QM's area or something. They could use more authority though. Just for it.

[Rosetango]

Honestly, I feel that the QM, given our large playerbase and how big cargo can get, could be given command status again... but, that's least preferable.

The only other alternative would be giving QM somewhat Command authority, only over the cargo department, and all decisions can easily be overruled by HoP if necessary. ISD could, would, and should respect QM's orders to assist them in demoting their own staff (Cargo techs, Miners). Basically command authority but it's only restricted to the cargo department and is actually enforced, it's overseen by HoP as it always would be.

[AmoryBlaine]

2 minutes ago, Rosetango said:

The only other alternative would be giving QM somewhat Command authority, only over the cargo department, and all decisions can easily be overruled by HoP if necessary. ISD could, would, and should respect QM's orders to assist them in demoting their own staff (Cargo techs, Miners). Basically command authority but it's only restricted to the cargo department and is actually enforced, it's overseen by HoP as it always would be.

This is reasonable, and I personally operate with this in mind currently. I'm going to assume we don't actually have this written down anywhere, so I suggest we do that.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The qm is important for delegation. Putting it all on the hop would be sooo much. Source: im a hop main

[Brutishcrab51]

Just give the QM the ability to administrate Cargo. He's not upper management, he's middle-management. The Warden but his authority is actually written down, and the HoP handles him and the Civilian 'department'.

[Nantei]

53 minutes ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

Just give the QM the ability to administrate Cargo. He's not upper management, he's middle-management. The Warden but his authority is actually written down, and the HoP handles him and the Civilian 'department'.

Agreed. This is how it should be, and sort of how it works now, but it isn't written down anywhere.

[Garnascus]

You should at least be able to reasonably deny orders without security arresting you for it. 

[Doxxmedearly]

In theory, yes, Garn. In practice, not how it seems to work, especially when it comes to security's own orders. 

17 hours ago, Rosetango said:

The only other alternative would be giving QM somewhat Command authority, only over the cargo department, and all decisions can easily be overruled by HoP if necessary. ISD could, would, and should respect QM's orders to assist them in demoting their own staff (Cargo techs, Miners). Basically command authority but it's only restricted to the cargo department and is actually enforced, it's overseen by HoP as it always would be.

I like this. HoP and Captain still has the last say, but QM actually has some sort of say in matters relating to their department. Giving them full command is much, and this seems like a decent middle ground to actually giving them some sort of authority. 

[Cnaym]

Good meme Garn.

Okay let's talk this over.

The QM is one of the RP roles that is focused on being consistent and useful. That means I have three miners and not one of them gives a single fuck about QMs. So cutting of mining from them would already solve one of my main issues. Next step would be to ask what we want a QM to do. A cheff asking 50 people for dinner requests gets two responses and the QM gets even less if he asks around what people need.

Access to the cargo account is a joke because everyone can work the console if they forget to close the program again.

Deciding bonus payouts to people helping and miners selling? People tried, they where yelled at a lot.

Teaching new CTs to do their job? They are able to do that if they want.

Be relevant and have responsibility? Okay this one is hard for me. Not going to point fingers but the usual QM is the person who is either very new and wants to have power or the person you'd not want to see with a command whitelist at all.

Now what would make them useful without making it a job that we really need to have a good player in?

Guns to arm miners against carps would be funny, but people usually get nervous with having more guns around.

Make decisions? What decisions? The usual QM is already trying so hard to decide things... And fails.

QM would be a job I wouldn't miss at all really since it currently adds nothing positive for me. If you play one that is well known and handy with words, who command trusts and gives tasks and responsibility... Please tell me the name as I'd love to see them in game. But the way I experience them they should be added to the command whitelist or maybe only be able to become one via in round means -> HoP or Captain, before being given any responsibility.

[Snakebittenn]

How about, yes, the QM's authority over their crew, department, and approving/denying orders is absolute unless overridden by the HoP?

[Nantei]

1 hour ago, Garnascus said:

You should at least be able to reasonably deny orders without security arresting you for it. 

They can. So long as it isn't a head making the order. I don't see this as an issue. A head could order a Warden to do things they find distasteful, as they could a Scientist. Don't ignore a head's valid orders and you will be fine?

Also head's should be able to act upon a QM if there is no HoP. Saying only one of the less common head roles can override is very silly and will lead to frustrating scenarios on dead hour with people rules lawyering.

The chain of command for it doesn't need changing. Captain>HoP>Any other Head>QM>Cargo employees.

This feels more like a knee-jerk reaction to the recent complaint you made. If a head gives you orders you don't like, and you refuse them, expect ic consequences. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Nantei

[Garnascus]

You should at least be able to deny orders filed by the head of security too without being afraid he will arrest you if you do not fill it. 

This actually happened. 

[Snakebittenn]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in non-HoP/Captain heads being able to make unreasonable orders just due to their status as a head.

[Arrow768]

Moved this to policy suggestions.
We (Headmins/devs + CCIABS) are currently discussing what exactly the purpose of the QM is and what liberty they have in relation to employees / heads of staff.

With the current directives / chain of command the following is the case:
The QM is the superior of the cargo techs / shaft miners (as defined via directive 3, join text and the chain of command)
This means the Chain of Command for cargo is as follows: Captain -> HoP -> Other Heads -> QM -> Cargo Techs / Shaft Miners.
Therefore failing to fulfill a order (which can be fulfilled, has been filed properly and paid for) after one of your superiors ordered you to fulfill it, is considered failure to execute an order.
However if your character has a good IC reason to deny that order they can contact the HoP / Captain for clarification (as they are above the other heads of staff).

If a non-head of staff orders something, the QM can do with that order as they please, as the person ordering it, is not a superior to the QM (and therefore can not order them to fulfill a order).

In addition, if a cargo tech / shaft miner fails to execute a order given by the QM they can be charged with failure to execute an order.

For Reference:
https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Chain_of_Command
https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Station_Directives

[Arrow768]

After discussion the following change will be implemented:

• Heads of staff will no longer be able to issue work orders to employees from other departments.

This solves the issue that the HoS is able to give the QM a valid order which has to be executed by them.
Any employee is able to ignore work orders given to them by other heads of staff in standard operation, unless they act with captain authority once the changes are implemented.

The directives and chain of command will be updated to reflect this and a announcement will be made once the changes have been fully implemented.

[Scheveningen]

That's an absolutely fucking terrible thing to take away from this. That has literally nothing to do with the QM and is not going to fix any of the issues with the QM, how shit cargo is to play compared to when we used the points system. The only person who can reign in security officers now is the HOS. I've always been an advocate that other heads of staff could order around officers so long as the order was reasonable and valid.

Heads of staff abusing their authority can be charged under regulations for i214 (This is for any head of staff who abuses the power given to them, such as the Head of Personnel acting like a security officer in a non-emergency, the captain acting as if he is above the law, etc. Heads of Staff trying to order a different department or ignoring the captain also comes under this. Also covers anyone illegally promoting themselves, such as with a stolen ID.)

Meaning it's already been a crime, but it's intentionally situational that heads of staff are faux-allowed to do it to give them flexibility in good-intentioned situations like emergencies or morally grey situations. Now you're taking away their flexibility, just because a minority of heads of staff whose whitelist should probably be stripped, is fucking up badly with the authority they're misusing? This is stupid. This is the equivalent of punishing an entire battalion with mandatory resilience training because 2 people killed themselves in the past year.

[Nantei]

4 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

After discussion the following change will be implemented:

• Heads of staff will no longer be able to issue work orders to employees from other departments.

This solves the issue that the HoS is able to give the QM a valid order which has to be executed by them.
Any employee is able to ignore work orders given to them by other heads of staff in standard operation, unless they act with captain authority once the changes are implemented.

The directives and chain of command will be updated to reflect this and a announcement will be made once the changes have been fully implemented.

I... what? That makes no sense at all. So if I have security trying to arrest a Wizard, as an RD, I have to asert acting Captain to tell them to stop? That's pretty bad. We're going to see a lot more acting captains if we do this.

Also, this will mean an HoS can no longer order a department to let Forensics in to handle a crime scene. A CMO cannot order a scientist to let the paramedic into xenobiology. HoS cannot order you to open so that they can deal with dangerous people. This is a really bad idea. If there is no HoS, there is nobody to reign in security if they are acting poorly, unless you go through the process of electing an acting captain, and then you still have to argue with them that you are and often verify this. 

A much better change would be that a head's order for the department is not valid unless there is not a fit-for-command head for that department already. So the HoS can't go over the HoP's head, etc. 

 

This has not been a significant problem until now, and I see no reason this should not stay an IC problem. Heads are already susceptible to being arrested for abusing their powers icly, and can also have their whitelist stripped for it. This is not a common enough issue that such a large change needs to happen.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Nantei

[stev]

1 minute ago, Nantei said:

Also, this will mean an HoS can no longer order a department to let Forensics in to handle a crime scene. A CMO cannot order a scientist to let the paramedic into xenobiology. HoS cannot order you to open so that they can deal with dangerous people. This is a really bad idea.

I'm backing Nantei and people on this one. This has a lot of really stupid implications, especially given this will force heads of staff to ratchet up alert statuses and claim acting captaincy just to be able to order people to not do stupid things without committing a chargeable offence.

[Scheveningen]

As above. You're literally only appeasing assholes who want any excuse to not do their job, Arrow.

[stev]

Sorry for double-posting but something occurred to me. Assistants will need to be officially put into a department (probably Service) or the only person they can legally take orders from will be the Captain.

[geeves]

8 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

After discussion the following change will be implemented:

• Heads of staff will no longer be able to issue work orders to employees from other departments.

This solves the issue that the HoS is able to give the QM a valid order which has to be executed by them.
Any employee is able to ignore work orders given to them by other heads of staff in standard operation, unless they act with captain authority once the changes are implemented.

The directives and chain of command will be updated to reflect this and a announcement will be made once the changes have been fully implemented.

Hard pass on this one. Don't unscrew a philips with an orbital laser.

[Faris]

10 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

After discussion the following change will be implemented:

• Heads of staff will no longer be able to issue work orders to employees from other departments.

This solves the issue that the HoS is able to give the QM a valid order which has to be executed by them.
Any employee is able to ignore work orders given to them by other heads of staff in standard operation, unless they act with captain authority once the changes are implemented.

The directives and chain of command will be updated to reflect this and a announcement will be made once the changes have been fully implemented.

This won't change much. Directive two will be officially used more.

 

I just think QM's should not face repercussions from command staff barring the HoP/Captain if they refuse cargo orders. It's effectively their prerogative to accept or deny orders.

Perhaps the only exceptions is if they refused to grant orders for items on code red.

[ben10083]

Side note: please don't just blame arrow, as he said some staff talked about it and decided this was the way to go. Also keep in mind that above situations such as the paramedic being denied access to a department is extremely unlikely to happen, and if it does, the person(s) refusing to allow the person in could be charged with a crime (such as manslaughter if the person died as a result.)

[ben10083]

11 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

You will pay around 156-166 credits for a single bar of soap ordered from CentComm. Why -- you ask, because a bar of soap is supposed to be 6 credits, you say. WRONG. That is the actual price of a bar of soap if you order it from CentComm. Enjoy that premium bar of soap.

Your welcome, it was made straight out of Upsilon

In all seriousness, the drawbacks of cargo is fit for another thread (not to say they are not a issue, quite the contrary)