On the Subject of Ta (Vaurca Breeder Consulars)

[Alberyk]

Just now, Bygonehero said:

 

Additionally, you mentioned that it felt forced, but you are ok with them having a consular if it isnt a Ta? Wouldn't that still not solve the issue of it feeling forced? 

It would far less straining if it was not a breeder. I am fine with them having a consular officer, but not with the breeder as it is.

[EmperorVoyd]

So if the critter was small like everyone else but say, still had wings and shit, would they still be an issue?  Is there any other real argument being pushed? far as I see it, the complaint mainly revolves around how big they are. Splash all the lore excuses you want, they can easily be rewritten and changed, this is about size, nothing more.

In such that it diminishes the impact of other large critters that were reserved for special events,  I feel like the beating around the bush issue here is that in the world of competition between who has the bigger lore dick, big icons are high up on that status symbol, Big icon, Big dick, swing it, War-forms,  Tanks, "big swinging icon dicks", and now that status symbol has been taken, that uniqueness of seeing large creatures is now  very much a common reality now on the station and it belongs to one segment of the lore, one species, and that means they possess the largest throbbing icon dick of all, because you can't bring the tank every time, you can't bring [Insert whatever retarded gimmick large icon] every time.

But the bugs can.

When will IPC's "Lore creep" in size, I want to see car-sized IPC rolling around the station, maybe 12ft "mecha" type.
 

[Scheveningen]

53 minutes ago, EmperorVoyd said:

So if the critter was small like everyone else but say, still had wings and shit, would they still be an issue?

I guarantee you that the answer would be, "No, it wouldn't." Hence the meaningless nature of going after this. And hell, let's address some specific aspects highlighted in the OP.

1. The shock surrounding the appearance of the Ta.
This theme is pretty heavily touched on in our own narrative surrounding the Vaurcae in addition to its grander inspiration of media known as "District 9." There are a lot of similarities between District 9's setting/plot and the situation with the Vaurcae right now. You know there is, don't deny this, it's perfectly fine that the similarities exist. It allows us to tell a grander story, however, as there are other stories juxtapositioned alongside it such as the plight of synthetics, the would-be imperialistic nature of the Sol Alliance, and the general interests of the other factions and how the Vaurcae tie into their own (such as the Hegemony with the K'lax or the Skrell with the C'thur).

And yeah, the Vaurcae are freakish in appearance. The nature of their hives and unconditional loyalty to their queens makes them rather different from typical sentients, but they are sentients nonetheless that can still empathize and sympathize, though the capacity of each Vaurcae being able or even familiar with that concept varies from bug to bug. It ends up being a lesson on its own not to judge a book by its own cover, because Vaurcae characters can be surprisingly deep and interesting. It's kind of difficult to beat the aspect out of people to think "lol silly appearance better generalize and make fun of it". Some people have even more insidious agendas such as still wanting the Vaurcae of now to be removed from the server. This was understandable awhile back when the Vaurcae had absolutely no direction to go off of and they nearly turned out to be Aurora's biggest mistake in development. By virtue of a few community members, they were saved and put back on the track that we know them as now. I'd say the investment paid off.

2. Asking Vaurcae players for specific stories while not asking Vaurcae detractors for specific negative experiences they had.
Yeah, this is kind of an inconsistency here. I'm willing to guess that if no Vaurcae regular was able to recall specific experiences they had with Ta that were positive apart from general feelings/thoughts, then not a single detractor of the Ta could come up with a single experience either apart from "Breeder (wo)man bad". One could even argue that asking for specific experiences is a very tentative thing to do as well, considering that not everyone has an Eidetic memory and most people tend to move on from rounds they enjoyed, compared to situations where it's easier to remember what you hated experiencing.

3. Scope of feedback is limited because this is something that likely arised as a barrage of complaining overnight rather than an issue that's been tracked for awhile.
As above. I don't think the complaints are structured enough to be taken seriously, as this is the first I've heard that anyone dislikes the Ta as Consuls, and the only issue that's happened as a result of them was someone who played as one and disarm spammed (which, was engaging in combat. that's nonsensical).

[Mofo1995]

37 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

3. Scope of feedback is limited because this is something that likely arised as a barrage of complaining overnight rather than an issue that's been tracked for awhile.
As above. I don't think the complaints are structured enough to be taken seriously, as this is the first I've heard that anyone dislikes the Ta as Consuls, and the only issue that's happened as a result of them was someone who played as one and disarm spammed (which, was engaging in combat. that's nonsensical).

This thread has been weeks in the making, as I stated in the OP. I had told Bygone a long time ago that I was going to make this thread. The complaints have been nonstop since the same day breeders were introduced, so it wasn't cooked up overnight. I did let the issue sit for a few weeks for the express benefit of vaurca players. I figured I'd give it a few weeks, let them get their foot in the door, see what Ta are like when they roleplay. On the day they were introduced there was a strong reaction by some, myself included, to remove them, but a quick 180 like that wouldn't have been very considerate.

On the subject of specific stories, I was hoping that people could tell me about their experiences in a manner that informs me on why they're beneficial for roleplay. Chiefly, I wanted to get a better understanding of why their appearance is necessary to contribute to their role on the station and how it might better contribute to their roleplay. I figured, okay, maybe if someone talked to me about why it was necessary through a story of an experience they had, it would be more powerful and compelling evidence to convince me than speaking entirely in the realm of the theoretical. I don't think appearance is something entirely superfluous though. There is an argument to be made for consistency and tolerable boundaries. Though I have the fashion sense of a beach bum, so I can't really find that line, just point at things I think are too much and screech. One common phrase I've had thrown at me over the past few weeks was "We're not citadel/Vore/what have you with large sprite characters and bizarre ayyliums." 

So anyways, the only people I heard calling for their removal were other staff members, and the only people I heard calling for their staying was their devs and players. The purpose of this thread is so I can figure out what the wider general community thinks, since it wouldn't be very practical or unbiased if I started PMing "random" people to ask them their thoughts. Personally, I'm most perturbed by their size, which is something that Vaurca devs were totally willing to scale down. In DMs, I've learned that the reason they weren't was because Bygone had not been able to find a spriter, which is hardly his fault. I think my OP was a bit pointed and blamey on that subject, since I think I made assumptions on that one. [Edit: Oh, apparently they did get one! I just read his reply in this thread. It slipped under my radar, but I appreciate him posting it again.]

Edited September 14, 2019 by Mofo1995

[Mofo1995]

2 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

(or else I will beat up the OP with my huge muscles)

fite me ?‍♂️

[Scheveningen]

4 minutes ago, Mofo1995 said:

On the subject of specific stories, I was hoping that people could tell me about their experiences in a manner that informs me on why they're beneficial for roleplay. Chiefly, I wanted to get a better understanding of why their appearance is necessary to contribute to their role on the station and how it might better contribute to their roleplay. I figured, okay, maybe if someone talked to me about why it was necessary through a story of an experience they had, it would be more powerful and compelling evidence to convince me than speaking entirely in the realm of the theoretical. I don't think appearance is something entirely superfluous though. There is an argument to be made for consistency and tolerable boundaries. Though I have the fashion sense of a beach bum, so I can't really find that line, just point at things I think are too much and screech. One common phrase I've had thrown at me over the past few weeks was "We're not citadel/Vore/what have you with large sprite characters and bizarre ayyliums." 

The problem with this is hinging on allegorical examples on either side to determine whether a feature should stay or go. Alb's pretty much the only I've seen with structured reasoning so far, even if I disagree with it. I'd like to see other arguments from detractors -- hopefully ones that don't sum up to "We're not Citadel/vore/etc so it should go". Because no fucking shit we're not, nobody is ERPing with breeders on-station or vice-versa. There's a lot of hilarious discussion about Xetl that goes on sometimes but that's the nature of player implications/memes and not what actually happens.

Either way, I do think the Ta Consulars are a big deal, but there's immense responsibility at the same time which makes it easy enough to fuck up if one doesn't know what they are doing. The ones from Athvur's brood are pretty important, considering they're essentially humanophiles that want badly to fit into the society they've been forced to migrate into, because they think it's the easiest way to prosper. @SleepyWolf plays Avaricee, a great example of a Ta from Athvur's brood. I also play one but I've been unable to get as many rounds in as my own Athvur-repping Consul, but I've otherwise really enjoyed the experience and I think others did too. A major part of making the Ta consuls work is making each one feel like they have enough depth and investment in the first place to seem like they are worth interacting with. They're much trickier to get right, but the ones that do pay off really well in terms of roleplaying enjoyment.

I also think someone making the comparison of the Tas to creatures from Citadel is particularly disingenuous to the conversation. I get it's a common accusation that someone must somehow have a sexual gratification agenda to want to enjoy something weird and unusual that the detractor themselves is not interested in interacting with, but it is certainly not true in this case. I hate to downplay people's concerns about things even if they are completely legitimate, but I cannot help but think that if someone's position on a matter sums up to accusing people of fulfilling a kink, or someone is playing a character concept merely to acquire attention, or that it "reinforces clique behavior", somehow, then that person's argument should be dismissed and the person themselves should be ignored. As that kind of person is just whining about things they don't personally like, rather than having a good reason for why something should be removed.

[Mofo1995]

9 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

I'd like to see other arguments from detractors -- hopefully ones that don't sum up to "We're not Citadel/vore/etc so it should go". Because no fucking shit we're not, nobody is ERPing with breeders on-station or vice-versa. 

I get it's a common accusation that someone must somehow have a sexual gratification agenda to want to enjoy something weird and unusual that the detractor themselves is not interested in interacting with, but it is certainly not true in this case. I hate to downplay people's concerns about things even if they are completely legitimate, but I cannot help but think that if someone's position on a matter sums up to accusing people of fulfilling a kink, or someone is playing a character concept merely to acquire attention, or that it "reinforces clique behavior", somehow, then that person's argument should be dismissed and the person themselves should be ignored. 

Man, I'm not even remotely joking when I say I seriously hope no one utilizes, uh, Ta for uh, that kind of thing. Not that I think anyone is! B-baka!

I don't really think anyone is making the assertion that giant bug vaurca are a sexual kink when they send me those kinds of comments, so much as [lamenting] about the normalization of the fantastic. Namely, see Voyd's post above for reference about the kind of arguments that would accompany the remarks, but with less mentions of big swinging dicks.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Mofo1995

[Scheveningen]

Oh, yeah, I wasn't saying you thought it. I have heard it from the mouth of certain people before, so consider this a call-out post on my twitter.com against them.

[NerdyVampire]

The few times I've seen and interacted with them have been a pleasure. I trust people who take them to know their lore and be able to roleplay properly. To me it would be a shame to remove them, I really enjoy getting their perspective on things and frankly they are the most interesting consular officers we got. Their size is really not an issue to me, and I just assume they are past their breeding age if they prioritize visiting Aurora.

[Roostercat]

9 hours ago, Mofo1995 said:

I actually had a Ta interject into a shootout I started with security just yesterday [Edit: Actually, two days ago]. It kept chasing me and disarm spamming me, and at some point it even said it would shield the officers and kept getting in front of them to take my shots. Once the fighting wound down a bit, and security and I pulled back from each other on account of robusting each other, it followed me solo while I was over a screen away from security and disarm spammed my fireaxe away. The entire fight it was in my face disarm spamming me for my fireaxe while I was shooting/axing security, and it when it kept getting in my way and fighting me.

Well in that case whoever that was needs to lose their whitelist. Ta are NOT supposed to get i to anything violent or put themselves in harm’s way. That was straight failrp

[Bygonehero]

Ta occupy a specific place in Vaurca lore, one that is largely unexplored. The point of the consular is a Lore heavy role, one that showcases your knowledge of that lore to other people. Its mechanics, are based upon lore. Changing it to something other than Ta would defeat this point, and achieve nothing but doing more of the same thing that other jobs already experience. There is a reason only Zo'ra have consulars. There is a reason the others are represented by other species.

If their themes of being disadvantaged and underprivileged exist, then so too does the few Vaurca who are at the bounds of that society, that challenge those assumptions. This exists in the form of Ta. 

 

It doesn't detract from their story. It doesn't detract from monstrous things. What is and isn't a monster is entirely subjective so what is monstrous to you may not be monstrous to me. Calling into question what is and isn't one is good roleplay. The process of normalization, of embedding Vaurca into Tau Ceti is encapsulized in this job. The social complexity of living with aliens isn't handwaved away. It doesn't exist simply because it was deigned to, no. The reasons you hate it are the VERY reasons its good for roleplay, good for scifi, good for space opera. It packages uncomfortable social issues, Fear of the unknown, of the other, of the disenfranchised in a way that can play out on the station. @Mofo1995 @Alberyk

[Bygonehero]

7 hours ago, EmperorVoyd said:

So if the critter was small like everyone else but say, still had wings and shit, would they still be an issue?  Is there any other real argument being pushed? far as I see it, the complaint mainly revolves around how big they are. Splash all the lore excuses you want, they can easily be rewritten and changed, this is about size, nothing more.

Easily fixed, and yes, I think its mostly about size myself, that is why for almost two months before their implementation I showcased the sprite, its creation process, the general idea of it to both the public and staff. Not once prior to its implementation were any issues about the sprite brought to my attention. It was only after it was merged and used that any detraction's made. In the rush to resolve their issues, I have made the sprite 32x32 despite being a fairly bad spriter.

Lore creep doesn't exist, and if it did, Vaurca would not be the ones guilty of it. 

To give people choices, in what organizations and places that they can be a part of, or even come from, there is no other species more limited. In my tenure as Vaurca maintainer, The widest narrative brush was painted within Tau Ceti, because Players deserve Interesting Places to be from. Players deserve lore that isn't JUST a single slum on a single planet and everyone lives in the same area in the same way. It isn't lore creep to give places to players, so that they can embody their own narrative in it. 

Such a thing is done with every single species to a greater extent than Vaurca, and the stories that they can and can't tell is one reason why having such a limited narrative scope is bad. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Bygonehero

[BoryaTheSlayer]

19 hours ago, Happy_Fox said:

I agree that Breeders are an odd choice for a representative - as representatives they're meant to represent interests in an alien environment, to be a go-between for their potentially less diplomatic faction members - not as an exaggerated display of their "alieness". Personally I like the fact they look horrific - but not that this is something worn openly. If the argument is that Ta are needed as they're the most diplomatic then they would try to counter any issues faced with this.

I think a good solution would be to provide Ta with an "encounter suit" to hide their appearance from everyday crew. If you've ever seen Babylon 5, there are a species called the Vorlon who have a similar issue with sending representatives - so their ambassador wears an "encounter suit" to mask their appearance. This keeps an air of mystery about what they look like under the outfit (retcon that they're rarely seen outside the suits when in alien space) and keeps them looking horrific if the suits are ever removed.

Considering a lot of people here have expressed their issue with the representatives being breeders, and after seeing the points that people have made, I'm inclined to agree that this could be a very cool way of going about it.
That being said, though, I'd rather not see people's characters get yeeted because of this because the RP with all the vaurca reps is very fun.

[CommanderXor]

Personally, I have yet to see the Ta on station besides a single occurrence in the lobby, so my experience isn't as detailed as the others. However, I do believe that the Ta should remain on the server, they're a interesting concept and imo better than just 'lol i am from the guvernments'. Like, they're actually unique compared to the others and can drive more interaction than your typical Consular. I'd like to see em kept, though I would like to also see people play them more.

[Azande]

If Ta were removed, I probably would not bother playing Vaurca Consular Agent because nobody would find me interesting or worth talking to.

[FreshRefreshments]

I like them. I think they're interesting, and Bygone has explained why they are the way they are. "Encounter Suits" could also be a cool concept, but I don't think its needed. 

[Yonnimer]

From a station-side perspective Ta seem fine to me. They give some unique roleplay given they are giant bugs that other bugs look up to.

I can't comment much on the lore side of things regarding them though.

[JKJudgeX]

I have enjoyed my interaction with them so far, but I don't yet know any of the mechanical differences between them and other crew, if there are any.

The only issues I have with xeno crew is when they are mechanically superior to others in big ways, and this is not something where I think the Ta differ greatly.  Having a psychic communication ability with other members of your species, IMO, is very bad because it creates a clique, provides ways to bypass communication barriers, etc.  Being stronger or tougher, like Unathi, leads to powergaming concerns and poor RP situations like "why would you ever fight my character, he's 7 feet tall and made of muscles so he would never lose to you," - which is just lame.  In short, there's nothing I would change about the Ta that I wouldn't change about Vaurca in general (they have some kinda mary-sue lore going on IMO, but that's another entire discussion and one I'm not going to delve into again).

That being said, all I've seen Ta doing is looking strange, talking to people, and hosting D&D sessions, and actually RPing quite well with other people, so, as long as they don't start showing up in droves and such, I'm 100% okay with them and appreciate them on the station - despite them having the mechanical advantages of other Vaurca - but that's beyond the scope of this post and something that could eventually be fixed prety easily if anyone agreed.

As far as appearance, the sprite isn't super horrible but an update would be welcome.  They are a little large and attention-drawing, and I think we would do well to have an upper height and size limit for crew just for realism purposes.  

So, if anything, maybe a little bit of rework, but I really dislike the idea of outright removal of most things.  If they become too populated on the server, it seems like an additional whitelist could be used to slim that down while still providing players who are interested in playing this an avenue to do so.

Edited September 14, 2019 by JKJudgeX

[GreenBoi]

I'm going to ignore comments about Ta being big and scary because Ta are usually 9-11ft, which is big, yeah, but then you remember there's been tanks that run through the station and Warforms, which are almost twice as large as a Ta (15-17ft). Sure, Ta are big and scary and shit, but the Aurora is a research station, seeing big aliens should be a norm, and Breeders fit the role perfectly given that they are born more socially-knowledgeable than any other caste.

 

Making the Vaurca Consular a random Ka with one or two Za guards would do nothing because each Ka from a Hive is already, in a way, representing their Hive. Ka and such are too busy working, which is what they are tasked with normally. A Ta is respected more among all vaurcae (you will rarely see a vaurca insult a breeder from another hive on hivenet, everyone knows it'd be a dumb move, unlike insulting a normal Ka), and like I said earlier, they are basically born social, given that they must birth and command their own batch of vaurcae too.

 

With that said, I will use the rest of this post to reply to JK's comment.

32 minutes ago, JKJudgeX said:

I have enjoyed my interaction with them so far, but I don't yet know any of the mechanical differences between them and other crew, if there are any.

The only issues I have with xeno crew is when they are mechanically superior to others in big ways, and this is not something where I think the Ta differ greatly.  Having a psychic communication ability with other members of your species, IMO, is very bad because it creates a clique, provides ways to bypass communication barriers, etc. In short, there's nothing I would change about the Ta that I wouldn't change about Vaurca in general (they have some kinda mary-sue lore going on IMO, but that's another entire discussion and one I'm not going to delve into again).

Vaurcae are not OP or really that strong, infact, I'd say they are the weakest species. I will repeat this until I die. When you are unwhitelisted and hear what vaurcae have, you think it is insane and that they should be nerfed. Once you actually play vaurcae, they are the worst species for combat. If they don't have blinders, you can easily blind them, they can't self-regenerate damage, and the only thing that stops their bleeding is k'ois or some form of bandage, whether it be ghetto or normal. They also take twice as much toxins, both Workers and Warriors take 50% and 20% extra burn damage respectively, and there's also the fact people are less willing to save a vaurca in general.

 

Their Hivenet can help for them to help eachother, but...AIs and Borgs can read Hivenet messages, so you can't really plot much with any AI that's actually reading chat because they can report super suspicious shit to Security or Command. And while vaurcae can relay shit to others, that doesn't mean much because you can easily plot around that. Don't say any sensitive shit about your plans to the bug, and just be smart about not telling them much of anything. Plan around these traits, Vaurcae are the only real race that have this anyways.

 

And yes, I know that IPCs also don't self-regenerate, are EVA-proof (in some circumstances without a cooler, but all circumstances with one), and can be memed with flashes, but they can't bleed at all, nanopaste is super-tricord to them, and they can't fucking feel pain or need to care about sympathy.

 

46 minutes ago, JKJudgeX said:

 Being stronger or tougher, like Unathi, leads to powergaming concerns and poor RP situations like "why would you ever fight my character, he's 7 feet tall and made of muscles so he would never lose to you," - which is just lame. 

But why WOULD you fucking try to fight an 8ft tall bug in Security with mandibles capable of biting your head off? If you find it concerning, stay out of melee range if they're bigger than you because that'd be tactically worse icly if you didn't.

51 minutes ago, JKJudgeX said:

So, if anything, maybe a little bit of rework, but I really dislike the idea of outright removal of most things.  If they become too populated on the server, it seems like an additional whitelist could be used to slim that down while still providing players who are interested in playing this an avenue to do so.

Ta are locked behind two whitelists, one of which is a whitelist for an alien species played by few people. Most vaurcae you see on manifest are from the same few people who just like the species or characters or just people whom have had the whitelist for a long time, unlike every other species except dionaea, vaurcae doesn't get waves or floods of apps. So this really won't be a problem, we won't ever need 3 fucking whitelists for one type of job, an alt-title, no less.

[JKJudgeX]

Quote

But why WOULD you fucking try to fight an 8ft tall bug in Security with mandibles capable of biting your head off? If you find it concerning, stay out of melee range if they're bigger than you because that'd be tactically worse icly if you didn't.

I wouldn't, and that's the nature of what makes something overpowered... someone can select a thing that makes them pretty much off-limits for combat for the rest of the crew, and nothing stops that person from instigating said combat.  

It's unnecessary, lends itself to powergaming, and adds absolutely nothing in terms of good RP besides "I am bigger and badder than everyone else because of my whitelist", and those kinds of things should be removed because it's just more mary-sue garbage, IMO.

And I was not talking about using the hivenet to plot things, which can and has been done on many, many occasions - I was talking moreso the other way around... reporting things.  Most other crewmembers can be kidnapped and silenced very easily.  Why is this advantage NEEDED?  What does it add?

These kinds of little issues add up very quickly, from being a giant thing that can bite the crew's head off, to being able to essentially always communicate.  It's just out of scale, and I would prefer the mechanical differences to be slimmed down greatly across all crew, synthetic, xeno, and so on.

I would try to fight that 8 foot bug, by the way, if it was maybe an antagonist and it was my job to fight it?  Or if it had snapped and decided to start murdering crew for whatever reason?  Or, if I had an antagonist role and I was doing something else and for some reason it attacked me to stop me?  And a number of other situations where I have very little or no choice in the matter, and am left with a huge disadvantage just because somebody regurgitated half a page of lore into a whitelist app?  No thanks.  

The assumption that the mistake is yours if you end up tangling with a physically overpowered foe is flawed - players who have those advantages are definitely going to seek to use them, and unless you're also playing something overpowered, you don't have a special way of escaping it.  I've been chased down by Unathi security as a Wizard before.  I blew his arm off with a fireball.  He didn't fear RP because he was a warrior-culture species and decided that it would be okay to continue running at me and killed me.  That's just one example of a ton.  I'm sure they happen daily.  The mechanical advantages should be reduced/removed as they add literally nothing positive to the game and can be extremely disruptive when used.

That being said, were those advantages to be removed, then having the flavor of xeno races around would be great, and I think that applies to the Ta as well as any other kind of Vaurca, Tajaran, Unathi, etc, and I see absolutely no reason to specifically pick on the Ta subspecies because it seems like the players ho have been joining as them are putting forth the effort to inclusively RP them, and I don't think they have any additional mechanical advantages, so, +1 for keeping Ta (albeit with potential graphics updates as mentioned above).

EDIT: and yes, the two whitelist thing SHOULD keep them from showing up each and every single round, so... that's good too.


 

Edited September 15, 2019 by JKJudgeX

[Bygonehero]

12 minutes ago, JKJudgeX said:

These kinds of little issues add up very quickly, from being a giant thing that can bite the crew's head off, to being able to essentially always communicate.  It's just out of scale, and I would prefer the mechanical differences to be slimmed down greatly across all crew, synthetic, xeno, and so on.

The headbite thing was something we specifically asked to be removed from Ta, and could easily be done still, hopefully.

[VVipEdout]

The fact that one of the main points in the discussion is 'it's a big non-humanoid bug with wings' is tempting to see as a lack of creativity or as a tendency to see one's own likely reaction as what a character in 2461 would think, but it would better be said that the Vaurca consular being alien and unusual is a bonus. It showcases the fact there's facets of lore unfamiliar and even distant from what one would expect from a typical sci-fi setting, or that there are potential stories and character concepts beyond Sol so and Adhomai such. The presence of a representative practically designed from birth for diplomatic tasks, with near-unfaltering loyalty from their own brood, opens avenues for the typical character to take an interest in one of the more alien species in the setting; it would be far less interesting to attempt to sit down and try to elucidate the smallest part about Vaurca culture when your only regular coworker of said species barely grasps social cues, or is infinitely more dedicated to their own work than to socialisation. The Zo'ra consular, as any other consular should be, is an RP role that exists solely to create interaction and use the lore of their faction in creative ways. To remove or rework it would be to, essentially, determine the species' lore excessively alien and then say said strangeness has no place ingame beyond an event once every blue moon.

[Nantei]

Vaurca lore is my weakest subject, so I will not touch the lore-based arguments.

That said, I feel the Ta are an overwhelmingly positive addition to the server, actually the only consular I regularly enjoy. Even as a non-vaurca it is very fun to interact with them. They feel unique, and alien in extremely positive ways. People who complain about races being human+? This is what not human+ looks like. And it's awesome.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Yeah people beg all the time for more alien aliens 

"Give us weird aliens!"

"Ok here"

"Not that one!"

OMG

[Naelynn]

Right,
I was asked to post my opinion to this threat, and after reading about 2/3rds of it I can sort of see why.

I'd like to highlight two things:
1) I have never read any vaurca lore page. All I know about them is the 'everyman' knowledge.
2) I have encountered vaurca consulars a few times.

Because of this, I would like to ask to not be judged in this post based of how the lore is written and understand that this is merely from a perspective of a crewmember who has very little idea of how Vaurca actually got where they are.
_____________________________________________________________________________

When I first met a breeder, I was like holy shit - because it felt so random for a 'breeder' of the species to be on station, unprotected. As far as I know, they are rare and always kept protected - kind of like how the breeding bee in a bee hive is kept safe, so I was awed that the devs were doing a little event like this, despite there being no guards for the breeder.

The second time I realized they are just a vaurca consular - and that is cool AF, but it felt a little off too - Why would a member of the hive important enough to it's survival be sent off to some hellhole? After reading some of the points in this threat, it seems to be because 'they're more sociable than the other castes' - This makes no sense to me. I thought Vaurca are raised in VR for a direct purpose, and while some act stupid, they as a species are not stupid.... So why wouldn't some 'normal' be better at communicating than a important breeder-mom bug? ... so the only real answer seems to be 'This is an important member of our hive, we trust you with her safety' - And I think that gesture is cool.

Few rounds later, I was on my paramedic and was responding to a bar situation when I come upon a Breeder standing in middle of a combat zone between an angry ipc bartender with a shotgun and a cadet who's absolutely getting rekt and shouting for help [which wasn't coming]. And the... important mama bug was fighting? This annoyed me personally - surely the bug is important to her hive, surely she cannot risk getting destroyed in a fight - that would destroy her value to the hive and it's queen

I always thought that breeders are more of a last-resort fighters that the hive will only ever use if it's in really bad situation.
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And this is where I have to talk about not my experience, but their mechanical functions.

Breeders are
1) Impossible to grab (4x as hard as a human to grab, 3.5x as hard as a skrell to rgab)
2) Can break cuffs
3) Have a massive (larger than human) stamina pool, have low-cost sprinting, and have fast stamina recovery. What?
4) Cannot slip.
5) Have natural weapons
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Overall: I think they are cool, but me as a 'normal' player - I don't really understand why them specifically. I'd like them to stay, I genuinely do think they are a cool idea, but I need an explanation that Mr. Joe Average the Janitor will be able to make some heads or tails out of.

Furthermore, if they are to stay, they need across the board nerf - they are supposed to be mama bugs, not frontline soldiers, so why do their stats remind me of a hunter-killer?